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JenniferMaxwell
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50 posted 06-13-2010 11:06 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Michelle and Barack didnít make that statement about 27 concerts, Dardick did and seems you agreed with him since you mentioned them several times. Donít you think before you trash someone for doing something you should have a least a little concrete evidence to support your claim?
Denise
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51 posted 06-13-2010 11:11 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Is that the philosophy you live by, Jen?

I didn't trash anybody. I simply said that in these bad economic times they should not be wasting taxpayer money.
JenniferMaxwell
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52 posted 06-13-2010 11:27 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

It's what I try to do when I post in a discussion forum, check the facts as best I can from different sources.
serenity blaze
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53 posted 06-14-2010 12:49 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thank you, Denise.

I hope I'm not upping the temperature to the point of discomfort, but I have to ask--do you not see a parallel (or the parallel(s of our own country's successful bid for independance with what is now the resulting consequence of decades of foreign dispute as side-affected self-interest on our accord, as we dabbled, successfully, to encourage other countries to end our cold wars as we espouse ourself as a nation which embraces not only freedom of religion, but freedom from religion?

Don't get me wrong--things are good here--really good--even in this economy--but surely, you do understand how relieved I am to see a president that was elected without doubt, address issues currently instead of the stammering inadequateblustering of a poor teleprompter reader attempting a swagger of damage control--uaually self-inflicted damage at that.

I confess I do not understand these times--we seem to all agree that government is too big--until something too big for our government to control happens...

Come July, I'm not sure whether to wave a flag, or kowtow to a corporate-sponsored event that puts on a pretense for the consumers located in the U.S.

I got my own feelings hurt when I posted a poem and a fellow Louisianian asked me how I liked our "communist" president now? <--paraphrased, but it's there...

and if I hadn't been blind-sided by a comment of total kindness and affection, I would have asked my fellow if he investigates the product where he sends his hard-earned energy--his DOLLARS--how much of his hard to find monies are spent on totally U.S. product?

I won't even pretend that I do that--we have no idea what is outsourced from "Amerckan" corp. to other countries, and until we can proudly proclaim that we buy American, support American corp.? We're full of...

fill in the blank.

But I'm not mad at you, I'm just mad at the guy who suggested I support Communism because I support our Commander-in-chief, while the same guy who suggested he had some inkling of my ideology probably bought at least a gross of plastic Chinese beads made by little girls for a salary of two bucks a month who had no idea what women and men will do for such baubles...way..over..HERE.



But I do go on, now don't I?

*shrug*

It was my birthday.

SOMEBODY should took me dancin'...or, um, somethin'...

serenity blaze
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54 posted 06-14-2010 01:57 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

ooooh--http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html?no_interstitial

Could it be the verge of a trade agreement?

tsk...I dunno.

They've got oil andlithium.

*helpless shrug* My lithium levels are still fine despite the rumors in my head--er...anybody wanna check my oil?

Heh.

(Sorry Denise--seems I've had to amuse m'self tonight!)

Bob K
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55 posted 06-14-2010 03:30 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



    
quote:

What part of "I have a full time job" to attempt do in-depth investigative work, as you have suggested, which would probably consume every waking hour for the rest of my life and even then would not yield anything acceptable to you because each thing I did manage to uncover, you would want sourced ten different ways from Sunday. Life would be so much simpler, wouldn't it, if we actually had an open, honest and transparent administration?



     It certainly would be better if we had a more open, honest and transparent administration, Denise.  I have some questions I'd like answered myself.  These would be about Bagram Air Base, The Treaty on The Rights of The Child, why there has been no appropriate clarification on torture as U.S. policy and why there has been no legal action taken against those people who sanctioned its use during the last administration and those who may continue its use during the current administration.  Those are the beginning of my list.  I have made no secret of my problems with this administration and with at least some of its policies.  Have I said anything thus far that is actually news to you?

     I'd be surprised if it was.

     Perhaps you think that my time is less fully taken up than yours?  Sorry.  It's also private.  Sorry again.

     Even if I spent my time in riotous debauchery, I would still be feel obligated to keep those things I talk about within the realm of the verifiable unless I made a point of being fanciful and people were aware of it.  I don't demand that you verify things a hundred ways from Sunday.  When you go for a dictionary, I don't hold out for the OED, for example; all I want is something that's generally thought of as good enough for a grown up discussion.

     When folks want source material around here, they frequently get fairly picky.  I'm not the guy who runs down the Main Stream Media, Denise, as though they had no virtues to match their many flaws.  I try to be very clear about who I am quoting.  If folks have difficulty with my sources, I'm happy to talk about them.  Many of them are Mainstream Media, which you, among others, have spent a fair number of electrons knocking.  I make a point of also using some Right Wing and neutral media as well.

     All it takes to satisfy me is use of reliable sourcing and a solid attempt at getting at the real story, whatever that happens to be.  Some right wing publications are good at that.  I've spoken of Janes Defense Weekly before and of The Economist, both of which have sources that put the national intelligence services of some nation states to shame.  Both of which are excellent sources.

     I should read both more frequently.

     The thing that I find about this administration is that it seems substantially more open, more honest and more transparent than any of the last several administrations.  Perhaps you might care to suggest an administration that was more open, honest and transparent than this one within your memory.  The one that comes closest in my mind is that of Bush the Elder, and he was driven out of office by the loathing and disrespect of his own party as much as by any other factor.  At the time, if you'll remember, much was made of his connection with the CIA and there was a fair amount of international and national distrust of the man and his motives.

     Perhaps you're comparing President Obama's openness, honesty and transparency with that of Bush II, who was forced to acknowledge lying about many of his statements before leaving office.  President Clinton?  President Reagan, who was forced to admit lying on purpose about Iran/Contra in fact but not feeling that there was a lie in his heart. ( As a psychotherapist, I can't tell you how many cheating spouses I've heard trying to get away with the same line.)  President Carter may certainly have been as honest, open and transparent, but somehow I don't think he'd be up there on your scale.  Perhaps I'm misjudging you there.  And President Nixon?

     Should we go on?

     I suspect you're comparing President Obama with something else, and not with something or somebody real.

     And, yeah, I'd like more from him, too.

quote:

There are enough other ways that this administration is wasting taxpayer money every day, even if the concert schedules for the past 17 months are nothing out of the ordinary, which I tend to doubt given the increased wasteful spending with the so-called stimulas [sic], cash for clunkers, cash for appliances, the subsidising [sic] of the auto industry, sweetheart deals to unions, confiscation of our healthcare system, and the planned continuation of the confiscation and resdistribution [sic]  of wealth since his election.



     Lotta big words there, Denise.  Lotta nasty insinuations.  You can't prove the concert stuff, but saying baseless stuff against a public figure isn't libel.  Maybe it's baseless, maybe it isn't baseless, and you're too overworked to check it out.  Saying vile sounding things that you can't or won't prove, so what?   Who's going to stop you?  It's only the guy's reputation, and you're already sure that his reputation's no good because you listen to other people who say the same thing, and the facts are too tiring to get to.

     Not too tired to keep repeating the same nasty stuff, though.

     Confiscation and redistribution of wealth?

     You voted for the Republicans who voted for the Tax Cut for the wealthy, didn't you?  

     If that's true, you're not against confiscation and redistribution of wealth, you're simply against letting some of that money go to the poor.  It appears that the money that goes to the rich at the expense of the economy doesn't bother you at all.

    
Bob K
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56 posted 06-14-2010 04:01 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:

He hasn't done anything to earn my respect as a leader. But maybe I am overlooking something noteworthy that he has done for this country in the past year and a half that you could point me to. And his world-wide apology tour doesn't qualify.



     Maybe you are, but then youíd need to be the judge of that.  Here are some possibilities to consider:
    
http://rchristm.newsvine.com/_news/2009/12/03/3582337-a-list-of-the-initiatives-and-accomplishments-of-president-obama-and-the-democratic-congress-january-2009-through-november-200 9-
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2009/1102/one-year-after-his-election-what-has-obama-achieved/(page)/2
http://www.slate.com/id/2236708
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1984460,00.html
serenity blaze
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57 posted 06-14-2010 05:29 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

*scratchin' my head*

(Or even Bob's)



Honestly, if you are going to pick on Presidential Entertainment, you'll have to give me the ballz of the Gollywood Libertarians swilling to charge a fee to fawn at his feet. <--THAT is total sarcasm.

(yer an interesting guy, Bob)

but yeah, Denise, most people just kinda show up and tap dance for the white house.

?
Denise
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58 posted 06-14-2010 09:24 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Happy Birthday, Karen. I hope you enjoyed it! We may never agree politcally, but I'm not mad at you either.

I'll have to try to emulate you more in the future, Jen.

Vile, Bob? What in the world did I say that was vile? And no, I voted for the Republicans who voted for tax cuts for everybody.
JenniferMaxwell
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59 posted 06-14-2010 12:13 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Yes! Happy Belated Birthday, Karen! Had I known, I would have taken you dancing.

Bob K
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60 posted 06-14-2010 07:02 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Except the tax cuts the Republicans voted the super-rich tended to cost the country money, Denise, and the tax cuts those who weren't so well off got ended up at least breaking even.  I went over that before with references in previous postings.  The tax cuts for the very rich tend to go into the bank or into long term investments.  The net effect is that they don't circulate and have little if any multiplier effect on the economy.  They cost the country about 25% of every dollar in lost revenues on top of the cut.  Tax cuts for the poor actually make money for the treasury, about 25% over the cost of the cut.  For every buck the government cuts, they get a buck twenty-five back in stimulus.

     The Republicans say they give tax cuts for everybody, but they're damaging the country with the cuts for the rich and they're trying to help balance that off unsuccessfully with cuts for the poor.

     And they've got you believing in free lunches that are yummy for everyone.

     TANSTAAFL, Denise.  Never has been, unlikely there ever will be.
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61 posted 06-14-2010 08:21 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

What happens when the tax rates go up for the rich and jobs are lost and jobs that may have been created aren't? What does that do to the economy? Jobs aren't being created now partly due to the fact that the job creators know that the tax cuts are ending in January and going up in other areas. Everyone is circling the wagons and hunkering down for the economic tsunami that is most likely on its way.

I don't belong to the party that believes in free lunches, Bob. I have no idea how you could confuse me with a Democrat.

Again, what did I say that was vile?

*And I fixed my typos and misspellings to save you the trouble of pointing them out, but if I missed any, please feel free to let me no [sic]*

[This message has been edited by Denise (06-14-2010 09:44 PM).]

Bob K
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62 posted 06-15-2010 01:47 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     The "vile-sounding things" I was speaking about appeared in quotation marks directly before my comments, Denise.

     You heard "vile."

     I said, "vile-sounding" because that is exactly how they sounded to me.  This was the passage that provoked my ire.  

quote:

There are enough other ways that this administration is wasting taxpayer money every day, even if the concert schedules for the past 17 months are nothing out of the ordinary, which I tend to doubt given the increased wasteful spending with the so-called stimulas [sic], cash for clunkers, cash for appliances, the subsidising [sic] of the auto industry, sweetheart deals to unions, confiscation of our healthcare system, and the planned continuation of the confiscation and resdistribution [sic]  of wealth since his election.



     1) You state that you cannot prove that the accusations that you make about the man are true in part or in their entirety, then go ahead and suggest that you wish to assert these accusations anyway.  2) You go ahead to say why you wish to go ahead and make these assertions.  You wish to make them, "given," you say,"the increased wasteful spending with the so-called stimulas [sic][.]"  You make this assertion about the "stimulas[sic]" as though this were settled fact.  Clearly it is to your mind, but the reality is this is your belief, and you are making an unsupported assertion here.  That would be, from my point of view, another unsupported assertion.  You believe that the money for jump starting purchases of American cars and similar expenditures was wasted, and your tone is disdainful in the extreme.

     You have every right to disagree and to have your own opinion.  I have a right to expect to see you back that up, and to be upset when you don't.  I see that sort of thing as simple smear tactics, about the level of calling the fat kid stupid and hoping that everybody else will join the pig pile.  I want to see what the facts are. I will make my own judgements based on the facts and not on what everybody says is supposed to be true, thank you very much.

     3) I would like to know what health care system has been taken away from whom, for example, when you talk about the health care system being confiscated.  What health care system do you own or did you ever own?  What ownership share has been taken away from you, and by whom?  If it has been confiscated, who is it that now owns it?

    4) And which sweetheart deals have the increasingly less powerful unions been getting from from whom?

     You have been making a series of unsubstantiated assertions that I have been objecting to on a more or less continuous basis for months.  I have brought up absolutely nothing new here.  Near as I can tell, you don't even understand my objections.

     You asked me what I thought might be a decent answer to your question about President Obama's accomplishments.  I offered some fairly detailed references with fairly detailed replies that certainly went well beyond your assertion of Nothing.

     What is your reaction?

Denise
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63 posted 06-15-2010 09:23 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think most folks who aren't 'collectivist-minded' see the new healthcare law as a confiscation of our healthcare system, Bob. Here is more government insertion into our lives:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=166597

Obama has done nothing in my estimation that has been good for this country, but much that has done harm.

We'll never agree on that, of course, no matter how many links we provide each other. I see him as a Socialist, at best, you see him as Republican-Lite. I think that says it all about our divergent political views.
Bob K
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64 posted 06-15-2010 08:22 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     And yet I offered several lists that offered considerable detail, including material that I believe is material that should meet with your approval, even at your end of the spectrum.

     I am not asking that you love or even like the man, Denise.  I am not even asking that you stop despising him.

quote:


He hasn't done anything to earn my respect as a leader. But maybe I am overlooking something noteworthy that he has done for this country in the past year and a half that you could point me to. And his world-wide apology tour doesn't qualify.



     But your statement was on the order of your being unable to think of any accomplishment of his.  I have a problem with that.  It suggests that there havenít been any; and that, Denise, I cannot allow to go unchallenged.  I include here items from a list on the web site noted below.  I have not printed the whole list, though I happen to like it.  Should you wish to see the whole list, feel free.

  I do believe that at least some of the items Iíve left in my edited list are items that even you would agree would be worth doing, and decent accomplishments for any President.  

     You might even feel, justifiably in my opinion, that they would have been worth doing under the administration of any previous president, no matter which party he (and someday, one might imagine, she) might belong to.  They have been divided up by areas of concern.  I have simply eliminated some that might bore you or which you might not agree with.  Iím certain Iíve gotten some, but I hope, not all of them wrong.

     If I have gotten them all wrong and there are some items here that you think are items that shouldnít have been done or arenít worth doing, I am sorry for having wasted your time.
http://rchristm.newsvine.com/_news/2009/12/03/3582337-a-list-of-the-initiatives-and-accomplishments-of-president-obama-and-the-democratic-congress-january-2009-through-november-200 9-


Governance initiatives and accomplishments:

1.Established a National Performance Officer charged with saving the federal government money and making federal operations more efficient. Reports to the deputy director of the Office of Management and Budgets. Specific duties require finding new efficient ways of operating.

2.Ordered all federal agencies to undertake a study and make recommendations for ways to cut future spending.

3.Ordered a review of all federal operations to identify and cut wasteful spending and practices.

4.Initiated changes in federal procurement policies and procedures.

5.Implemented 'PayGo' procedures by telling congress that no bill will be signed if there is not a way to pay for it (Cuts in other programs, increased taxes, etc.).

6.Initiated more press conferences and town halls as well as providing more media access than previous administration.

7.Encouraged greater media access (CSpan) of congressional hearings and meetings.

8.Insuring that the White House and federal government respect the Freedom of Information Act.

9.Instructed all federal agencies to promote openness and transparency as much as possible.

10.Placed limits on lobbyist's access to the White House.

11.Placed limits on White House aides working for lobbyists after their tenure in the administration.

12.Required lobbyists to be removed from federal advisory study panels.

13.Suspended acquisition of expensive fleet of 28 new (foreign built) Marine One helicopters that was projected to be over budget by billions of dollars. A new domestically produced modified version of current production civilian helicopters is being looked at by the Pentagon.

14.Limited salaries of senior White House aides and cut maximum salary to $100,000.

15.Returned money authorized for refurbishment of White House offices and private living quarters and paid for redecoration of White House living quarters out of his own pocket.

Economic initiatives and accomplishments:


2.Instituted enforcement for equal pay for women. Signed the Lilly Ledbetter bill in January..

5.Improved loan guarantees to small businesses and lowered small business loan interest rates.

6.Initiated policies that allow the public to meet with federal housing insurers to refinance (the new plan can be completed in one day) a mortgage if they are having trouble paying. Has further reinforced the policy to improve usage of the program.

7.Instituted a new focus on reducing mortgage fraud.

8.Reinforced previous administrations' financial and banking rescue plan to insure greater transparency and reporting on the program.

9.Closed offshore tax safe havens.

10.Negotiated deal with Swiss banks to permit US government to gain access to records of tax evaders and criminals.

11.Ended the previous policy of offering tax benefits to corporations who outsource American jobs. Initiated a new policy is to promote in-sourcing to bring jobs back.

12.Ended the previous practice of protecting credit card companies. Replaced it with new consumer protections from credit card industry's predatory practices. Moved dates of implementation forward when credit card companies arbitrarily upped rates ahead of planned reform date.

Education initiatives and accomplishments:

1.Has initiated a major push for education reform that includes bipartisan support.

2.Has increased student loans while reducing the costs to the federal government by 87 billion dollars over ten years.

3.Students struggling to make college loan payments can now have their loans refinanced.

5.Provided new funds for school construction in stimulus program.

6.Initiated 'Race to the Top' education grant program for states that develop strong new programs.

7.Announced 'Educate to Innovate', a public/private partnership to put 236 million dollars into STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) education.

Energy initiatives and accomplishments:


2.Initiated energy saving retrofits for government buildings and facilities.

5.Announced plans to purchase fuel efficient American-made fleet for the federal government.

6.Established new CAFE standards and rules that eliminate the need for individual states to enact their own higher standards.
Manufacturers welcomed the change because it eliminated multiple standards.

7.Has initiated energy reform legislation development.

8.Energy producing plants must begin preparing to produce 15% of their energy from renewable sources.

9.Announced the long-term planning and development of a national energy grid.

10.Announced the development of renewable sources and cleaner, more efficient energy production.

11.Instituted studies in six western states by the BLM and the Interior Dept. to see if they can support large-scale solar installations.

Foreign Relations initiatives and accomplishments:

1.Re-established diplomacy and the state department as a significant factor in foreign policy.

5.Closing secret CIA detention facilities in Eastern Europe and elsewhere.

6.Ended the previous administration's torture policy and returned US to compliance with the Geneva Convention standards.

7.Restarted the nuclear nonproliferation talks and building back up the nuclear inspection infrastructure and protocols. Started this effort as a senator with Senator Lugar (R) Indiana.

10.Authorized discussions with Myanmar and mission by Senator Jim Webb to secure the release of an American held captive.

11.Renewed loan guarantees for Israel.

Global Warming & Environmental initiatives and accomplishments:

4.Reversed Bush administration policy and halted new uranium-mining claims near the Grand Canyon, proposed new preserves for wild mustangs and funded the expansion of the Petrified Forest National Park

5.Restored protections under the Endangered Species Act which had been removed by a last-minute rule change in the final days of the Bush administration.

6.Recommitted to clean up of superfund sites.

7.Ordered the EPA to reconsider its decision to deny California a waiver under the Clean Air Act enabling California and 17 states to impose stricter limits on greenhouse gas emissions from motor vehicles.

8.Reversed the Bush rule that opened the door to mountaintop removal coal mining and canceled several individual mountaintop mining permits.

9.Put offshore drilling and oil shale exploration on hold and restored protections for public lands.

10.Announced a new initiative to lease U.S. coastal waters for the purpose of generating electricity from wind and ocean currents.

11.Reaffirmed science and the rule of law as the standards by which federal environmental decisions shall be made.


Health and Health care reform initiatives and accomplishments:

1.Initiated reform of the nation's healthcare system which is the most expensive in the world yet leaves more than 40 million without health insurance and millions more under insured.

2.Ended previous policy of cutting the FDA and circumventing FDA rules.

3.Established independent commission to make recommendations on slowing the costs of Medicare.

4.Expanded the SCHIP program to cover health care for 4 million more children.

5.Removed restrictions on embryonic stem-cell research and initiated federal support for new biomedical research.

6.Provided new federal funding for science and research labs.

7.Expanded vaccination programs.

8.Ended the previous practice of forbidding Medicare from negotiating with drug manufacturers for cheaper drugs. The federal government is now realizing hundreds of millions in savings thus lowering the drug costs for seniors. Also requiring providers of Medicare drug plans to be more transparent in their marketing so seniors can better evaluate different plans.

9.Signed tobacco legislation in June that has the FDA now regulating tobacco products.

Homeland Security initiatives and accomplishments:


2.Insured immediate and efficient response to the floods in North Dakota and other natural disasters.

3.Ordered a review of hurricane and natural disaster preparedness.

4.Ordered a release of funds and cutting of red tape that was holding up Katrina recovery effort.

Infrastructure initiatives and accomplishments:

1.Increased infrastructure spending (roads, bridges, power plants) after years of neglect.

2.Provided funds for high-speed, broadband Internet access to K-12 schools.

3.Initiated efforts to expand broadband Internet access to rural areas.

Military initiatives and accomplishments:

1.Started the withdrawal of US troops from Iraq.

2.Changed the failing/status quo military command in Afghanistan.

3.Deployed 17,000 additional troops to Afghanistan in March.
Request sat on President Bush's desk for months.

4.New Afghan War policy that limits aerial bombing and prioritizes aid, development of infrastructure, diplomacy, and good government practices by Afghans.

5.Ended the previous stop-loss policy that kept soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan longer than their enlistment date.

6.Insured that better body armor is now provided to our troops.

7.Reviewed Afghanistan war effort and increased troop commitment to 30,000 plus. Required an exit strategy and committed to the time plan outlined in General McChrystal's review.

8.Increasing pay and benefits for military personnel.

9.Improved housing for military personnel.

10.Initiating a new policy to promote federal hiring of military spouses.

11.Improved conditions at Walter Reed Military Hospital and other military hospitals. Actually started this effort as a senator.

12.Families of fallen soldiers have expenses covered to be on hand when the body arrives at Dover AFB.

13.Ended media blackout on war casualties; reporting full information.

14.Ended media blackout on covering the return of fallen soldiers to Dover AFB; the media is now permitted to do so pending adherence to respectful rules and approval of fallen soldier's family.

15.Started the process of reforming and restructuring the military 20 years after the Cold War to develop a more modern fighting force designed for expected future requirements. The process includes new procurement policies, increasing size of military, new technology and cyber units and operations, etc.

16.Ended previous policy of awarding no-bid defense contracts.

17.Started phasing out the expensive F-22 war plane and other outdated weapons systems, which were never used nor needed in Iraq/Afghanistan.

18.Eliminated the expensive and unproven Bush European missile defense program and replaced it with a known workable solution that cuts $1.4 billion in 2010.

Science and research initiatives and accomplishments:

1.Proposed increasing the amount of government and private money spent on scientific research to three percent of the nation's economic output.

2.Ended previous practice of having White House aides rewrite scientific and environmental rules, regulations, and reports.

Anti-terrorism initiatives and accomplishments:

1.Successful release of US captain held by Somali pirates; authorized the SEALS to do their job.

2.US Navy increasing patrols off Somali coast.

3.Initiating trials of remaining Guantanamo detainees.

Veterans initiatives and accomplishments:

1.Appointed a proven leader to head the VA in General Shinseki and improved benefits for veterans with the largest veterans' benefits increases in decades.

2.Signed a bill with significant improvements in health care, information systems, and staffing to insure that veterans receive the benefits to which they are entitled.

3.Initiated a new GI Bill to provide college tuition to recent veterans.

4.Authorized construction/opening of additional health centers to care for veterans.
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65 posted 06-15-2010 09:10 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I read the information in the links previously, Bob.

Great list of the Democratic Talking Points.

I got a particular chuckle out of:

Encouraged greater media access (CSpan) of congressional hearings and meetings. (except for unimportant things like healthcare legislation hearings.)

Initiated more press conferences and town halls as well as providing more media access than previous administration. (he just had his first press conference in, what, 9 months or so, last week, and his first address to the naton from the oval office tonight? Most of his town halls have been staged events with preselected attendees.)

Implemented 'PayGo' procedures by telling congress that no bill will be signed if there is not a way to pay for it (Cuts in other programs, increased taxes, etc.) (while he has plans for another 80 billion for another stimulus and has just requested another 50 billion for aid to States in distress. I guess we'll be seeing huge tax increases real soon.)

Insuring that the White House and federal government respect the Freedom of Information Act. (ahahahahaha...show us your credentials, sir.)

Placed limits on lobbyist's access to the White House. (I think the nation's supply of paper was depleted from all the waivers that he issued.)

Successful release of US captain held by Somali pirates; authorized the SEALS to do their job. (he delayed his authorization for 3 days while lives were at stake.)

I'm sorry, Bob, I'm not impressed.
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66 posted 06-15-2010 09:11 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

2.Ordered all federal agencies to undertake a study and make recommendations for ways to cut future spending.

Have they produced anything or cut spending?

3.Ordered a review of all federal operations to identify and cut wasteful spending and practices.

Have they cut any wasteful spending?

5.Implemented 'PayGo' procedures by telling congress that no bill will be signed if there is not a way to pay for it (Cuts in other programs, increased taxes, etc.).

That's a joke...they have done just the opposite.

6.Initiated more press conferences and town halls as well as providing more media access than previous administration.

Obama then went for weeks with no press conferences whatsoever.

7.Encouraged greater media access (CSpan) of congressional hearings and meetings.

..And then shut them out of health care conferences.

10.Placed limits on lobbyist's access to the White House.

and has set a record for lobbyists and spending

12.Required lobbyists to be removed from federal advisory study panels.

...and then made exceptions.

Bob, you are simply listing things which show how Obama has failed on his promises and actions. Thank you.
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67 posted 06-16-2010 02:00 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     And you are 1) comparing these to what?  and 2) checking out the fact-checks that the site says it has checked these things off against or not? And 3) I notice that you cherry picked some of these that you didn't like out of a very long list and failed to comment on others.  

     Denise's comment was not that there were some things Obama didn't do or weren't worth remembering.  Denise actually chose the far more difficult to defend position that she couldn't think of any of them.  For a woman who says she has no extra time on her hands, that's a very unwise position to take, since it obligates her to take on all comers, doesn't it?  Or acknowledge that her statement was ill considered in its breadth, which for a woman who claims that her time is limited, it certainly was.

    
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68 posted 06-16-2010 02:52 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     To take a single example, your first, Mike

quote:

2.Ordered all federal agencies to undertake a study and make recommendations for ways to cut future spending.
[\quote]

     The thing that Denise commented on was that she felt the President had done nothing worth remembering.  You do not, I notice, dispute, that he did in fact, issue the order for the studies.  The claim for the thing that he had done was exactly that, no less, no more.  He did that.  It's true.  It's a thing in itself.  I haven't checked further.

     Perhaps you have.  If so, I'm interested in your results.  If not, that's all right with me as well.  I have limited myself in this case to the things that The President has done.

     Have they produced anything or cut spending?

     I don't know.  Whether they have or not is another question, though, and as far as this question goes, it appears that the positive answer is one you would rather discount than acknowledge.  It is, however, true.

     Let's look at another example, your second ó

[quote]
3.Ordered a review of all federal operations to identify and cut wasteful spending and practices.



     President Obama, the site folks say, did order this review.  I notice you do not dispute this.  The site folks claim they have fact-checked this claim.  You do not dispute the factuality of the claim.  Rather than dispute that P{resident Obama has done what the Site claims he has done, you attempt to change the subject to something where you may dispute a claim that you are saying President Obama should have made.

     This one:

     Have they cut any wasteful spending?

     Alas, Mike, You believe that the president should have made that claim for reasons of your own.  The fact that he did not make such a claim doesn't mean that the goernment has or has not cut wasteful spending.  You haven't researched it for us, and the discussion isn't about that.  It's about the thing that the site claims that President Obama did in fact do, and which you do not dispute.  

     I would wager that they have cut some wasteful spending, though you and I would probably have quite a go-around about what wasteful spending is.  If you have a look at some of the other projects on the list, you'll notice some cuts on there, but again, that's not what we were talking about, is it?  I was responding to Denise's request for examples of things that the President did do.

     And he did order a review of all federal operations to identify and cut wasteful spending and practices, didn't he?

Next,

quote:

5.Implemented 'PayGo' procedures by telling congress that no bill will be signed if there is not a way to pay for it (Cuts in other programs, increased taxes, etc.).



     Again, he did make these statement, didn't he?

     Here, however, things seem to be a bit different, because, while you don't deny that he made this statement, you do say that his statement is really a travesty of the truth.

"That's a joke...they have done just the opposite."

     While you may be right on this matter, I can't claim to say that I know you are right.  You'd have to offer me at least a single well documented example in which the man signed a law that didn't have a means of payment stipulated.  I'm easy to convince.  If it's as obvious as you say, there should be well documented examples in all the decent publications.

     Shall we try another?

quote:

6.Initiated more press conferences and town halls as well as providing more media access than previous administration.



       This is true.

     What do you do to make this sound bad?  Oh yes!  

Obama then went for weeks with no press conferences whatsoever.

     So you don't dispute that President Obama had more press conferences than President Bush.  Perhaps even more by a year and a half into his administration to make President Bush look a bit on the withholding side.  The point was that President Obama was supposed to have more than President Bush and he did, right?

      I've noticed that you seem to keep doing this thing.  You try to make the president look bad by saying he didn't do something you think he ought to do that's different than what he said he'd do.  He promised x and you say he's a failure because he didn't do a good job at y.

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69 posted 06-16-2010 07:49 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

All you have said here, Bob, is that he did indeed make statements. Big whopee. He made lots of statements, in the same way me made statements and promises in his campaign. I don't think people are that interested in statements. WHat they want to see is positive results from those statements.

" don't know.  Whether they have or not is another question, though, and as far as this question goes, it appears that the positive answer is one you would rather discount than acknowledge.  It is, however, true."l

Again, you do the same. You run from any question of whether any actions were taken and use "truthful statment" as to mean he said them, nothing more. Once again, big whoopee.

" So you don't dispute that President Obama had more press conferences than President Bush.  Perhaps even more by a year and a half into his administration to make President Bush look a bit on the withholding side. "

Sure he did at the beginning. He was trying to ram his agenda down the public's throat and needed the silver tongue to keep going, while people still believed him. When they began ro stop, however, when things got a little rough and his popularity started a nosedive, all of a sudden the press conferences stopped to the point that the press was saying "Wha' hoppin'?"

"While you may be right on this matter, I can't claim to say that I know you are right.  You'd have to offer me at least a single well documented example in which the man signed a law that didn't have a means of payment stipulated.  I'm easy to convince.  If it's as obvious as you say, there should be well documented examples in all the decent publications."

Surely you jest! Look at the debt. Look how we are broke. Look at the spending he has done. Explain to me how deficit neutral can plungle us into the highest national debt we have ever sxperienced. I don't have to offer anything. All you have to do is open your eyes and view things that are right in front of your face.

"I'm easy to convince"....please don't tell me you actually typed that, Bob. LOLOLOL!  
Bob K
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70 posted 06-17-2010 03:09 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:
  Bob said:

'While you may be right on this matter, I can't claim to say that I know you are right.  You'd have to offer me at least a single well documented example in which the man signed a law that didn't have a means of payment stipulated.  I'm easy to convince.  If it's as obvious as you say, there should be well documented examples in all the decent publications.' [quotations in Mike's text]

And Mike Replies:

"Surely you jest! Look at the debt. Look how we are broke. Look at the spending he has done. Explain to me how deficit neutral can plungle us into the highest national debt we have ever sxperienced. I don't have to offer anything. All you have to do is open your eyes and view things that are right in front of your face." [Bob has supplied the quotation marks here]



     The truth is often monsterous, Mike, like Dracula; and is not always visible to everybody who looks into the glass.  This is why I requested it be pointed out clearly and specifically and unmistakably to me by your hand.  I have no doubt that we are in debt, but even bail-outs may be structured in debt neutral ways, as loans with scheduals for pay-backs and with penalties for non-payment.  You may remember this is how we ended up with GM.  They thought we'd let the debt ride, and we didn't because President Obama was serious about the debt-neutral aspect of the bill.

     You'd like the ability to kvetch about it whether we took the debt-neutral part seriously or not, I know.  I'm just reminding you of the history.  

     So, forgive me for asking you to give me examples, but it may be that things you'd offer as examples may not actually be examples, as in the situation I've just offered.

     And of course you don't have to offer anything, but then you were the person making the assertions of untruth, weren't you?  And I'd think that saying Harumph! wouldn't really work well as a way for you to disprove anything.  As I said, If you're right, you haven't offered any proof of you're being right.  As you say, you don't have to.

     On the other hand, if you wish to call the site, which claims to have been fact-checked, wrong, then I guess you either do have to offer proof of being right or take back your assertion that the site is wrong, don't you?  You may simply have over-reached yourself, and there's nothing terribly wrong with that.  Happens all the time.

     As for opening my eyes and looking, that covers all sorts of sins.  Mostly because people have to think as well, and they come to all sorts of funny conclusions, like why the earth shouldn't be round.  

     People would fall off, especially the outside.

     Which is worth more, a nickle or a dime?

     It depends on how old you are.  For most people, under a certain age, no matter how hard you work you can't convince them that the dime's worth more, because it's smaller.  It has to do with something called "conservation of size."
 
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