How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Flotilla Choir presents: We Con the Worl   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  ]
 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Flotilla Choir presents: We Con the World

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


125 posted 06-16-2010 08:02 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1kt8qi0M-M&feature=channel
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


126 posted 06-16-2010 10:30 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


How are things on the West Bank?


.
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


127 posted 06-16-2010 11:44 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Is the Google broken?
Anyway, a couple of articles to get you started until it comes up again, or whatever.

Occupiers, Israeli forces clash over demolishing illegal settlement structure
http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article62925.ece


"The only way that Gazans will be able to rebuild their lives and livelihoods is for the siege to be lifted completely," Goin told IPS.

"There is currently on average seven hours of power cuts daily. The power cuts pose a serious risk to the treatment of patients - and to their very lives.

"It takes two to three minutes for a generator to begin operating, and during that time electronic devices do not function. As a result, artificial respirators must be reactivated manually, dialysis treatment is disrupted and surgery is suspended as operating theaters are plunged into darkness," says the ICRC.

"Additionally, it took us five months to get permission to bring in a mammograph for Shifa Hospital, Gaza's main hospital. It took another five months before the Israelis would allow in a dialysis machine, and it took us eight months to bring in spare parts for ambulances," Goin told IPS.

"There is a shortage of essential medicines such as anti-epileptic drugs, and a shortage of medical equipment such as ventilator tubes. More than 110 of the 700 disposable items that should be available are also out of stock. The health situation is critical."

Life is obviously much better for Palestinians in the West Bank, but Israel's continued occupation of the territory also damages the fabric of life there.

"Palestinian movement there has improved with Israel's reduction of checkpoints and roadblocks. But there is still a problem for Palestinians moving from the northern West Bank to the south as the territory is effectively divided into cantons," Gaylard told IPS.

"There has also been some improvement in the West Bank's economy due to fiscal stimulus, limited investment and the payment of salaries on a regular basis. But this needs to be made sustainable by Palestinians being able to access their productive assets such as farmland," added Gaylard.

Israel's separation barrier has divided farmers from their agricultural fields and confiscated large swathes of Palestinian land for illegal settlement development and "security".

"The lack of an equitable distribution of water is another issue with Israelis getting the bulk of the area's water supplies and Palestinians having to survive on the remainder," said Gaylard.

West Bankers also have access to plentiful petrol and the limited water they have is fit for consumption, unlike Gazans whose underground water resources have been polluted by sewage, pesticides, chemicals and sea water.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LF17Ak04.html
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


128 posted 06-17-2010 05:02 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"the announcement that toys and food will be allowed into Gaza is also a stunning indictment."
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


129 posted 06-17-2010 08:18 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     All in all, I don't find it an impressive humanitarian record on the part of the Israelis.  Everybody feels fully justified in treating each other as miserably as they do, and conditions don't seem likely to change until both parties improve their standards of care, treatment and respect for the other, in the face of all logic, which certainly suggests it's prudent to defend yourself against all dangers foreign and domestic.

     It's pretty amazing how many human dilemmas come down to this single turning point, isn't it?  I need to look up the exact quote from Auden, but it's something like

We must love one another or die.

     Auden was always making things look good, though; as if we had a choice about death, when in fact all we have the choice about is love.  We don't have to love, it only makes living better when we do.  

     And, yeah, some religions might suggest more.  
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


130 posted 06-17-2010 08:30 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“JERUSALEM — Tens of thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews took to the streets of this city on Thursday to accompany dozens of Hasidic parents who were on their way to prison for two weeks after refusing to comply with a Supreme Court ruling against ethnic segregation in their children’s school.

This latest battle in Israel’s simmering culture war, pitting the country’s ultra-Orthodox Ashkenazim of European origin against their slightly less stringent ultra-Orthodox Sephardic peers from Arab and North African backgrounds, has raised accusations of racism on one side and infringement of religious freedom on the other.

But on Thursday, most ultra-Orthodox streams were united in protest against what they see as state meddling in their religious affairs and in their conviction that the religious law of the Torah — or at least their interpretation of it — transcends that of any Israeli court. “
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/18/world/middleeast/18israel.html
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


131 posted 06-18-2010 03:44 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Baby formula is a threat to Israel’s security?

Flotilla Survivor says Israeli marines boarded unarmed American ship throwing grenades http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElX0zpZdoew&feature=related


"To destroy the seed of Amalek"
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


132 posted 06-18-2010 01:42 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"Helen Thomas was certainly insensitive and out of line in stating that Israelis should return to Poland or Germany. However, she did not gratuitously kill anybody, which is more than can be said of Israel. Furthermore, her larger point was quite valid that Israel is occupying Palestinian lands and, I might add, criminally and inhumanely.

This is America's business because it is primarily U.S. complicity in these crimes that provokes terrorist attacks against us. It is a primary reason Americans are suffering and dying in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel and its U.S. supporters now urge a U.S. war against Iran and expect U.S. support in any war they provoke.

Most current U.S. economic, security and military problems are due substantially to these unnecessary or badly managed wars conducted in part to enhance Israel's security.

The U.S. special relationship with Israel is increasingly becoming a one-way street. If the U.S. is determined to underwrite Israel's security with American blood and money, Israel is obligated to cooperate with the U.S. in seeking peace. If Israel refuses, the U.S. should cut ties with Israel, and then work to impose sanctions on it."

Malcolm D. McPhee
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


133 posted 06-18-2010 02:16 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

"Israel was established on a sliver of British Mandatory Palestine. There was no pre-existing Palestinian Arab country. The mandate, confirmed by the League of Nations and reaffirmed by the United Nations, facilitated re-establishment of the Jewish people in their ancient homeland. Jewish immigration and economic development attracted Arab migration into what would become Israel. That migration and Arab massacres of Jews led Britain to bar further Jewish return. This accounted for the "Palestinian majority" in 1948.

The equality of Israeli Arabs and Jews from diverse ethnic backgrounds demonstrates that Israel claims no "ethnic supremacy."

Rather than "privileging Jews," Israel upholds rights of religious minorities, including Christians and Muslims — unlike Muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia and Iran.

As for being "sustained only by violence," Israel has peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Its offers to the Palestinian leadership of a West Bank and Gaza Strip state in exchange for peace have been rejected, usually with violence."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/letters/2010-06-18-letters18_ST_N.htm


Malcolm D. McPhee:Sequim, Wash.'s response,
to this article, which you cite seems not to care . . .

.
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


134 posted 06-18-2010 04:09 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“Never to settle in the land of Egypt”
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


135 posted 06-18-2010 07:32 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     There is, according to some of my Israeli friends, a system of ethnic and racial bias in Israel the same as there is here.  The darker your skin, for the most part, the lower on the social scale you are.  Morrocan Jews are fairly low on the scale.  One of my Israeli friends got quite a large amount of flak for dating a Moroccan Jewish guy, her first boyfriend, and she tells me the experience is quite common.  While there are a fair number of Israeli Arabs, they encounter a certain amount of difficulty, I'm told, from the same and other Israeli sources.  While there really should be no discrimination ideally, there may well be in fact.

     This is a function, I believe, of the mutual paranoia with which Arab and Israeli tend to treat each other in that neck of the woods.  The best of intentions are difficult to carry though in such an atmosphere.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


136 posted 06-18-2010 09:12 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

"There is, according to some of my Israeli friends, a system of ethnic and racial bias . . ."


What are you responding to?

.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


137 posted 06-18-2010 11:39 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     Sorry, John, I should have been more clear.  I didn't mean to confuse.

quote:


The equality of Israeli Arabs and Jews from diverse ethnic backgrounds demonstrates that Israel claims no "ethnic supremacy."

JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


139 posted 06-19-2010 12:17 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

The first video states that 125 Israeli children were killed. How many Palestinian children were killed by the Israelis, Denise, during those same 10 years?
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


140 posted 06-19-2010 12:27 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

How many children were killed in Gaza during the three weeks of Operation Cast Lead, Denise?
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


141 posted 06-19-2010 12:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Hamas has been known to kill Palestinian civilians, including children, and then blame it on Israel. I don't suppose there is any definitive way to know how many were inadvertently killed by Israel. They are extremely careful not to kill civilians. At any rate, Hamas is responsible for all of them, directly or indirectly.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


142 posted 06-19-2010 12:43 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


143 posted 06-19-2010 12:50 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Save your typing, Grinch. Stone.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


144 posted 06-19-2010 01:07 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I don’t know Jen, if Denise applies the same rule to Iraq and Afghanistan and concludes that America is responsible for all the deaths in those conflicts, couldn’t that be considered progress?

.
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


145 posted 06-19-2010 02:17 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Sorry, Grinch, I’m usually pretty unflappable when it comes to reading heartless, callous comments in this forum, but have to say after reading a certain one,  I think I know how it must feel to be hit by a stun grenade. Later, I need a cool cloth and a lie down.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


146 posted 06-19-2010 05:28 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:

Hamas has been known to kill Palestinian civilians, including children, and then blame it on Israel. I don't suppose there is any definitive way to know how many were inadvertently killed by Israel. They are extremely careful not to kill civilians. At any rate, Hamas is responsible for all of them, directly or indirectly



     You really ought to provide some sort of mainstream source for this, Denise.

     "Have been known" covers a lot of ground.  Much of it may well be spurious.  All of it is, at this point, hearsay in its most literal meaning, and overall it carries the authority of any particularly nasty piece of gossip.  

     Should you wish to go beyond the grounds of hearsay, innuendo, smear and gossip, some sort of formal attribution will be needed.  I use these words, I believe, well within their established dictionary meanings.

     Though I am not a zionist, I was born Jewish and I will, I'm certain, die that way.  I am familiar with the various source materials you've laid out about the terrible attacks against Jews and Israelis over the years, and I don't dispute them.  The people who perpetrated these attacks should have been punished.    Some no doubt were.

     But.

     You are looking at only a portion of the picture.  Even when others try to show you other pieces of the picture, you remain uninterested.  The pieces that both Grinch and Jennifer have showed you are accurate as well.  Those new pieces do not mean that the pieces you have and which you have insisted upon, quite righteously, I believe, are wrong.  Those new pieces, however, because they too are real, do mean that there is another righteous side to the picture that is also real, and which requires earnest attention.

     Unlike Jennifer and Grinch, I can't say that that the Palestinians are in the right here.  I may be misunderstanding their positions, certainly, when I characterize them in this way; I don't know.  But I do understand that the facts and figures that Jennifer and Grinch are offering are on the up-and-up.  For each of the lists that you offer of terrible things done by the Palestinians, one could be offered that would list terrible things done by the Israelis.  When all was said and done, the lists would both be longer than you would care to look at, and would provide stomach churning upset.  There would probably be more atrocities committed by the Israelis because the Israelis are an organized state with an organized army and a coherent policy.

     Organized madmen can do more damage than mere berserkers any day of the week, mostly because they care about surviving long enough to do it again.  My opinion.

     The figures, however, speak for themselves, and Grinch's are the ones that I'm familiar with.

     I came upon an interesting reading of the "eye for an eye" section of the bible while I was, if memory serves, reading Everett Fox's translation of The Torah.  The idea is that the eye for an eye is not an injunction that you should go out and take an eye for a lost eye, but that it is a limit on vengeance:  That one should do no more than take an eye for an eye.  That would place the injunction within the mainstream of much of western legal thought, indeed, would make it part of the foundation of that thought.

     And that suggests that what the Israelis have been doing may have enabled their survival, but the cost of their doing so may have established the sort of feud that the biblical injunction was designed to avert by extracting unjust retribution and then provoking in return their own unjust retribution.  

     This particular way of carrying out the "Never Again!" policy, has, in effect, with its draconian methodology, ensured that there will be a "Next Time!" and that the cycle of violence must continue.  Every time you tear down the house of an innocent, you create a family or a tribe of enemies with a real injustice to avenge.  And that is just one of the most superficial layers of the problem.

     Tossing in comments like the ones you ventured above simply don't come to grips with the issues, and they don't come to grips with the facts of much of what the Israelis are doing on an ongoing basis.  As John Clare said,

"I am the self-creator of my woe."

     And while that applies to all of us to some extent, it certainly applies in full measure here to the Israelis, and yes, to a lesser extent but still in full measure to the Palestinians.  After all, you can only mess up to the extent that you've got something to mess up in the first place.  I'm sure that given a chance the Palestinians will catch up.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


147 posted 06-19-2010 05:57 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Unlike Jennifer and Grinch, I can't say that that the Palestinians are in the right here.


I don’t believe either of them are in the ‘right’ Bob – I simply believe that the Israelis are more in the wrong than the Palestinians.

JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


148 posted 06-19-2010 10:55 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“They are extremely careful not to kill civilians.”

Right, we saw how careful they were in Lebanon, Gaza and most recently on the Flotilla where they “inadvertently” shot many civilians, including a teenager shot several times in the head from a distance of approximately 18cm.

Were you able to find those figure’s Denise?. How many Palestinian children were killed during the last 10 years and how many children were killed in Gaza during the three weeks of Operation Cast Lead?

Still waiting to hear from anyone on why baby formula was banned. Is it some sort of rocket fuel, material Hammas might use in building bunkers?

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


149 posted 06-20-2010 12:41 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It all comes down to which side you believe is more credible. To me Israel is more credible.

There isn't a moral equivalency between the two in my view. Israel goes out of its way to avoid civilian deaths. Hamas targets civilians deliberately, even to the extent of shooting babies in their beds, and just like Hezbolah, uses its own citizens as human shields.

Hamas would not have problems with Israel if they would stop attacking them. It's as simple as that. As long as they continue to launch attacks, Israel will respond in defense. Any deaths that occur will be on the hands of Hamas.

The number of dead and wounded on either side is not an indicator of the rightness or wrongness of either side. The indicator is motive and intent. Hamas is motivated by hatred of Israel and the intent to wipe it off the face of the earth. It's written in their charter. Israel's intent is to protect itself and its people from those madmen.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Flotilla Choir presents: We Con the Worl   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors