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Mosque near WTC site

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JenniferMaxwell
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50 posted 08-07-2010 05:25 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

And there was no excuse for Shock and Awe or the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians.
JenniferMaxwell
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51 posted 08-07-2010 10:13 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"Despite the uproar over the so-called Ground Zero Mosque - in fact a Muslim community center several blocks away - Muslims have been gathering for years at Islamic prayer centers at West Point, several Air Force Bases, Quantico Marine Corps Base and, yes, the Pentagon - where 184 people died on 9/11. But do let's manufacture more right-wing hysteria over Islam infiltrating life as we know it; it's so helpful toward fostering understanding."

- Common Dreams

Bob K
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52 posted 08-08-2010 05:06 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I've copied the definitions of "crusade" from the dictionary function thoughtfully attached to PiP.  I noticed that there are several meanings attached to the word, what Denise, I believe, has described as "levels of meaning," if I understand here correctly.

quote:



cru·sade   [kroo-seyd]  Show IPA noun, verb, -sad·ed, -sad·ing.
–noun
1.
( often initial capital letter ) any of the military expeditions undertaken by the Christians of Europe in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries for the recovery of the Holy Land from the Muslims.
2.
any war carried on under papal sanction.
3.
any vigorous, aggressive movement for the defense or advancement of an idea, cause, etc.: a crusade against child abuse.
–verb (used without object)
4.
to go on or engage in a crusade.
Use crusade in a Sentence
Origin:
1570–80;  earlier crusada  < Sp cruzada;  r. croisade  < MF. See cross, -ade1

—Related forms
cru·sad·er, noun
non·cru·sad·ing, adjective
post-Cru·sade, adjective
pre-Cru·sade, adjective
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2010.
Cite This Source | Link To crusade

Explore the Visual Thesaurus »
Related Words for : crusade
agitate, campaign, fight, press, push
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World English Dictionary
crusade  (kruːˈseɪd)

— n
1. ( often capital ) any of the military expeditions undertaken in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries by the Christian powers of Europe to recapture the Holy Land from the Muslims
2. (formerly) any holy war undertaken on behalf of a religious cause
3. a vigorous and dedicated action or movement in favour of a cause

— vb
4. to campaign vigorously for something
5. to go on a crusade

[C16: from earlier croisade,  from Old French crois  cross, from Latin crux;  influenced also by Spanish cruzada,  from cruzar  to take up the cross]

cru'sader

— n

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
Cite This Source
Word Origin & History

crusade
1706, respelling of croisade  (1577), from M.Fr. croisade,  Sp. cruzada,  both from M.L. cruciata,  pp. of cruciare  "to mark with a cross," from L. crux  (gen. crucis ) "cross." Figurative sense of "campaign against a public evil" is from 1786.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper
Cite This Source
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     Other dictionaries would doubtless parse the word differently in to other "levels of meaning."

     This is one of the ways we attempt to understand words, and not a bad way; but it does not solve the problem that we have with the word "jihad," which we are trying to understand here.  The major understanding of "jihad" has to do with spiritual quest to subordinate one's self to the will of God, what the literature calls, "The Greater Jihad."  Denise references this herself, and rightfully so.

     MNy understanding of the religion of Islam is that this notion, the subordination of one's self to the will of God, is the core element of that religion.  "Islam," the word itself, means "subordination," or perhaps" obedience."

     Some Muslims find themselves attracted to the lesser Jihad, the militant approach to the religion.  Much of the material that Denise speaks about is descriptive of that minority view.

     My issue with Denise's hypothesis is that I believe that she has her emphasis reversed.  It appears that she lays the majority of her concern on the Lesser Jihad, and misses the point of the religion she is trying to talk about.  She and many of her allies on the right, thought by no means all of them, are mischaracterizing the religion of Islam, and are portraying Muslims as enemies of the United States.

     Some Muslims are, in fact, Enemies of the United States.

     So are some Catholics, some Protestants, dome Taoist, some hindus and some Jews.

     To break down the current conflict around terrorist into a purely religious conflict misses the political elements of it and the economic elements of it, to name only two of many other possible factors.

     To suggest that the problem is that we are hated because we are not Muslim is to ignore our responsibility over the past hundred and fifty years or so as part of Western Civilization in creating the foreign policies that have helped create the current situation.  It ignores the economic elements of the oil industry that currently help maintain the conflict, and it helps maintain the childish fantasy that we are powerless to change the ways in which we relate to the rest of the world.

     We are not powerless.  We are willfully blind.

     None of this justifies 9/11.

     neither does it justify our supporting a series of dictators in power in the middle east against the wishes of their populations.  Actions such as these, our support for the Shah of Iran, for example; and of Saddam Hussein in Iraq — originally our guy, if folks care to remember that far back, and our continued support of the Egyptian Government and the Saudi Government, all these actions have seriously damaged our standing with Muslims in the middle east.

     And I say this without even bringing up the Israeli situation, where there is enough villainy on all sides to confuse the issues of culpability completely.

     Even our Last President Bush, with whom I have had few points of agreement, knew enough to be clear that Islam was not the enemy.

     They have the same right to have the same number of lunatics among their ranks as any other group you can name, and I'd be willing to bet that  they're no crazier than any other reasonable normal group of religious folks, and if some of them believe in things that many of the rest of us find a bit crazy, I can't see how they're all that much different there, either.  Some of us believe in the triumph of reason, you know, and you can't get much crazier than that.  And I know people who've spoken to angels, and I'd wager many of you do too, though you may not want to talk about it in public.
Denise
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53 posted 08-08-2010 11:33 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think killing innocent civilians and then justifying it in the name of your god is a bit crazier and much more dangerous than other crazy lunatic religious beliefs, Bob.
Grinch
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54 posted 08-08-2010 12:00 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
I think killing innocent civilians and then justifying it in the name of your god is a bit crazier and much more dangerous than other crazy lunatic religious beliefs


You can't blame all Christians for that Denise - it's just a small subset of Christians who think and act that way.

.
JenniferMaxwell
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55 posted 08-08-2010 01:28 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell


"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition".
Denise
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56 posted 08-08-2010 04:38 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Really Grinch? Christians are doing that too? Can you point me to some examples. I haven't heard anything about that at all on the net, from Fox or from the MSM.
JenniferMaxwell
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57 posted 08-08-2010 05:03 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"I am driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it." - GWB

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58 posted 08-08-2010 06:19 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Christians have been killing civilians in the name of their god for centuries Denise, you don't need the internet to verify that. If you want to check out some examples though you could check out the witch trials, the inquisition, the English civil war or, a particularly nasty example - the Spanish settlement of America.

"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him."

Chris Columbus

.
Bob K
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59 posted 08-08-2010 07:57 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     One of the problems of the use of the word "crusade" in the occasional speech about the middle east by President Bush and by other Americans is that the word "Crusade" and the history of the crusades is seen very differently by Muslims than it is by Christians.  The American and allied actions in Iraq especially are a powerful reminder of that era from many Muslims.

     Those speeches from President Bush were very provocative, and they were seen in the context of American bombing of Iraq, and the resulting casualties.  Those casualties in the United States were presented as low and humane.  

     You might check with Grinch as to how they were reported in other countries, or you might check for yourself.  I don't think you'd believe me if you understood exactly how large a number of innocent people much of the rest of the world hold the United States — the Christian United States, as President Bush tried to paint us, I believe incorrectly — responsible for murdering.

     Some folks go back as far as the blockade during the Clinton administration, and hold us responsible for what some folks claim to be as many as half a million Iraqi casualties from starvation and lack of medicine.  Because the United States is seen as being on the side of the Israelis, this is seen as part of a Zionist plot as well by many Muslims.  The whole situation is distorted and very ugly indeed.

     But to answer your question, Denise, those would be the Christians involved most directly to many Muslim minds.  Just as, to many American minds, so many Muslims are unjustly responsible for the activities of some fairly extreme fanatics.  The difference being that the Muslims have more American government complicity to point to in spinning their conspiracy theories.  Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and we did bomb them.

     Go figure.
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60 posted 08-08-2010 09:18 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Despite the propoganda of some there aren't Christian Crusaders running around the world killing innocent civilians to curry the favor of their diety. The same can't be said of Islamists. How many did the Taliban just kill the other day, 8 or 9 Christian relief workers?

Yes, civilians are killed in war. It is a terrible tragedy whenever it happens. They aren't delibertely targeted, though. The same can't be said of Islamists.

The U.S. has done more than any other nation in the world in coming to the aid of Muslim nations afflicted by tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, and famines. And I was under the impression that the Iraqis and Afghans were overjoyed to be rid of their dictators and to have a shot at freedom. So I don't believe that it is the populations in general who despise us, I believe it is the Islamists who are so mired in their hatred of Israel and the U.S. that nothing we could do would ultimately placate them. They still cling to their animosity over the Crusades from 800 years ago, as if they played no role in it. They do the same today. They take no responsibility for their actions that instigate conflicts.  
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61 posted 08-08-2010 10:10 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I guess what Denise is trying to say is that the cleric involved with said gzm has more connections to people with wahabism then poeple with much tamer forms of Islam (like in central Asia.

I heard this guy speak for like 20 - 30 minutes. It is my personal opinion that he is a loony.

His insensitivity and belligerence to those pointing out their concerns, is thee ONLY reason I believe that he is doing this as a giant middle finger to the US.

What kind of person opens a giant shopping mall by a grave yard.

However our constitution doesn't prevent them from building the building, like it won't prevent us from building an even bigger wtc....

That would be an even bigger middle finger.......    

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Ron
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62 posted 08-09-2010 02:09 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Yes, civilians are killed in war. It is a terrible tragedy whenever it happens.

There's that perspective thing again. Drawing a line in the sand between military and civilians is an American perspective, one conditioned by a few hundred years of culture. A willingness to change your perspective doesn't mean agreeing with everyone, but it is a prerequisite to understanding everyone. It's even, I think, a prerequisite to understanding ourselves.

Here's a different perspective.

There are no non-combatants. There are only people who shoot the guns and people who pay for the guns. Both carry equal responsibility for where the bullets land.

Again, no one has to agree with that perspective. Realizing that it exists, however, means that the intentional death of civilians is no longer grounds for automatic condemnation. Indeed, such a condemnation, without support, is an assumption that your perspective is the only one that counts.

Those assumptions, in large part, are the reasons wars are still being fought.
Bob K
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63 posted 08-09-2010 03:40 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



    
quote:


Despite the propaganda of some there aren't Christian Crusaders running around the world killing innocent civilians to curry the favor of their diety. The same can't be said of Islamists. How many did the Taliban just kill the other day, 8 or 9 Christian relief workers?

Yes, civilians are killed in war. It is a terrible tragedy whenever it happens. They aren't deliberately targeted, though. The same can't be said of Islamists.



     Everybody's got propaganda, Denise.

     Your statements suggest that they have it and we don't.

     I would really like to believe that, but I see not objective evidence that tells me that our propaganda is any more accurate that theirs is.  Nor do I believe that there is any way that an objective evaluation can be supplied at this point.  I continue to have a weakness for our western propaganda, mind you, but that is with awareness that we are talking about propaganda when we speak about many or most of our American news sources today, certainly including Fox, but also including many other sources.

     You apparently missed the part of my last posting where I said that I thought the United States was not in actuality a Christian nation, because you apparently believe that the question is whether or not Christians are acting as badly as Muslims.

     I don't think Christians or Muslims are behaving badly.  I think that a bunch of Jingoists on either side are behaving badly, and are trying to polarize otherwise well-meaning folks into a more general war for their own personal political gain.  Not even all of them are trying to do so.  You may remember I pointed out that President Bush apparently knew better than to try to assign blame to Muslims in general, while at the same time he was stupid enough to use poorly chosen and inflammatory language, such as the word choice of "crusade" to outline his plans.  It seems that he was mostly a well meaning guy in this regard at least.  This is more than I can say about some of the folks who are speaking on the right today, including Former Speaker Gingrich and Mr. Limbaugh.

     The more radical Muslim terrorist folks have made themselves fairly obvious.

     We have failed, frequently, to diustinguish them from main-stream Muslims.
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64 posted 11-22-2010 07:12 AM       View Profile for A Romantic Heart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for A Romantic Heart

The answer is no...

https://www.aclj.org/Petition/Default.aspx?sc=3612&ac=1&r=gzmg&s=google&gclid=COzBrKiytKUCFYLd4AodxhqBZA
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/08/17/kt-mcfarland-ground-zero-mosque-god-september-obama-imam-feisal/


In the Islamic tradition they build monuments to commemorate their great victories. When Muslims swept through the Middle East and Europe they spared towns where people gave over their churches and temples to be converted into mosques. For them a mosque acknowledges the site of a great victory in the name of Allah.

So while some see a mosque near Ground Zero as a commemoration for innocents who died; others could claim it as the place where Islamic terrorists triumphed. The Ground Zero mosque will have an athletic facilities and youth outreach programs, What guarantees do we have that it will never be used, officially or secretly, as a recruitment station for terrorists; that jihadists won’t lurk in the background of its athletic facilities and youth center recruiting potential suicide bombers?

We know in Great Britain and Germany some mosques are used to recruit suicide bombers. How much more potent would a mosque near Ground Zero be for those bent on jihad against America? Even the head of the terrorist Palestinian group Hamas has come out publicly in favor of the mosque.

Second, where is the money coming from? I’ve known Imam Feisal for years and his rather small mosque in Tribeca shows no evidence of having access to the $100 million dollars needed to build the mosque.

Where the money comes from is important because with it comes a say on what goes on there. If the donors are rich Kuwaitis grateful that America saved their country in the 1990s, that’s one thing. If it comes from the same people who support Al Qaeda or Gaza-bound flotillas, that’s quite another.

Finally, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf’s goal is an Islamic Center to promote religious harmony among Christians, Muslims and Jews. It’s been a consistent theme of his since I met him shortly after September 11, at a course he taught at my church in Manhattan.

His Cordoba Initiative is named after a Spanish city, which in the 8th century was controlled by Muslims and in which the three religions flourished. If Imam Feisal really wants to promote harmony among religions, why not make it an interfaith center – where Christians and Jews as well as Muslims hold religious services? This would guarantee that the peaceful goals of the Cordoba Initiative prevail long after the current controversy subsides.

Imam Feisal needs to address these concerns. But President Obama should stop painting this as a choice between freedom of religion and close-minded bigotry.

Kathleen Troia "K.T." McFarland is a Fox News National Security Analyst, and host of FoxNews.com’s "DEFCON3." She attended a two semester course in Islam taught by Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf at the Center for Religious Inquiry at St Bartholomew’s Church in Manhattan
Essorant
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65 posted 04-01-2011 09:05 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
... and close-minded bigotry.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/03/cnn-special-unwelcome-the-muslim-next-door/

 
moonbeam
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66 posted 04-02-2011 03:51 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Talking about dangerous loonies (and no, I'm not talking about the "Islamists"):

Terry Jones: How free speech and Quran burning can lead to violence (from the CS Monitor)

The violent protests Friday and Saturday appear to have been encouraged if not instigated by those opposed to the American-led western presence in Afghanistan, including supporters of the Taliban. A high school for girls supported by the US Agency for International Development (USAID) was among the targets.

For his part, Jones (who’s also written a book titled "Islam is of the Devil”) is unrepentant.

“Of course we were very saddened and devastated by that,” he told ABC News. “It is of course a terrible thing anytime anyone is killed.”

But, he went on, “I think it definitely does prove that there is a radical element of Islam.”


Duh!  Can you believe the holier than thou hypocrisy of the man!!
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67 posted 04-02-2011 07:43 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Ess? I had meant to catch that report...sigh.

As to the post prior to yours--my knee-jerk reaction is anger. But I'm trying now, to understand the person who types the words.

I've come to understand that bigotry is the knee-jerk reaction to fear; and at times that fear is coupled with a bit of indoctrination through societal mores.

Fear is a valid emotion, and as such it's not wrong. The reactions it provokes can be not only wrong, but disastrously so.

*smile*

Essorant, I watch you and learn.
 
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