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Still think the Republican led AZ legislature isn't racist?

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Grinch
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175 posted 05-23-2010 04:54 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Maybe it's already been noted,
but Arizona's law is attempting
to enforce federal laws which have
been on the books since the 40's.


Its not the fact that theyre trying to enforce the law thats the problem Huan, its that theyve passed a bad law to do it.

Its illegal to possess heroin, its been illegal for a long time right? Based on that would it be ok for Arizona to pass a law that allowed SWAT teams to enter any premises, guns blazing, and conduct a search based on nothing more than a suspicion?

Oklahoma has enacted legislation to address the problem of illegal aliens, it isnt perfect but when you read it you can tell it was written with some thought towards balancing the need to address a real problem and the need to maintain the rights of legal citizens. The Arizona law isnt and thats the real issue that people have with it.

Bob,

To tell you the truth Im not really interested who authored the bill either, I dont think it matters. Forming an opinion about the bill based on who wrote it seems, at least to me, to be the wrong way around. Id rather form an opinion about the people who authored the bill based on bill they wrote. In my opinion  the authors dont come out looking any better than your assessment of them in this case and the bill still ends up being a bad bill but the evidence and reason that guides my opinion remains focused where it should be on the bill itself.

.
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176 posted 05-23-2010 10:11 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

to enter any premises, guns blazing, and conduct a search based on nothing more than a suspicion?

Another comment ignoring the amendment to the original bill.
Grinch
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177 posted 05-23-2010 10:26 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I read the amendment Mike -  it doesnt fix the bill.

All it does is proves that it was badly written in the first place.
.
Denise
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178 posted 05-23-2010 12:07 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I heard on the news that the Arizona law is much less strict than the Federal Law, too.

Federal Law stipulates that ID can be requested anytime, anywhere, with no concurrent legal encounter for an infraction, or suspected infraction, of a law and with no reasonable suspicion of possible illegal status having to be proven by the officer.

[This message has been edited by Denise (05-23-2010 12:42 PM).]

Grinch
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179 posted 05-23-2010 01:27 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Quite correct Denise, law enforcement officers can demand to see the papers of any non-resident, at any time, without giving any reason. What they cant do however is demand to see the papers of American citizens unless they have a very good reason.
Bob K
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180 posted 05-23-2010 03:48 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     And the way you identify a non resident, less the point be lost, would be exactly how?  In a country with a population made up of people with multiple ethnicities and races, what does a non-resident look like.  Madam, you look suspiciously Canadian to me?  Does that make any sense to you?  Sir, you look oddly dark skinned to me, would you please show identification?

     Well, that confuses dark-skinned with foreign, now, doesn't it?  It may also confuse accented with foreign.  That may be an acceptable mistake in other countries, but as far as I understand the law here, it is not an acceptable mistake in the United States.

     Usually the law in this country is supposed presume  innocence.  Because a law was made back in the 40"s doesn't mean that we would necessarily find it enforceable today.  I would ask if some of the Blue laws and the race laws from that period of time are laws that you would think still valid and enforceable and which of those laws you may have been guilty of breaking yourself at some point or another.  Spat on any sidewalks recently?  Walked down the street with less than a specified amount of cash in your pocket?

     Have you enforced all the housing compacts that have been in force in all the neighborhoods that you've lived in?  Do you even know about all of them?

     Perhaps you might ask yourself why you'd pick up a set of laws designed to restrict the freedoms of folks with identifiable skin colors to get huffy about enforcing simply because they've been around since the 40's.  We're you the guy who was reasonably and rightfully upset about the roundup of the Japanese a year or two ago, John?  That was done by a Democratic administration, but it was just as disturbing.  
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181 posted 05-23-2010 05:18 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

officers can demand to see the papers of any non-resident,

Quite a statement there.
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182 posted 05-24-2010 06:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Arizona Ethnic Studies Exposed
Cliff Kincaid, May 24, 2010

One of Bill Ayers courses at the University of Illinois includes Pedagogy of the Oppressed as required reading. Author Paulo Freire, a Brazilian Marxist, declared:

This, then, is the great humanistic and historical task of the oppressed: to liberate themselves and their oppressors as well.

It turns out that the Freire book is required reading in Raza Studies or Mexican-American courses in the high schools in Tucson, Arizona, where students have been protesting Arizonas new immigration law. Other required books are Occupied America by Rodolfo Acua, a professor emeritus of Chicano studies at California State University in Northridge (CSUN), and Prison Notebooks by Antonio Gramsci, the Italian Communist.

Occupied America, the fifth edition, includes an image of Fidel Castro on the front cover, and Castro and Che Guevara on the back cover. It refers to white people as gringos and actually includes a quotation on page 323 from Jose Angel Gutierrez of the Mexican American Youth Organization (MAYO), who was angry over the cancellation of a government program. He declared:

We are fed up. We are going to move to do away with the injustice to the Chicano and if the gringo doesnt get out of our way, we will stampede over him.

The book goes on:

Gutierrez attacked the gringo establishment angrily at a press conference and called upon Chicanos to Kill the gringo, which meant to end white control over Mexicans.

Reviewing this material for the National Association of Scholars, Ashley Thorne commented that, Actually, kill the gringo meant kill the gringo. But admitting that makes Mexicans look radical, infuriated, revolutionary, Acua sidestepped that image and substituted it with one of browbeaten Latinos rising to overthrow injustice.
http://www.academia.org/arizona-ethnic-studies-exposed/

These are the things Arizona is trying to stop....good for them.
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183 posted 05-24-2010 09:14 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

threadbear
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184 posted 05-24-2010 10:02 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

hmmmmm
there are 16 million jobless people
and
there are 16 million illegal immigrants.
Bob K
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185 posted 05-25-2010 08:28 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Have you read any of the books or the literature that you're quoting from here, Mike?

     I have not.  I see that you are quick to mention the political affiliation and philosophies of the groups and authors, however.  Which points are you trying to make in doing so?  The point that you mention, that of helping liberate the oppressor as well as the oppressed hardly seems sinister to me.  No doubt the notion of being able to think more broadly should be interesting to you as well, since it doesn't obligate your agreement with new and different ways of considering problems.  Yet you speak of it as some sort of a threat.

     When, for example, I speak about the difficulty involved in the sort of viewpoint espoused by FAIR, including the Eugenics part of their thinking and the part of their thinking that holds that white, european thought is superior to other forms of thinking, there is the fact that the constitution holds that other people and other points of view have a right to equal protection under the law.  FAIR has a right, therefore, to espouse their point of view, even to espouse it firmly, but needs to find a way to preserve the rights of others if they wish to stay within the bounds of the constitution.

     If you're going to quote from the sources you have picked, then I'd like to ask you if these quotes are representitive of the viewpoints of the texts and of the people who you presume to quote?

quote:

This, then, is the great humanistic and historical task of the oppressed: to liberate themselves and their oppressors as well.

It turns out that the Freire book is required reading in Raza Studies or Mexican-American courses in the high schools in Tucson, Arizona, where students have been protesting Arizonas new immigration law. Other required books are Occupied America by Rodolfo Acua, a professor emeritus of Chicano studies at California State University in Northridge (CSUN), and Prison Notebooks by Antonio Gramsci, the Italian Communist.




     Is this supposed to be something bad, Mike?

     To become free and to free those who oppress you at the same time?  This is supposed to be evidence of being an evil communist and other terrible things?

     One of the things that I have to do every day when I was in gradeschool was to go through the Lord's Prayer with everybody else.  I did it by rote, like most everybody else, and I disliked it, being brought up Jewish and thus being forced to pray to a messiah that I didn't believe in or be humiliated in front of my classmates.  But I do seem to remember some stuff about forgiveness and being forgiven in there, and nobody in Canton, Ohio was doing a lot of talking about Liberation Theology at the time.  

     Buddhist theology has a lot of strong material on the subject.  There is a thing called a Boddhisatva Pledge that many religious Buddhists take that is a promise to wait until everybody else has gotten off the circle of incarnation first before they will get off.  Everybody else must achieve liberation first, they say, then me.  I suspect that will make for quite a traffic jam there at the end.  You think all those people who would almost literally not hurt a fly are going to be high on your line-up of terrible people, Mike?

     Just might be.  We have disagreed on who wears the white hats from time to time, but this seems a bit more extreme that usual.  

     So, what do you know about this course that you so disapprove of.  Got a reading list?  What do you disapprove of?

     And, above all, what does it have to do with the Arizona Legislature being race and color-blind?  It seems to me that you seem to be getting further away from the subject the longer we go on.  I know that you'll find a way to tie it back in, though, if I give you a chance, so why not give that a shot before that Legislature tries something even more fascinating?

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186 posted 05-25-2010 08:35 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Threadbear, you've come up with a wonderful Republican solution!  

     Everybody who's collecting unemployment must be an illegal alien, so we should pick a country and ship them all back.  That way, we wouldn't have to worry about disturbing any hard-working Americans, we could get rid of those free-loaders, and we could get loads and loads of people willing to work for really really low wages.  

     Also, we wouldn't have to worry about paying for entitlements at all, because anybody who tried to collect them would automatically classify themselves as an illegal alien.  Are you sure you're not running for office?  You'd get every Republican to vote for you, especially if you waited till after the election to have the bill kick into effect and have all the social security folks shipped overseas.  You're a genius!

     Heck!  You're the new Newt Gingrich!  Rock On!
Bob K
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187 posted 05-25-2010 08:38 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I really should mention that my posting to threadbear above was a piece of wit and  sarcasm, and that people shouldn't take the proposal literally, especially those of you on the right.  There really are serious logical problems with it and some people might actually find it morally offensive.

     No, I really really mean that.
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188 posted 05-25-2010 08:51 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Don't worry, Bob. We learned long ago not to take you literally....or seriously.
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189 posted 05-25-2010 08:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Is this supposed to be something bad, Mike?  To become free and to free those who oppress you at the same time?

When those who are labeled oppressing you built the school in which you are studying and supply the freedoms you are enjoying....yes.
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190 posted 05-25-2010 09:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

WASHINGTON – Under pressure to take action, President Barack Obama on Tuesday ordered 1,200 National Guard troops to boost security along the U.S.-Mexico border, pre-empting Republican efforts to force a congressional vote to send the troops.

Obama will also request $500 million for border protection and law enforcement activities, according to lawmakers and administration officials.


Thank you, Arizona.
threadbear
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191 posted 05-25-2010 09:29 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

as point of comparison, GW Bush committed 6000 National Guard compared to 1200 from Obama.
Obama obviously thinks this issue is 1/5th the importance that Bush did.
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192 posted 05-25-2010 09:33 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Jeff, I doubt Obama gives it any importance at all. The only reason he is sending any is that his back is up against a political wall and he doesn't have a lot of choice. Arizona, and the other states that are jumping on the bandwagon, have forced him to do, at least, something, even this token response.
threadbear
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193 posted 05-25-2010 09:50 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

it will never happen, but if they really want to put a crimp in illegal immigration, then simply raise the level of the offense from a misdemeanor, which it is today,
to a felony.
Nobody prosecutes misdemeanors, especially if there are politics involved them.
Bob K
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194 posted 05-26-2010 03:17 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     In reference to your post # 189, Mike, this is the country, where the freedoms come from the people and flow from there, and do not flow from the daddies in the government on down.  I know that a lot of this stuff is confusing, but really we do not owe them an enormous kiss and a thank you.  It's supposed to be more mutual than that.

     I notice that you missed the point of what I was saying.  Perhaps I'm not being clear enough.  That was that I don't think you understood what the point of that coursework of those readings was any more than I do and yet you're trying to maintain something terrible was said.

     Without being familiar with the texts, and without knowing first-hand what these guys are saying, perhaps you can tell me how you know this stuff.  It sounds like more of your mind-reading skills to me, assuming you know what somebody's saying by knowing what their name is or who appears on the cover of their book.  Do you want me to assume I know everything about you by knowing a few basics about you?  I would hope not!  Would you want me to assume that anybody knew all the important stuff about you simply by knowing stuff that people spread about you on the internet?  I would hope not there as well.  And yet you're trying to convince me that I should believe stuff that you know is incomplete and would not vouch for if pressed by saying that you yourself had researched it in detail and that the sources you are using are at least as objective as a source that both of us might agree was reliable and objective?

     Pfui!

     You act as though you don't know the difference between a reliable source and a biased source.

     For all practical purposes, a reliable source is a source that both of us agree has no ax to grind, and is interested in telling the truth, whether we happen to like the truth it tells or not.  Folks on the left and right should have a basic agreement on that.  The Christian Science Monitor doesn't always say things I want to hear and in fact frequently says things I'd rather not hear, but I'm convinced that their first loyalty is to telling the truth.  I may not like it, you may not like it, but they could care less abouit either of us; they care about the truth.  Tough on both of us.  The Economist is clearly a right wing magazine, but they are not interested in slanting things too much.  They have a clear slant to the right, but they don't let that get too much in the way of telling the truth as they see it.  I can live with what they say, even with the slant, because they pride themselves on their intelligence gathering abilities, which as better than those of most countries.  Their pride and their sense of craft keeps them honest.  I can live with their rightward slant because they are stubborn about the truth.

     There are magazines I like and which I depend on but which I don't believe you feel are sufficiently objective.  If I find a direct source for one of their facts, I may quote the direct source for the fact, but I won't quote the article.  I like some of the English papers you've quoted from time to time.  I'll use The Washington Post.

     This business of using attributions that presume knowledge and expertise you don't have and that depend on indirect smears simply don't work well for me.

     Where did you get them?
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195 posted 05-26-2010 09:52 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

"Occupied America, the fifth edition, includes an image of Fidel Castro on the front cover, and Castro and Che Guevara on the back cover. It refers to white people as �gringos� and actually includes a quotation on page 323 from Jose Angel Gutierrez of the Mexican American Youth Organization (MAYO), who was angry over the cancellation of a government program. He declared:

�We are fed up. We are going to move to do away with the injustice to the Chicano and if the �gringo� doesn�t get out of our way, we will stampede over him.�

The book goes on:

�Gutierrez attacked the gringo establishment angrily at a press conference and called upon Chicanos to �Kill the gringo,� which meant to end white control over Mexicans.�"

Too sad you don't have a problem with that being studied in high schools, Bob. Maybe that's why Che Guevara shirts are not uncommon. He was a fine fellow, wasn't he?
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196 posted 05-26-2010 09:56 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The Arizona citizens upset about this kind of material said that they initiated an investigation into the problem back in 2007 and found it difficult to get access to the books. One activist said the concern began when parents came to be aware of violence in the schools directed against white and black children. “This investigation was undertaken to find the roots of this hate,” she told me. Another person, in turn, “told me the books in their Mexican-American classes are kept under ‘lock and key’ and the kids can’t even take them home. She said she asked to see them but they were very secretive about them and she was prohibited.”

However, the citizen activists persisted, demanding access to the books under a state open records law. The courses, after all, are taxpayer-funded. Eventually, a list of books was produced, and a controversy ensued.

The footnotes for Pedagogy of the Oppressed tell us a lot about the nature of the book. Sources include Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, Mao, Herbert Marcuse, and Vladimir Lenin.

The American Educational Research Association (AERA), which Bill Ayers serves as a vice-president, includes a “Paulo Freire Special Interest Group” in his honor. AERA has more than 25,000 members, including “educators; administrators; directors of research; persons working with testing or evaluation in federal, state and local agencies; counselors; evaluators; graduate students; and behavioral scientists.”

More open than even Bill Ayers about the mission, Paula Allman wrote Critical Education Against Global Capitalism, incorporating the ideas of Marx, Freire and Antonio Gramsci, the Italian communist who emphasized the subversion of Western cultural institutions such as the educational system.  Allman is in the School of Continuing Education at the University of Nottingham, England. The foreword to her book is by UCLA Professor Peter McLaren, one of those on Bill Ayers’ own “blog roll” of favorite websites, and an open advocate of “Revolution as education,” the subtitle of one of his books.  Allman, he wrote, was “part of a bold new group of Marxist educationalists in Britain…”

Here, McLaren is leading the charge, as Ayers tags along and gets most of the “glory.”

Bill Ayers explains to his students that Freire’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed is “a complicated and layered book that will likely take you some time and sustained commitment.”  This is a book written by a Marxist for the purpose of sparking communist revolution. As the title indicates, this is a Marxist view of oppressors and the oppressed. Hence, students reading this book are supposed to come to an understanding of how various groups in society are being “oppressed.” In fact, students themselves may come to believe, under careful guidance, that they, too, are members of the “oppressed” class. Didn’t such a realization lead to the “student movement” of the 1960s, of which Ayers and his wife Bernardine Dohrn, were prominent members?
http://www.academia.org/arizona-ethnic-studies-exposed/
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197 posted 05-26-2010 10:03 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

this is the country, where the freedoms come from the people and flow from there

That's a nice platitude, Bob, but that's about all. The exercise of our freedoms and the restrictions on our freedoms come from the government. Yes, you can argue that it's the people who send their representatives to Washington but, as we have clearly seen throughout the Obama administration, that doesn't really matter when the representatives don't represent the will of the people who sent them there. Yes, they can be voted out next time but, while they are there, damage can be done. Your "freedoms" are at the mercy of the people who will decide, and have the power to declare, what those freedoms are.
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198 posted 05-26-2010 10:11 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

TOM HORNE, ARIZONA SCHOOLS SUPERINTENDENT:  No. In the summer of 1963, when I just graduated from high school, I went on the march on Washington, in which Martin Luther King gave his famous speech in which he said we should be judged by the quality of our character, rather than the color of our skin. And that has been among my deepest beliefs my entire life. And so this has made me opposed to dividing students by race.

In the Tucson school district -- this was what led me to introduce this legislation -- they divide the kids up. They've got Raza studies for the Latino kids. Raza means "the race" in Spanish. African-American studies for the African-American kids, Indian studies for the native American kids and Asian studies for the Asian kids. And they're dividing them up just like the old South.

And I believe that what's important about us is what we know, what we can do, what's our character as individuals, not what race we happen to have been born into. And the function of the public schools is to bring in kids from different backgrounds and teach them to treat each other as individuals. And the Tucson district is doing the opposite. They're teaching them to emphasize ethnic solidarity, what I call ethnic chauvinism. And I think that's exactly is the wrong thing to do in the public schools, and that's why I introduced this legislation to give myself the authority to put a stop to it.

One of the things that happened was that when Delores Juerta said that, there was a lot of controversy and people told me I should stop schools from having controversial speakers. And I said No, kids learn from controversial speakers, but they need to hear both sides. So I brought down Margaret Garcia Dugan (ph), who's my deputy and who's running for my position now, as I'm running for attorney general. And I brought her down to give a speech because she grew up in an immigrant family and she's also a Republican. And she said, I'm a proud Latina and a proud Republican, and I don't hate myself. And she gave them a very high- quality speech about how they should be skeptical, they should avoid stereotypes.

In the middle of her speech, a group of students that are in the Raza studies program got up, put their fists in the air, turned their back to her. The principal asked them to sit down and listen, and they walked out on their own principal.

These kids I believe did not learn this rude behavior from home. They were taught at home to be polite. They learned this rude behavior from the Raza studies teachers. And it's dysfunctional for them because as adults, they need to learn to deal with disagreement in a civil way. If they think the way to deal with disagreement is by being rude or getting in people's face, they're going to be unsuccessful adults.

So I think this is mostly dysfunctional for the students that are in this Raza studies program being subject to a revolutionary curriculum, a curriculum that tells them that we took Arizona and other states from Mexico and it should go back to them, that tells them that the enemy is capitalism, that they're oppressed and they should be resentful.

These kids' parents and grandparents came to this country, most of them legally, because this is the land of opportunity, and they trust their children to our schools. And we need to teach these children that this is the land of opportunity, and if they work hard, they can achieve anything, and not teach them that they're oppressed.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,592863,00.html
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199 posted 05-26-2010 12:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

"When President Obama discussed the new Arizona immigration law with Mexican President Felipe Calderon at the White House Wednesday, he was doing something he has never done with the governor of Arizona. Although Obama has repeatedly criticized the law, he has not once talked about it with Gov. Jan Brewer, nor is any such discussion in the works. ... The bottom line is that Obama, the Justice Department, and the entire executive branch are on Mexico's side in this dispute. On the other hand, the majority of the American people are with Arizona." --columnist Byron York

Ain't that the truth? Obama has addressed the nation. the Mexican president, the American people, the justice department....and has not once spoken to the governor of Arkansas. She has left multiple messages for him, Holder and homeland security. None have been answered, according to her. Why do you think that is????
 
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