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Passions in Poetry

Flotilla Choir presents: We Con the World

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Grinch
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225 posted 06-26-2010 01:31 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
if you consider my stone a personal attack, you must do the same for hers.


I gave Jen the benefit of the doubt Mike, at the time I didnít see her comment as an attack, but you did, you decided it was an underhand attack and decided to repay the favour, Jen said that a personal attack wasnít her intent and I believe her. Iíd have given you the benefit doubt too Mike but you admitted that it definitely was your intent, I believe you too Mike Ė Iíve no reason not to.

By your own admission Mike you intentionally set out to do exactly what youíre accusing Jen of doing.

Like I said Ė very classy.

.
Balladeer
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226 posted 06-26-2010 01:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I have no idea why Jennifer brought it up but, since it now seems to be the main concern here, I'll follow up on it. It was in reference  to this thread http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/001944-3.html.

I had taken a hiatus from the Alley because it had basically dissolved into little more than insulting other members and, yes, I had been part of it. In that particular thread, I had not taken part, although I followed it. Jennifer decided to try to bring me into it with a personal insult, which she did. When I remarked tht she should keep a personal insult against me out of  a thread I was not even a part of, she responded by thanking me for allowing her to win five dollars on a bet to get me to respond. I replied that five dollars was about her right price.

The interesting thing was that no one took it as a way of calling her a hooker, which it wasn't. After the comment, Jennifer herself thanked me for joining the thread and never mentioned the comment. Grinch, you who wants to know all about it, you were an active poster in that thread and said nothing about it, either, so it couldn't have made much of an impression on you.. Bob K, also a major part of the thread, also had nothing to say about it. It was a non-event, a small spar between Jennifer and I.

Afterwards, a person riding to the aid of Jennifer, issued a complaint, sort of, to the moderator forum and a discussion ensued. Due to site policy, details of mod forum discussions are not made public, suffice to say that Jennifer was a large part of that discussion and the thought of me calling her a "hooker" never came up.  The issue was that referred to her as "classless". I acknowledged that and apologized for the comment, offering to delete it, which was rejected. The issue was resolved without consequence.

For some reason known only to her, now, 3 months later, she decides to throw it into a thread where it has no meaning or anything to do with anything here. I must assume that, being charged with insulting Denise, she decided to pick up whatever rocks were within reach to throw them back. How she came up with that particular rock is beyond me. Some people just lash out when feeling defensive. I don't pretend to know how Jennifer's mind works. Has it taken her three months to determine that she was called a name? She never was and it seems like nothing more to throw in to the conversation to take the focus off her insulting, which it did.

grinch, with your multiple prodding on bringing this incident up, I must assume you are doing it for a reason, such as using it to launch another avenue of attack and personal insulting. It's not going to work. This reply is informational, not conversational. It was an issue that was brought up, discussed and resolved with all parties satisfied with the results, Jennifer included. Her reasoning for referring to it now is known only to her.

No, Essorant, there were no deletions and no cover-ups or nefarious dealings of the administration. No conspiracies. It's there as it has been. Why Jennifer attributed it, or at least, mentioned it to Denise is anyone's guess unless even she can't remember it very well.
Balladeer
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227 posted 06-26-2010 01:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

And still you continue, grinch....that's fine. These will be the last words we exchange, at any rate. You will have to aim arrows elsewhere, which you should have no problem doing.

I'm off to the golf course, where people wear funny pants but are friendly. FORE!
Grinch
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228 posted 06-26-2010 02:35 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
grinch, with your multiple prodding on bringing this incident up, I must assume you are doing it for a reason


Iím pretty sure youíll find that I didnít bring it up, was I prodding for answers? Sure Ė along with Huan and Ess, was there a reason? Hell yes Ė I was curious.

So it was you who instigated Jens $5 hooker comment, thanks for letting us know.

quote:
Grinch, you who wants to know all about it, you were an active poster in that thread and said nothing about it


I definitely would have if Iíd seen it Mike and Iíd have reported it as inappropriate, unfortunately I didnít see it, Youíll notice my last post was roughly 3 hours before your post and I didnít post after it, which is probably why I missed it.

Iíve read it now though

quote:
No problem. Five bucks seems to be about your right price. Buy some class with it.


Very classy.

quote:
It was an issue that was brought up, discussed and resolved with all parties satisfied with the results, Jennifer included.


Are you sure? It doesnít sound like Jen was very satisfied Mike and frankly I donít blame her.

I'm off to watch Football and cheer on the USA.

  

Darn it 1-0 down..  
Penalty 1-1..  

[This message has been edited by Grinch (06-26-2010 03:47 PM).]

Denise
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229 posted 06-26-2010 04:22 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Your link didn't work, Michael. Here is the full context that led to the initial comment in question:
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/001944-3.html#50

No, Grinch, Michael did not 'instigate' Jen's $5 'hooker' comment. And note Jennifer's subsequent comment in post #56:

quote:
And finally, nice to see you posting again Balladeer. I was worried you wouldn't come back. That really would have made me feel bad.


She made no comment that she felt that she was insulted at all, nor being called a $5 hooker. Someone else interpreted Michael's comment that way and flagged it to the Mod Forum. That interpretation was not Michael's intent. Nonetheless, Michael apologized, and offered to have it deleted, as he said.  The issue was resolved to the satisfaction of everyone involved, including Jennifer. If she wasn't really satisfied and didn't want it marked 'Resolved', she certainly had ample opportunity to object, which she did not, but rather, concurred that the issue was indeed resolved.

Only she can tell you why she brought it up again, and in the context that she did.
Grinch
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230 posted 06-26-2010 04:37 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

So Mikeís remark didnít instigate this response Denise?

quote:
I let your $5 hooker personal attack go but I am getting very tired of seeing you, a moderator, trying to press a PiP member into making a comment about another memberís character or intentions. So, Balladeer, Iím asking you to stop. If you want to attack me again, take your best shot, but stop trying to drag other PiP members into your little personal vendetta.


That's the $5 hooker comment I was talking about.

2-1 to Ghana btw
2-1 final score
Oh well.. USA played well but it wasn't to be.
.
.
Balladeer
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231 posted 06-26-2010 05:50 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, a $5 dollar hooker personal attack that didn't happen and was not questioned by Jennifer until another joined in.

Thanks, Denise, but don't bother. We all know what happened and how fairly it was handled with Jenn's participation and acceptance. You're not going to convince those who aren't interested in both sides and, frankly, you are wasting your time.

Nor  does anyone question why she would mention it in this thread, where it makes no sense at all.

Thanks but let it go. Stone.
Balladeer
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232 posted 06-26-2010 06:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

It's very easy to present things in a way that presents whatever agenda you have, like the quote grinch posted above. It was in a thread made almost a month after the other one and dealt with my asking BobK if a comment Jen made was correct. SInce he didn't want to acknowledge whether it was or not, it put both he and Jennifer in an uncomfortable situation. That prompted her comment and accusation that I was trying to enlist other membeers against her. He also didn't post my comment which followed...

-------------------------------------------
No, I don't have it at all and your accusations are groundless. I have said nothing about judging your character at all, Jennifer. You can say whatever you want to. The entries of yours that I used for examples are entries you posted.  You labeled certain comments as hate speech. I asked Bob if he considered them to be that, as well, since the two of you have such similar thoughts and feelings on so many topics. There is nothing out of line there. If you aren't willing to have your comments come under scrutiny, don't post them.

She has made the assertion that the comments listed are hate speech. Do you agree?
---------------------------------------------

That was it. That was the question that solicited the venom....and my response. Since she pulled out the "hooker" comment then (for actually the very first time), in a situation that put her on the defensive and has also pulled it out here, due to being in a position that put her on the defensive, I would assume that's just something that she does. As I said, I can't read her mind.
Grinch
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233 posted 06-26-2010 06:33 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Yes, a $5 dollar hooker personal attack that didn't happen


Are you saying that you didnít post this Mike:

No problem. Five bucks seems to be about your right price. Buy some class with it.

Or are you saying that Jen misunderstood your comment, that you didnít mean that she was a low class female who could be bought for five bucks?

Semi-permeable concrete
.
Balladeer
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234 posted 06-26-2010 06:46 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Jen didn't misunderstand it. SHe didn't even question it.

I'll repeat - and for the last time...

This reply is informational, not conversational. It was an issue that was brought up, discussed and resolved with all parties satisfied with the results, Jennifer included. Her reasoning for referring to it now is known only to her.

Don't expect me to respond to you again, grinch. We are finished here.
Grinch
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235 posted 06-26-2010 07:27 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Jen didn't misunderstand it. SHe didn't even question it.


Got it Mike Ė she understood that you called her a $5 hooker.

Iím glad we cleared that up.

Jen,

Why did you bring up Mikes comment after the discussion you were involved in at the time and after accepting that the matter was Ďresolvedí?

Just curious.

Adobe
Bob K
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236 posted 06-26-2010 07:50 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     The remark was not directed at Denise.

     Mike tendered an apology.

     If Jennifer wants to rehash it, I assume she'll say so when she gets back.  I would hope she regards it as finished because it was difficult all around, including for her, but for Mike as well.

     Mike isn't really in a position to defend himself without reopening the whole thing without Jennifer being here, and the whole thing was to have been finished at that time.

     Mike's use of the word "stone" in his posting was a puzzle to me that I really didn't understand.  I find that pretending that I do understand things when I don't understand them is often a mistake, so I asked.  It was not my intention to get Mike buried beneath an avalanche here, to whatever extent that I have contributed to it.  It did seem to me that Mike was getting a bit personal with Jennifer, and I had hopes of preventing that from happening.  I wanted to keep both of them safe from that sort of bruising because, which they are bright and capable adults, we all have our weaknesses.  And I for one feel better with both of them involved in the conversation because their opinions are so diverse and each of them feels their position so strongly.  That adds a lot for me.

     I like the way that Jennifer comes in with facts and details and I like the way Mike comes in with feeling and big intuitive leaps, if that isn't too Jungian, and that particular combination will frequently set off sparks.  Will almost always set off sparks.  

     If the two of them want to pursue the issue further after Jennifer's return, then they probably could do so, but doing so ought to be their choice and ought not to be forced upon them by the curiosity of others.  

     My opinion, of course.
    
Balladeer
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237 posted 06-26-2010 08:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That's very decent of you, Bob. Thank you...
Grinch
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238 posted 06-26-2010 08:57 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
If the two of them want to pursue the issue further after Jennifer's return, then they probably could do so, but doing so ought to be their choice and ought not to be forced upon them by the curiosity of others.


They can do as they please in private Bob, I was commenting on remarks posted on an open forum that, as far as I can see, is in the public domain and open for discussion.

Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything Ė Jen chose to bring the subject up and Mike chose to reply Ė I simply supplied the curiosity.

If they donít want people to comment then they should take it offline.

.
Denise
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239 posted 06-26-2010 09:24 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

How can you believe that her comment was not directed at me, Bob, considering the context of her 'stone' comment immediately following her statement to Grinch not to waste his time posting things to me?

You yourself said that you thought she meant I was 'stone cold' or 'cold hearted' and Grinch thought she meant that I was 'impervious to logical argument', due to a comment that I had previously made. That sounds personal to me.

Is that acceptable to you? I guess so, because you now say it wasn't directed to me at all, and Grinch is giving her the benefit of the doubt, AFTER you both stated what your understanding of her cryptic comment was, which was in line with my understanding of it exactly. How lovely. It's no better than if she had typed Dense or Blockhead, or some other pejorative term, instead of Stone, and you guys are okay with it?

And then she throws the '$5 hooker' bomb my way, leaving it twisting in the wind while she goes off for a long weekend, leaving the impression that I was guilty of a slur against her in the past that never even happened, and knowing that most people here wouldn't have a clue as to what she was referring. How nice. Nothing wrong with that either I suppose, is there?

If Jennifer wants to rehash it?? It's not up to Jennifer, Bob. She owes me an explanation and an apology. Then she can regard it as finished, if she wishes. And difficult for her? Well, let me tell ya, her slanderous innuendo and dragging me into her little sniping game hasn't exactly been a picnic for me. Is that of any importance to you?
Bob K
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240 posted 06-27-2010 04:35 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Yes, Denise, it is.

     The comment I was speaking of was the monetary one, which I thought had no relationship to you.  I didn't want to rehash that particular comment.

     Your comments about how Hamas had killed Palestinians and used those deaths to blame Israelis were short on support and long on conjecture, to put a good face on them.  I am not fond of Hamas, but I would want more solid information than your assertion to base any agreement upon.  I notice that when the accusations start being directed in the direction of the Right Wing, you are ó and I think correctly ó somebody who wants to see solid confirmation of an assertion before you will lend any agreement to it.  

     When you make an assertion like that, you should expect others to have the same reaction you would.  The reaction is, after all, human enough.  In the absence of such confirmation, assertions like yours do come off badly, as you would assert even against assertions against right wing folks from fairly well established sources by calling them things such as Lamestream media, after the practice of Ms. Palin.  And these are media who will name their sources, at least a fair amount of the time, and who attempt to issue confirmable reports.

     Do I fault you for being upset?  
    
     No, you have a right to your feelings.

     I had no impression that she felt you were responsible for the slur against her.  I know for certain you were not.  Your comments about Hamas and the Palestinians were, I thought, unsupported and they certainly took me aback.  Zionist hard liners and Palestinian terrorists have done and said a lot of pretty rough things to each other over the years, so I can't claim it didn't or couldn't happen.  But it's reasonably clear that the zionists defended kibbutzim with kids living on them, with schools and infirmaries as well, during the 1948 war, and made it sound heroic, while the defense of schools and hospitals is now made to sound cowardly when it's done by the Palestinians.

     I think the difference lies in who's writing the news releases, in large part.

     I'd rather leave children and wounded folks out of wars entirely.

     Your method of describing the situation sounded very cold to me in that posting.  I suspect it didn't sound that way to you, but to me it did.  If you'd said the same thing about the Israelis and said it unilaterally, I'd probably have much the same reaction, by the way.  Part of the problem with this conflict is that each party sees itself as faultless and demonizes the other, and when we go along with that point of view I believe we help prolong the conflict.

    
Bob K
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241 posted 06-27-2010 04:38 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Mr. Grinch, your point about taking the issue off-line is an excellent one, and you are right to make it.  
Grinch
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242 posted 06-27-2010 05:17 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Grinch is giving her the benefit of the doubt, AFTER you both stated what your understanding of her cryptic comment was


I gave Jen the benefit of doubt after she explained what she meant by the Ďstoneí comment Denise, which was a reply to the suggestion that it was a personal attack. At the time of the original comment I didnít interpret it as such Ė I thought Jen was simply voicing the frustration that, as youíve agreed, we all feel from time to time.  I didnít interpret Mikeís use of it as a personal attack either - until Mike insisted that it was meant as an attack

quote:
And then she throws the '$5 hooker' bomb my way, leaving it twisting in the wind while she goes off for a long weekend, leaving the impression that I was guilty of a slur against her in the past that never even happened, and knowing that most people here wouldn't have a clue as to what she was referring.


Were you one of the people who had a clue Denise? Were you involved in the original discussion regarding the $5 hooker comment? Your comments regarding the events and what did, and didnít, happen seem to suggest that you were aware of the comment. If so why did you believe that the remark was aimed at you when you knew it was aimed at Mike?

.
Grinch
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243 posted 06-27-2010 05:18 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Bob,

Sorry I missed your post - Iíll curb my curiosity and make that my last comment until Jen gets back.

.
Denise
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244 posted 06-27-2010 09:50 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

No matter how outrageous you think my comment was, Bob, it doesn't justify a snarky cryptic comment indicating that I was 'stone-cold' or 'cold-hearted'. I'm sure you wouldn't tolerate it being done to Jennifer and you would immediately come to her defense and call the alleged offender on the carpet.

Grinch, so it's fine with you that she used a pejorative term indicating that I was 'impervious to logical arugment' due to her frustration? Even if you buy her explanation that she was only expressing her frustration by the uselessness of the back and forth banter (in which she continued to engage in afterward), she still engaged in name-calling to express her frustration.

What I knew or didn't know about the history that led to her hooker comment isn't the point, Grinch. The point is the impression that she created here with her post to me about it, knowing that I couldn't freely discuss it. 99% of the people here wouldn't have a clue as to what she was talking about, that such a slur never actually happened by anybody here in the first place (it was one person's impression of the comment, which was discussed and resolved by those involved at the time), and that I didn't make a slur like that against her. That's the point.

Grinch
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245 posted 06-27-2010 10:13 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Grinch, so it's fine with you that she used a pejorative term indicating that I was 'impervious to logical arugment' due to her frustration?


But according to Jen she didnít Denise. I was the one who thought she meant that, she said she didnít , so I gave her the benefit of the doubt.

Do I think that itís ok to say that someone is Ďimpervious to logical argumentí?

Yes. Itís just another way of saying that someone is unlikely to change their opinion despite being presented with reasonable arguments to do so. Saying it is one thing, proving it is another thing entirely.

.
Denise
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246 posted 06-27-2010 11:25 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
Grinch: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/.
  
Jennifer Maxwell: Save your typing, Grinch. Stone.


quote:
Jennifer Maxwell: The point was the back and forth banter was pointless, no one was going to change their point of view.


So am I to believe that her original comment was not referring to me, in particular, considering the context, and then her subsequent referencing of post #48, paragraph 2, in her explanation, in which Carse referred to people turning to stone, and that she was simply referring to pointless back and forth banter, in which she continued to engage in, nonetheless, afterward? Sorry Grinch, I'm not buying it. Her attempted 'save' falls short.  Her reference to Carse's comment actually proves the original intent of her comment.

Anyway, on a lighter note, I was surprised that, who was it from the US team, Donovan, I think (?), who made a comment prior to the game, that the Ghana team would be tough to beat, given that East African's are so athetically endowed. I cringed when I heard it, waiting for an uproarious backlash. One of our sportscasters of long-standing lost his job making such a comment about African Americans a few years back. I was relieved that no one made an issue of it this time. I just feel bad for the sportscaster who lost his career and reputation over a similar comment that was framed as racially derogatory (?) Go figure.
Essorant
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247 posted 06-27-2010 12:18 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Why take the word "stone" so negatively?

A diamond is a stone too.  
Grinch
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248 posted 06-27-2010 12:41 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
So am I to believe that her original comment was not referring to me


Believe what you like Denise, I can only tell you what I believed at the time, which is that  I didnít see an issue with the Ďstoneí comment when Jen used it or when Mike used it. The only thing that changed was when Jen said that she didnít mean it as a personal attack and Mike admitted he did.
Iím willing to believe both of them, if you donít then you need to take it up with them.

BTW

England lived up to my expectations, a complete and utter defeat at the hands of the Germans. Guess Iíll have to cheer on the Japanese from here on in, though my support seems to be the kiss of death.


Denise
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249 posted 06-27-2010 03:08 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Hahahaha...that's too funny Ess! She actually meant that I was a beautifully brilliant, multi-faceted gem, instead of a cold-hearted lump of rock!

You are a man of great faith, Grinch!

Enjoy your football. I've lost interest now that we are out of the running.

 
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