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Passions in Poetry

Flotilla Choir presents: We Con the World

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Bob K
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150 posted 06-20-2010 03:52 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Intent may be interesting if you're doing psychotherapy.  Indeed, I find it very interesting.  But in diplomacy, I'm not sure it's so useful.

     To begin with, how do you trust the intent of the people on the other side of the table?  From their own account?  My experience is that trust of the other is a sometimes thing.  Perhaps, Denise, your experience is different.

     Why then should the Israelis or the Palestinians trust each other?  Neither of them have proven trustworthy over time, at least in terms of the other.  We have never found it particularly dependable to put our trust in either party.  Each will go back on its word at the drop of a hat if they feel their own self interest demands it; nor would we, really, expect differently.  Suggesting the Israelis are more trustworthy than the Palestinians is foolish —  trustworthy to do what?

     I suspect we are fortunate that we can trust either of them not to cut their own throats, they are so mad for revenge, and so wild with mutual loathing and rage.  It is not clear that either of them is willing to survive the next 50 years unless the other is dead first.

     At least some modicum of understanding and love is necessary for that survival to happen and I have no idea where it will come from.
JenniferMaxwell
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151 posted 06-20-2010 05:04 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“The number of dead and wounded on either side is not an indicator of the rightness or wrongness of either side.”
Why did you post three links showing how many Israeli’s have been killed, Denise? Why have you twice now avoided mentioning how many Palestinians have been killed?

“To me Israel is more credible.”
Israel has refused to release all the videos of the Flotilla massacre, instead showing only a brief, edited clip. Israel has admitted to having doctored an audio clip of that event. Israel committed war crimes in Lebanon and Gaza that were captured on video yet they deny any wrongdoing. More credible than what/who?

“As long as they continue to launch attacks, Israel will respond in defense.”
Is denying infants formula, restricting food and medical aid to civilians a defensive measure or is it a form of collective punishment, a war crime?
Grinch
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152 posted 06-20-2010 06:18 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Jen,

Israel has also announced that it’s going to relax the blockade, I’m guessing that’s  the same blockade that they’ve insisted is absolutely necessary and that wasn’t causing unnecessary suffering to the people in Gaza.

I spy with my little eye something beginning with lie.

If the blockade was necessary and it wasn’t causing hardship, as several people here have insisted, why the heck are Israel going to relax it?


JenniferMaxwell
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153 posted 06-20-2010 08:41 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

My only guess would be that relaxing the blockade might be a set up, Grinch. Maybe Israel is hoping Hamas will start a food fight, lobbing fistfuls of coriander chutney, jam tarts, bags of crisps and sippy bottles full of baby formula over the Wall. Defensive measures would of course then be, not allowing any food into Gaza at all.
Anyway, I’m sure Denise will pop in soon to answer your question properly.

Denise
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154 posted 06-20-2010 11:22 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I shared the links, Jennifer, to balance out the converstion here. The people of Gaza are not the only ones suffering due to the actions of their elected terrorist government.

I don't know what 'relaxing the blockade' entails. If they are giving into International pressure by allowing even one ship to go through without inspecting it, they are being foolish, in my opinion.

As for the baby formula, I don't know why that would be a concern, other than the possiblity that explosives could be hidden in it, similar to how we were restricted at the airports from bringing aboard liquids or powders over a certain size and not in approved clear containers, including baby formula, medications, shampoo, etc.
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155 posted 06-20-2010 11:35 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It appears that the pressure came from Obama. But of course. Will he be held accountable when the missles start flying into Israel again? Nope. It will be Israel's fault.

quote:
The U.S. extracted concessions from Israel in exchange for American opposition to the establishment of a United Nations commission to investigate Israel's commando raid of a flotilla earlier this month that resulted in the deaths of nine violent activists, WND has learned.

Separately, an official from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office told WND the Obama administration pressed hard on Israel to ease a blockade on the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip.

Israel says the blockade is intended to stop the shipment of weapons into Gaza.

The hot new best-seller, "The Manchurian President," by Aaron Klein, reveals inside story on Team Obama and its members. Now available autographed at WND's Superstore!

Earlier this week, Netanyahu's office released a statement that Israel's security cabinet decided to ease the Gaza blockade.

The White House yesterday called that decision "a step in the right direction."

Obama has called the three-year blockade unsustainable and urged Israel to scale it back dramatically.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=168349
Grinch
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156 posted 06-20-2010 01:28 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
It appears that the pressure came from Obama.


That sounds like your pathetic excuse for a leader has some influence with Israel Denise. If he can persuade the Israelis to ease a blockade that they’ve insisted for the last 3 years was absolutely necessary and that wasn’t causing the people of Gaza any duress he deserves some sort of a peace prize.

Call me a cynic but if Israel really believed that the blockade was absolutely necessary they’d be telling Obama exactly where he could shove his ‘pressure’.

.
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157 posted 06-20-2010 01:53 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Oh to be a fly on the wall in one of those Obama pressure meetings, first with Democratic lawmakers and now with Israel, to bend them to his will. Svengali comes to mind.
Denise
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158 posted 06-20-2010 03:37 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Egypt allowed 11 U.S. warships and 1 Israeli Warship to pass through the Suez Canal ahead of the expected Gaza bound Iranian flotilla.

Maybe that's what the deal was, to discourage an otherwise sure confrontation between Iran and Israel?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/138164
JenniferMaxwell
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159 posted 06-20-2010 04:46 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I've asked you three times to tell how many Palestinian children have been killed by the Israelis, Denise, and three times you've avoided answering the question. Not a problem, I understand. It's rather painful, shameful and embarrassing to acknowledge your tax dollars, about 3 billion a year, are going to a country that killed over three hundred children during a three week period. Being born in Gaza is not only a life imprisonment sentence, far too often it's a death sentence.


"The Impact of the Conflict on Children"

"124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

Click chart to enlarge. Source: Remember These Children. (go to link to see chart)

“The majority of these [Palestinian] children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers.”

- Catherine Cook

Source: Remember These Children, a coalition of groups calling for an end to the killing of children and a fair resolution of the conflict. (View the complete list of the victims, which was last updated on November 20, 2009.)

It appears that Remember These Children has not yet documented a number of the Palestinian children killed during Israel's Dec 27, 2008 - Jan 18, 2009 assault on Gaza. They report only 269 of the Palestinian children killed during that time (and an additional 9 who later died from wounds inflicted during that time period). B'Tselem has documented that Israel killed 318 Palestinian children in Gaza during this time. We do not doubt the validity of this higher number as they are extremely careful in their documentation."

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html#source


[This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (06-20-2010 05:17 PM).]

Denise
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160 posted 06-20-2010 09:07 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

No, Jen, I'm not ashamed of our support for Israel. And the blame for any deaths in the conflicts lies with Hamas and Hezbolah. If they want peace they can have it. Resolution is quite simple. Stop attacking Israel and its citizens. They could have had peace 60 plus years ago. They choose death and destruction and then cry to the world that they are the victims. When will they start showing concern for their children? It is within their power to make Gaza a safe place for them.
JenniferMaxwell
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161 posted 06-20-2010 10:13 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

June 8, 1967, how many rockets had the USS Liberty cruising in international waters fired on Israel when Israel killed 34 of our troops and wounded 174 more and made scrap metal out of the ship? How many holes did Israel shoot in the American flag the ship was flying?  How many lifeboats did they machine gun? How many Hamas and Hezbollah were on the Liberty?

Israel has massacred with impunity, children, civilians and our own troops, committed egregious war crimes, sucked billions out of our treasury to finance weapons they turned on our own troops, received numerous condemnations and sanctions from the UN and you support them?

Balladeer
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162 posted 06-20-2010 10:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the identity of the USS Liberty.

In May 1968, the Israeli government paid US$3,323,500 as full payment to the families of the 34 men killed in the attack. In March 1969, Israel paid a further $3,566,457 in compensation to the men who had been wounded. On 18 December 1980, it agreed to pay $6 million as settlement for the U.S. claim of $7,644,146 for material damage to the Liberty itself.[8]

On December 17, 1987, the issue was officially closed by the two governments through an exchange of diplomatic notes
JenniferMaxwell
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163 posted 06-20-2010 10:37 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

You "inadvertently" forgot to include this part, from Wiki that was right right between the first two paragraphs you copied and pasted:

"Some survivors, in addition to some U.S. diplomats and intelligence officials involved in the incident continue to dispute these official findings, saying the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was not a mistake,[6] and it remains the only major maritime incident in U.S. history not to be investigated by the U.S. Congress.[7]"

[This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (06-21-2010 02:02 PM).]

JenniferMaxwell
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164 posted 06-21-2010 01:54 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

And you also failed to mention that all known survivors have classified the attack as deliberate.
http://www.uss-liberty.com/2010/06/19/flotilla-attack-mirrors-uss-liberty/
After one American flag was shot through with holes, a larger one was raised, signals were sent identifying the ship as American yet the massacre continued.
Huan Yi
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165 posted 06-21-2010 04:02 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was not a mistake."

So what would have been the motive?

You think the Israelis set out to deliberately kill children
in Gaza across its own border anymore than Obama sets
out to kill children in Pakistan thousands of miles away
from ours?

“Relying on the testimony of Hamas terrorists, the Goldstone Report charged that Israel had deliberately targeted Palestinian civilians and had committed war crimes in Gaza. Outside the precincts of the Islamic propaganda machine, however, Israel’s record is in fact that of a nation that is extraordinarily protective of enemy civilians. In testimony ignored by the Goldstone Report, for example, Col. Richard Kemp, the former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, stated: “During Operation Cast Lead [the Israeli response to the Hamas attacks], the Israel Defense Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.” Hamas, by contrast, is notorious for building military headquarters under hospitals, for placing its military forces in refugee camps, and for using women and children as “human shields” to deter attacks. Hamas’s rockets are known to be so inaccurate they cannot be directed against military targets; they can only be used effectively against civilians. In addition, since Hamas’s war against Israel was a response to Israel’s unilateral withdrawal, it was a criminal aggression responsible for all the subsequent casualties, something the Goldstone Report and the U.N. Human Rights Council conveniently overlooked.”

http://article.nationalreview.com/436460/obama-and-the-war-against-israel/david-horowitz-jacob-laksin?page=2

.

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (06-21-2010 04:36 PM).]

Grinch
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166 posted 06-21-2010 04:39 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

http://www.ussliberty.org/why.htm
JenniferMaxwell
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167 posted 06-21-2010 05:22 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

When, as Isreal did in Cast Lead, you imprison more than half a million children in an area approx. 40km by 10km with no means of escape by land, sea or air and then bomb that area, yes, you are deliberately targeting those children.

I’m still trying to sort out why Israel deliberately attacked the Liberty. Right now I’m leaning toward trying to draw us into the war along with to trying to hide their impending attack on the Heights.

Bob K
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168 posted 06-21-2010 06:37 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     You will find reports of both side behaving badly.

    Some of the reports will be distorted, many of them will be accurate, as the reports here are accurate.  I have serious doubts that, even if anybody should have success in convincing others that the arabs or the Israelis were really the worst people involved in this mess, that the revelation would materially speed the resolution of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.  Typically, the discussion simply shifts to another example, where the same issues are rehashed with equal futility.

     Knowing that I am worse or that you are worse is simply a matter of affixing blame and shame.  This distracts from the business of how the two of us — or in the case of the Israelis and the Palestinians, the two of them — are going to form a partnership to do what needs to be done to help each other survive with a certain amount of dignity and pride.  If one or the other side is shamed too thoroughly, then the very hope for peace will fester before our eyes.  

     For us to be partisans of one side or the other is to encourage the hope that each side can solve their issues by pursuing their quarrels, when they cannot.  Their quarrels can only be solved by a willingness to bring their quarrels to a resolution.

     This is difficult for them, and it is difficult for us, because we see the injustices piled upon those we feel to be the victims in these quarrels so very clearly, and the injustices are, for the most part, real, no matter whose partisan we are.  It's my belief that we need to become partisans for peace and not for the Israelis nor the Palestinians, even though the Palestinians and the Israelis have both had so many crimes committed against them, and have themselves committed so many crimes in what they were sure was their own defense.
Huan Yi
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169 posted 06-22-2010 11:13 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"We are frequently asked, "Why did Israel attack?"
The motive is irrelevant."


Please.


.
JenniferMaxwell
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170 posted 06-22-2010 11:54 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Does your "Please" mean you think the motive is relevant, there was some justifiable reason for Isreal to torpedo the Liberty, kill and wound over 200 of our troops? Or are you just mocking someone for their opinion on the topic without offering yours for consideration?
Huan Yi
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171 posted 06-22-2010 02:25 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Do you really believe Isreal would, knowing
it was a U.S. Navy ship, attack it therby
endangering the most important ally to
its existence.  If yes, then you must offer
a very good reason why.  

Some time ago the U.S. bombed Canadians
who were on a live fire night exercise in Afghanistan
killing several.  It was an
accident.  In war it happens.


.
JenniferMaxwell
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172 posted 06-22-2010 03:49 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I answered your first question in 167 as best I can at this time. I’m still doing research. I don’t know their motive for blowing up ambulances, hospitals, aid centers, power plants, water supply plants, schools, civilian homes, or for attacking caravans of fleeing civilians either, but I do know their bombs and missiles usually hit their target.

I understand about fog of war accidents.  I also know for a fact, from reading IDF records and transcripts, that the ship the Israelis strafed and torpedoed had been identified hours before the attack by their own air force as being an American ship. They checked their copy of Janes' and identified it as the USS Liberty.


Huan Yi
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173 posted 06-22-2010 05:13 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

I'm sure the U.S. had spies in the sky,
(and not U2s that can be shot down).  They
don't need a ship.  Any crucial information
is not passed in the clear in peace time
much less during a war.  The idea that
the ship might discover something it had
to be killed for doesn't work.  Besides
why didn't they finish the job?

There are far more reasons to believe
it a mistake.

“The rate of friendly fire deaths for all U.S. troops in World War II was 12-14 percent; Vietnam, 10-14 percent; Grenada, 13 percent; and Panama, 6 percent.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/11/national/main1391626.shtml



"The day before the Liberty incident, Israeli aircraft bombed a friendly armored column in the Sinai after it was mistaken for an enemy column."


"An Israeli tank fired on a building occupied by Israeli troops after mistaking them for enemy fighters. Three soldiers were killed and another twenty wounded"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#Gaza_War


.
JenniferMaxwell
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174 posted 06-22-2010 06:40 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“There are far more reasons to believe it a mistake.”

What exactly are those reasons? They identified the ship as being American before the attack, the attacking planes and torpedo boats could clearly see the hull numbers, the American flag, knew exactly what frequencies to jam, etc. - sounds pretty deliberate rather than a “mistake” to me.

For an hour and fifteen minutes the Israelis did their best to sink the ship, murder the entire crew, our troops. The reason they stopped the attack as I understand it is that the Liberty finally got out signal.

Our first response was a bomber headed for Egypt. Now who would benefit if our response had been to attack Egypt?

 
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