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Passions in Poetry

Flotilla Choir presents: We Con the World

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Huan Yi
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100 posted 06-14-2010 11:11 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"THE Palestinian Authority and Egypt oppose lifting Israel's naval blockade of the Gaza Strip "


makes sense . . .
Hamas is a friend to neither.
.
JenniferMaxwell
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101 posted 06-14-2010 11:38 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

You forgot to add - "according to European diplomatic sources" - unnamed, not at the meeting but with superfantastic intercontinental hearing abilities? But it does make sense Abbas would say that, he's been Israel's beotch nearly as long as the US has.
Bob K
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102 posted 06-14-2010 12:56 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Hey, Mike, I checked out that source you gave on the list you posted.

     The whole point of the article was to prove that President Obama had said to the Egyptian foreign minister that he was a Muslim and had a secret muslim agenda.  The whole reason why is that The Egyptian foreign Minister had announced (according to the folks on this web site) that the President had confided to him this tidbit in confidence.

     The web site made a big deal about how none of the main stream media had carried this blockbuster story.

     I figure there are a couple of possibilities for this.  One is that the web site is right, and that there is an international conspiracy to keep this vital piece of information out of the hands of the righteous of the world.  

     One of the others is that the other news sources heard the same stories and evaluated it as to likelihood of being accurate or real and put a significance level of roughly F minus on it.

     Given the fuss the site makes about Pay-pal no longer being willing to work with them, I know which side of the spectrum of the choices I'd go for.  Given the same information, I know which side of the spectrum you'd go for.  And apparently have.  Or perhaps you're simply trying to make your source look artificially more solid than it is.  It looks to me, having actually read the article, like they're running out of money for aluminum foil and the gamma rays may be getting through.  I wonder how many other secret muslims they see around them in Israel and The United States?

     It looks like General Petraeus may be about to be added to the list, if the stuff they're saying about his negative attitude toward Israel is true.  Wow, I simply thought he was a General and didn't, you know, have it in for Israel.

     Shows what I know.

     Shows what impossible standards I have for my sources, too.  I guess this is an example of something you think isn't part of what the former Governor of Alaska would call "The Lame-stream media," huh?  Perhaps you advocate more publications like this and fewer like The Christian Science Monitor or The Economist orThe Times?
Huan Yi
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103 posted 06-14-2010 04:03 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

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"The web site made a big deal about how none of the main stream media had carried this blockbuster story."


Like people starving in Gaza.


.
Balladeer
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104 posted 06-14-2010 04:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, Bob, we have seen the "impossible standards" you have heaped on your sources....such a the Electric Lawyer, a nameless, faceless somebody or nobody with no credentials given who simply says "Defense-biased criminal law case summaries from California, the Ninth Circuit, and the U.S. Supreme Court.
And other stuff I want to talk about.
Deal with it."

You quoted four different links from this mystery man. If that's an indication of the high standards you set for your sources, no wonder you're lost.
JenniferMaxwell
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105 posted 06-14-2010 06:29 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

This is rather interesting info about the Gaza tunnels. Pics of the tunnels are all over the net for our doubting Thomases who’d care to check. Anyway, begs the question, if Israel is so concerned about security, worried about rocket making materials coming into Gaza, then why do they leave so many of the tunnels operational, wide open for smuggling in rocket making materials? No jam or coriander allowed in aid shipments coming through the front door, but more or less turning a blind eye to anything at all coming through the back door.


“The tunnels are not at all hard to find. In the southern Gazan town of Rafah, right on the border, there are lines of them covered by white tents.

Little attempt is made to keep them secret. They are surrounded by huge mounds of sandy earth which have been dug out of the ground.

The air is thick with diesel fuel from the trucks that transport the goods across the Gaza strip.

The openness of the smuggling operation suggests that if Israel and Egypt really wanted to stop the tunnels they could easily do so.
Israel has at times bombed some of the tunnels, but has stopped short of totally shutting them down.“

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8664316.stm
Bob K
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106 posted 06-14-2010 06:46 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Perhaps you missed the place where The Electric Lawyer Site said at the top of the page that the site was "defense-biased."  It said exactly what it was about, and I made no attempt to present it as anything else.  

     Is there some reason you thought otherwise?

     If so, name it.  

     I thought you got the point.  Where would you have gotten the notion that I meant more than that?  I thought the author of the site was very clear, and that I need not make claims for him that he did not intend and that I did not intend either.

     Perhaps you wanted me to make larger claims for the site than I did.  Sorry, Mike, but I didn't.

     I certainly did make a point of saying why I thought your reference was somewhat deceptive. And I notice that you offer no criticism of of the points I raised.  I thought they were cogent when I raised them, and I still do.  The site you used as a reference was considerably less than you have done and know well how to do, and the point of the site was an attempt to prove that The President and much of the military establishment of the United States is in a conspiracy against Israel.  The part you quoted was an almost incidental outgrowth of that poisonous pap.

     I invite anybody interested to go to your reference, read the article in question and make up their own minds.

     Surely you could have made your point without using material of that sort, and made it just as well if not better.  I'm not bothered by your disagreement, here, Mike.  The disagreement is reasonably small, whether Israel is in the right and the Palestinians in the wrong or whether they're both doing savage and unnecessary damage to each other to the benefit of neither.  If you're going to make your point, make it with solid facts.  For heaven's sake, you like and respect General Petraeus and the U.S. military in general.

[This message has been edited by Bob K (06-14-2010 07:51 PM).]

Huan Yi
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107 posted 06-15-2010 10:31 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"This is rather interesting info about the Gaza tunnels. Pics of the tunnels are all over the net for our doubting Thomases who’d care to check. Anyway, begs the question, if Israel is so concerned about security, worried about rocket making materials coming into Gaza, then why do they leave so many of the tunnels operational, wide open for smuggling in rocket making materials? No jam or coriander allowed in aid shipments coming through the front door, but more or less turning a blind eye to anything at all coming through the back door."

So you believe that they are operational and the Israelis know where they are?
So you believe they are operational and yet Gaza is starving?

.  
JenniferMaxwell
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108 posted 06-15-2010 12:05 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Question 1 Answer - Absolutely, some of the tunnels are operational and clearly visible!

Question 2 Answer - Yes, I believe there are “starving” babies, children and adults in Gaza. The tunnels are operational, black market food supplies from Egypt are extremely expensive and something like 40% of Gazans are unemployed. 80% of the population depends on food aid and the aid is about 25% of what it was in 2006.

Do you have credible sources to prove otherwise?

Why do you think Israel hasn’t (didn't even during operation Cast Lead) destroyed all the tunnels? Not a sarcastic question, I’m really just trying to figure it out.

Huan Yi
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109 posted 06-15-2010 12:12 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

You're asking to prove a negative?

I think they destroy all they can find and get to, or if they do indeed leave one open, it would be to find out
who comes out and where they go.


.
JenniferMaxwell
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110 posted 06-15-2010 01:01 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Not really asking to prove a negative, just asking for credible sources that might show the statements/facts I’ve found/posted are wrong.

I thought about that, wondered if the Israelis were trying to find where smuggled weapons/rockets, etc. were being stashed. But after I did some research, found out there were many, many tunnels and volume of materials being smuggled was off the chart, to my mind seemed impossible they could track or even know every item coming in.

Huan Yi
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111 posted 06-15-2010 02:07 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"volume of materials being smuggled was off the chart"


So the blockade is wholly ineffectual?
The rocket attacks continue at their
same rate as before?
.
Balladeer
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112 posted 06-15-2010 02:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So why exactly did you give 4 links to that site, Bob?

"I invite anybody interested to go to your reference, read the article in question and make up their own minds."

So do I. That's why I posted the link. You are the only one to have a problem with it.

btw, I don't respond to things I think not worthy or responses. Just so you know....
JenniferMaxwell
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113 posted 06-15-2010 02:36 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Seems to me the blockade is pretty ineffectual when banned items are slipping in through the back door daily. Fewer rockets being fired doesn’t mean they don’t exist, aren’t coming in, aren’t being stockpiled. Or perhaps what is coming in, maybe being stockpiled, could even be more dangerous or more deadly?

Grinch
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114 posted 06-15-2010 02:56 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
So the blockade is wholly ineffectual?


If the object of the exercise is to cut off the supply of rockets into Gaza the blockade isn’t working.

If the object of the exercise is to inflict suffering on the people of Gaza the blockade is a rip roaring success.

Jen,

The tunnels are out in the open only on the Egyptian side of the border, in Gaza the entrances are generally in the cellars of buildings to avoid detection. The Israelis target any they discover. In operation Cast Lead for instance they claimed that they’d destroyed 2850 suspected tunnel entrances on the Gaza side, leaving an estimated 150 undiscovered and intact.

When trying to work out what goes through the tunnels you need to remember that they’re private enterprise ventures – each costing up to $80,000 to excavate – consequently they’re used to transport only the things that can return a healthy profit in Gaza. Food for the masses who can’t pay the high asking prices, unfortunately, isn’t on that list.

.
Huan Yi
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115 posted 06-15-2010 03:19 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Have the supply of rockets been decreased,
(has the rate of attacks and or number of rockets fired decreased)?

  

.
Grinch
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116 posted 06-15-2010 03:37 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Has the supply of rockets decreased?

Probably not.

The price for transporting them through the tunnels will have risen though, but Saudi Arabia has deep pockets so that won't effect demand. My guess is that the ratio of weapons to luxury goods being transported through the Egyptian/ Gaza tunnels has probably increased.

So there’s no need to worry Huan - The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades aren’t likely to run short of rockets any time soon.

.
JenniferMaxwell
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117 posted 06-15-2010 04:53 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Thanks Grinch, appreciate the info. But now I have even more questions. Later on those.
When/if you have a chance could you recommend sources, books, etc., please? Thanks!
Huan Yi
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118 posted 06-15-2010 05:36 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


A simple question is
is Hamas which governs Gaza in a proclaimed war
against Israel?  If yes, what is Israel supposed to do
in defense of its own citizens?


.
JenniferMaxwell
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119 posted 06-15-2010 07:00 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Let’s see, Israel has confined Gaza civilians as well as Hamas members in an open air prison, cut food supplies, medical supplies, withheld materials needed to repair/maintain the power, water purification, sewage disposal plants, homes destroyed in operation cast lead, bombed civilians trapped in that prison, and effectively occupied the strip from outside the wall. A better question might be what should Hamas do to defend the citizens of Gaza?
The borders were closed before Hamas, weren't they, Israel controlled who and what entered and left the strip?


Grinch
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120 posted 06-15-2010 07:13 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
is Hamas which governs Gaza in a proclaimed war
against Israel?


Yes and No.

Technically it’s classified as a conflict though Israel are accepted by the international community to be an occupying force, controlling both airspace and territorial waters.

quote:
If yes, what is Israel supposed to do
in defense of its own citizens?


The same thing that the Turkish, to their credit, did recently. Seek a diplomatic solution.

Or do you think it would have been preferable if Turkey declared a state of war? Under international law they’re well within their rights to do so and Turkey could quite easily blockade Israel. They have the largest navy in the Mediterranean, the third largest in Europe. Their air force is one of the largest in NATO and they have the second largest standing army, second only to the US in that organisation. Not to mention that they have nuclear capability.

What should Turkey do in defence of their citizens Huan?

What about the Palestinians – what should they do? After all the Israelis have killed more Palestinians than the Palestinians have killed Israelis. Should they sit back and ignore the attacks on their citizens, or are they right to defend themselves?

Jen

I’m a little reluctant to recommend any single source, most of them are biased in one way or another and even those trying to be even-handed fall victim to using allegedly universally known facts that often turn out to be anything but factual.

This is useful, but don’t take everything they say as 100% true  - they have an agenda too.
http://www.btselem.org/Download/2009_Annual_Report_Eng.pdf
.
Bob K
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121 posted 06-15-2010 07:28 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I have seen no evidence of such a proclamation, John.

     Perhaps other folks have a better notion of counterintelligence strategy than I do, but the way I understand things is that if you have identified a situation, like a tunnel or an agent in place, it is often better to let the situation keep functioning in an ambiguous fashion.  That is, you can choose at any point to shut it down, but while it functions, you are able to trace much of the information and materiel that flows through.  You end up with a much more valuable asset if you continue to allow it to function and to expose the various distribution pipelines through which the information and materiel flows and through which management of the asset arrives.

     It becomes a gift that keeps on giving for you.

     If you shut it down, you may stop the flow of information and materiel for an undetermined amount of time, but the other folks involved, the enemy, will always be clear which information and which agents are compromised and which aren't.  If you shut down some, then you introduce a certain amount of paranoia into the situation, which becomes better, and makes the enemy turn on his own agents in an almost random fashion, depending on which stresses you place on their system.  Skillfully done, one intelligence system can make another virtually dismantle itself.  It becomes almost impossible to distinguish between information and disinformation, reality and fantasy.

     Some would say the the old KGB had the CIA in this bind through much of the cold war, and used the CIA counterintelligence chief James Jesus Angelton to destroy the effectiveness of the Agency from within with a series of internal witch-hunts.  Some say that Angleton may have been a KGB Double himself.  Some say that Angleton never succeeded in reaching the bottom of the most devious set of espionage maneuvers in history and died a broken man.

     Whatever the truth, this has the hallmarks of a brilliant operation, leading back to the very beginnings of the cold war.

     What we're talking about in Gaza, leaving functional tunnels in place is simply standard operating procedure.

     The economics of the thing suggest that food and relief supplies would probably crowd out war materiel for the majority of the smuggled goods, and that the guns versus butter issues, as economists like to call this sort of thing, has probably reached some sort of market equilibrium.

     Evidence?

      One might examine the number of trucks full of food coming in versus the number of body bags being buried and see if there is some sort of change on one side or the other.  A marked change in one or the other would suggest market forces have shifted in one or the other direction.  Our figures aren't all that good, as the fudging we've witnessed so far would seem to suggest, but the figures would probably have to be clear and steady, amounting to a trend, and that should be visible.

     What are my sources?

     This is an analysis of data and a piece of opinion, and as such, I'm not offering that sort of support.  I'm using data that you folks have supplied and sorting it the best I can.  What I actually know for sure about any of this could be written on a grain of sand with room left over for battalions of angels to hold polka elimination night.

     To those of you who find this obvious, my apologies. I do go on.

    

    
Huan Yi
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122 posted 06-15-2010 11:53 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"A better question might be what should Hamas do to defend the citizens of Gaza? "

Oh please.  If you are a citizen of Gaza
and openly disagree with Hamas you don't
have to worry about Israel.  The best thing
Hamas could do for the people of Gaza
is leave.

.
Bob K
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123 posted 06-16-2010 01:16 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Hamas is the legally elected and freely choses government of Gaza, John.  Nobody said you had to love them.  Leaving might feel like they best thing they could go from the standpoint of the Likud, but nobody seems to think that the Likud had a right to vote in Palestinian elections but the Likud and perhaps the American hard Right, who seems to feel that Democracy is reserved for those we like and whom we feel agree with us.

     I wonder what the outcome would have been if the English Crown had been given a vote in the American elections in the early years of the United States, hmmm?
JenniferMaxwell
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124 posted 06-16-2010 03:46 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34jPNN0qdF8&feature=channel
 
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