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Passions in Poetry

Flotilla Choir presents: We Con the World

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Denise
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200 posted 06-25-2010 12:08 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think 'Stone' is a reference to what Jennifer called me in a comment to Grinch to the effect of not bothering to waste time talking (typing) to me when my 'hearltess and callous' comments (laying the ultimate blame for the deaths of the inhabitants of Gaza on Hamas) gave her a serious case of the vapors, whereby she needed a cold cloth and a lie down, despite how unflappable she normally is.

Maybe you need to scold Jennifer, Bob.
Essorant
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201 posted 06-25-2010 12:41 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

People are too fond of their beliefs to follow the facts.
JenniferMaxwell
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202 posted 06-25-2010 01:02 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Please check those comments again, Denise, I didn’t call YOU anything. “Stone” was a reference to post #48, paragraph 2. I did think your comment was callous and heartless, but I certainly didn’t call YOU callous and heartless. Nor did I call you a $5 hooker.

Anyway, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2FX9rviEhw

Denise
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203 posted 06-25-2010 02:42 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Yes, “Stone” was a reference to post #48, paragraph 2, but your inference, immediatley following my comments that you disagreed with, was clearly that it was applicable to me, as per Carse's article, Jennifer, where he referred to people turning to stone.

For the record, I've never called YOU anything, not even a $5 hooker.
Grinch
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204 posted 06-25-2010 02:53 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


‘$5 hooker’– did I miss something?

Colour me confused.

Essorant
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205 posted 06-25-2010 03:19 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

If I may tell you in a word
This hoker isn't worth a turd.
JenniferMaxwell
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206 posted 06-25-2010 03:27 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Rather than jumping to conclusions, Denise, you could have asked. I thought the point was obvious, but would have been glad to explain. The point was the back and forth banter was pointless, no one was going to change their point of view.  It wasn’t you who called me a $5 hooker? If it wasn’t you then who was it? Grinch wants to know, don't you Grinch? And Bob's till waiting for an answer from Balladeer, aren't you Bob?

Anyway, away for a three day weekend. Feel free to talk about me while I’m gone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsTB2nzoGiw
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“At approximately 1050 hours, the naval observer from the early morning reconnaissance flight arrived at Israeli air force HQ and sat down with the air-naval liaison officer there. The two officers consulted Janes’ Fighting Ships and learned that the ship reported earlier in the day was USS Liberty, a United States Navy technical research ship. “- IDF Report

Grinch
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207 posted 06-25-2010 04:41 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
  It wasn’t you who called me a $5 hooker? If it wasn’t you then who was it? Grinch wants to know, don't you Grinch?


If someone actually called you a $5 hooker Jen then, absolutely, I’d like to know - curious is my middle name.

(It's actually ugly but we won't go into that.)


Huan Yi
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208 posted 06-25-2010 06:49 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"If someone actually called you a $5 hooker Jen then, absolutely, I’d like to know"

So would I.


.
Denise
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209 posted 06-25-2010 07:31 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I never called you any such thing Jennifer, and if you are accusing me of such a thing, then bring forward the post where, you are claiming, that I did. In fact I've never called you or anyone else any names whatsover here on these boards. You are way off base now with your slanderous accusations twisting in the wind while you pop off for the weekend. Inexcusable, to say the least.
Balladeer
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210 posted 06-25-2010 08:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

" I'm unclear here, Mike.  Are you denying that the commandoes descended from the Helicopters, firing weapons into the crowd below, and with supporting fire coming from their colleagues above?  Or are you saying you don't know about the actual facts of the situation?  Or is it something else? "

What I'm saying, Bob, is that I don't think Israelis were going around creating diversions for the cameras so they could go around shooting people in the head without the cameras seeing. Can I prove it? No, no more than Jennifer can claim they did. The remark was devoid of intelligence and filled with personal bias and disdain in it's presentation.

Nice to see you still ride to her defense, though, even though you didn't question the word stone when she used it....but I have gotten used to that double standard concerning her actions compared to others. It's not the first time.
Bob K
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211 posted 06-25-2010 11:23 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Mike, I looked up the use of the word "stone" in posting # 48, paragraph 2, as per Denise's suggestion.  In that context it made sense.  In the context in which you used it, it did not, at least for me.  It is another case where the use of quotation marks would have been appropriate and would have made a difference.  Don't get cranky with me because you didn't use them and expected people to read your mind.  You know better.

     In Jennifer's case, it was part of a quote, the context was clear, as was the attribution.  My squishy memory dredges up a partial and slant reference —  "Too long a {something or other. perhaps having to do with absense] can make a stone of the heart[,]" from somewhere in Yeats — that comes from seeing the useage in posting 48.  Whether it was intended by the author, I don't know.

     Jennifer posted news accounts from the physician who treated the Israeli casualties on that ship, with accounts of the wounds of those Israeli casualties and some accounts of the wounds of the passengers on that ship.

     She insisted that there were casualties.  She also insisted that the account of abseiling one at a time into a crowd seemed "a little bit strange, almost suicidal" and offered the suggestion that they were covering for people being shot in the head to explain such odd behavior.

     She was reaching for an explanation for odd behavior Mike.  Both of you agree the behavior was odd.  She doesn't know how to explain it any more than you do; she was offering an unlikely construct.  That doesn't mean that there weren't passengers killed by Israeli fire on the ship, though, because we have the evidence from the doctor who treated them and from witnesses on the ship, and I haven't seen you dispute these, nor suggest that there is credible evidence available to dispute these accounts.

quote:


Maybe it’s SOP, but having commandos abseil one at a time into the middle of a gang waiting to beat them with iron pipes seemed a little strange. You’re pretty vulnerable swinging on a rope your attacker is holding.  Not quite a suicide mission maybe, but seemed unnecessarily risky, perhaps a diversion, something for the camera to focus on while something else was going on, like shooting civilians in the head.
Oh well, just my tinfoil hat musings.



     You will note that the last sentence has shown her own doubts about the previous clause, calling it "tinfoil hat musings"?

     If I were to focus on material that you had disavowed as being "tin-hat" material as work that you claimed to be an example of you best thinking, I would be unsurprised if you might be upset.  Why you believe you can do it with others is somewhat beyond me.

     The reason I defend Jennifer is that you attack Jennifer.  I tend to dislike that sort of thing.  I also praise you when I think you've said something telling or insightful, because I think that's worthy of comment as well, and especially so if the thought is new to me.  I also say when I think I'm wrong or might be wrong, or at least I try to, and I work on all these things to improve on how well I'm doing them because I don't do any of them well enough.

Balladeer
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212 posted 06-25-2010 11:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You're looking under the wrong stone, Bob. Try post #143 and the previous 2 comments leading up to it.

I'm sure you didn't understand that "stone", either....and yet you didn't question it or ask for an explanation. I don't really find that surprising.
Essorant
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213 posted 06-26-2010 02:16 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

It looks like something made Jen feel she was called "hooker" in this thread:: http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/001959-11.html (first comment)
Bob K
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214 posted 06-26-2010 03:46 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I thought that use of the word was fairly clear, Mike; it was, I thought, a reference to Denise's comments a few postings before in which she suggested that Hamas had killed some Palestinians so they might blame it on the Israelis.  "Stone" in that case I read as a suggestion that Denise had made a fairly cold comment without offering much by way of proof, as in "Stone Cold" or "Stone Hearted," the sort of thing somebody does to dehumanize an enemy.  I didn't find it ambiguous at all.  I'm surprised you did; it was fairly clear.

     On the other hand, for you to expect to use it with similar effect after somebody had just used irony to undercut themselves and suggested that their own suspiciousness might have merited use of a tinfoil hat doesn't yield the same effect.  You were taking yourself seriously; she was not.

     I've seen you use your ability to undercut your own pretentions well in your verse, and I've admired it.  It takes a confident hand.  It's not a skill I've seen you show similar mastery of in your political discourse.  Nor, I hasten to say, should you have to; but you should be able to recognize when somebody else is doing so and, if only on stylistic grounds, and you should be able to allow yourself to take some pleasure in seeing it done.  

     I can't shoot, but I recognize when somebody else is a good shot, and I enjoy when somebody's a good basketball player, even though I never was one. Somebody with good qi is extraordinary to watch, even when they simply walk or breathe; even though my skill is tiny, I can still appreciate those who can show more.  So is a good ironist is a delight to watch.  

     I think it's better that I let the swipe an me pass by.  I suspect that you mean it, of course, but I think it is momentary rage which heaven knows I certainly earn frequently enough.  This might be a good place to let it rest, though.  
    
Grinch
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215 posted 06-26-2010 07:33 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I saw that reply by Jen at the time it was posted Ess but I didn’t see any comment that prompted it – was it removed perhaps?

Does anyone know?

.
Huan Yi
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216 posted 06-26-2010 08:01 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


.


Those Israelis are capable of anything . . .

.
Balladeer
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217 posted 06-26-2010 09:30 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You see what you want to see, Bob. Dos the phrase "don't bother talking to a stone" do anything for you? Weren't you at least a little curious when it was used? I suppose not, since you didn't question it...then.

The "who me?" routine is not new.

"Nor, I hasten to say, should you have to; but you should be able to recognize when somebody else is doing so and, if only on stylistic grounds, and you should be able to allow yourself to take some pleasure in seeing it done."

Actually, I thought it WAS cleverly done, one word that could easily be defended by "I didn't mean THAT!" should anyone complain. I didn't criticize it - I simply returned it to it's original owner.  
Denise
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218 posted 06-26-2010 10:54 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I didn't jump to conclusions, Jennifer. Grinch got your point as well:

quote:
Post 140 by Jennifer:  How many children were killed in Gaza during the three weeks of Operation Cast Lead, Denise?

Post 141 by Denise: Hamas has been known to kill Palestinian civilians, including children, and then blame it on Israel. I don't suppose there is any definitive way to know how many were inadvertently killed by Israel. They are extremely careful not to kill civilians. At any rate, Hamas is responsible for all of them, directly or indirectly.

Post 142 by Grinch: http://www.ifamericansknew. org/

Post 143 by Jennifer: Save your typing, Grinch. Stone.

Post 144 by Grinch: I don’t know Jen, if Denise applies the same rule to Iraq and Afghanistan and concludes that America is responsible for all the deaths in those conflicts, couldn’t that be considered progress?

Post 145 by Jennifer: Sorry, Grinch, I’m usually pretty unflappable when it comes to reading heartless, callous comments in this forum, but have to say after reading a certain one,  I think I know how it must feel to be hit by a stun grenade. Later, I need a cool cloth and a lie down.


For you to now claim that I misunderstood, that your point was simply that the back and forth banter was pointless doesn't hold water in the context of the posts above, and in the fact that you continued with the so-called 'pointless banter' afterward.

You were cleasrly insinuating that I was 'stone', or as Bob says, 'stone cold' or 'stone hearted' (he got your point too).

You then make matters worse and insinuate that I had previously, at some point, called you a $5 hooker. It never happened. Back up your allegations or apologize.  
Grinch
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219 posted 06-26-2010 11:23 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Actually, I thought it WAS cleverly done, one word that could easily be defended by "I didn't mean THAT!" should anyone complain. I didn't criticize it - I simply returned it to it's original owner.


Let me get this straight Mike. You thought, rightly or wrongly, that Jen had instigated a cleverly constructed but underhand and disdainful attack on Denise and so you decided to return the favour.

Do you think that was wise?

quote:
I thought it WAS cleverly done, one word that could easily be defended by "I didn't mean THAT!"


That would only work Mike if you actually claim that you didn’t mean it, whereas you seem to be quite proud to insist that you did mean it. At the end of the day, depending on our own subjective view we have the option of giving Jen the benefit of doubt, but in your case there’s no doubt about it – you’re telling us straight that you meant it.

I’d be tempted to let this one go if I were you Mike, you can’t win – just my humble opinion of course.

Denise,

For the record I thought Jen meant that you were impervious to logical argument – that your opinion was fixed and unchangeable and that I was wasting my time trying. To be honest sometimes it does seem that way, that’s not to say that the trait is a bad thing – the positive term for it is resolute – but it can be frustrating during an open discussion.

I guess it seems exactly the same from where you’re sitting too on occasion, I know Mike sees me in that light, he claimed recently that I’d never change my opinion. I wouldn’t classify either of us as stone in that context, maybe semi-permeable concrete would be more apt.



Now where the heck did the $5 hooker comment come from! Inquisitive minds need to know.


Balladeer
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220 posted 06-26-2010 11:41 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I'd be tempted to let it go if I were you, grinch. You're looking so hard for justifications, you're not reading what's in front of you.

Jenn used the word to basically mean.."Don't bother trying to explain to Denise because it's like talking to a stone. I know it, Denise knows it and Jennifer knows it. Was it clever to gt that message across in one cryptic word? Yes. Was it clever in the way that, if someone were to say it was an insult to Denise, Jenn could simply say "You think I meant that???" Yes.That made it clever. I simply returned it to her. Her using it didn't bother Bob at all. Mine did. Musketeers all....
Essorant
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221 posted 06-26-2010 12:01 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Was a comment that made Jen think you called her "hooker" removed Balladeer?  
Grinch
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222 posted 06-26-2010 12:02 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Then you intended to insult Jen with a personal attack Mike?

Very classy – why the heck hasn’t it been deleted?

Where’s a competent moderator when you need one?

.
Denise
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223 posted 06-26-2010 12:08 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:

For the record I thought Jen meant that you were impervious to logical argument – that your opinion was fixed and unchangeable and that I was wasting my time trying. To be honest sometimes it does seem that way, that’s not to say that the trait is a bad thing – the positive term for it is resolute – but it can be frustrating during an open discussion.


Yes, I know the frustration well.


Sorry. I guess our inquiring minds will have to await her return to see if she cares to back up her slander. I don't know why she threw that $5 hooker bomb my way any more than you do.
Balladeer
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224 posted 06-26-2010 12:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

grinch, if you consider my stone a personal attack, you must do the same for hers. No one deleted hers. Why is it that you are trying so hard to create and extend an argument, to the point of referring to my actions as classless? You are making it appear to be very personal toward me over an incident you have no part in. it makes little sense and doesn't favor you.
 
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