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Passions in Poetry

Still think the Republican led AZ legislature isn't racist?

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Grinch
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125 posted 05-15-2010 04:59 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
It cuts off all benefits to illegal aliens. It requires employers to report illegals. You don't believe there is any ethnicity there?


No Mike I don’t, and you don’t have to go very far to see why.

“When a person”

The Oklahoma bill treats all people equally regardless of race, colour or ethnicity, if you are charged with a felony in Oklahoma, whether you are a legal or illegal citizen, black, white green or polka dot the law stipulates that your status will be checked.

I think that’s a fair and reasonable law that doesn’t discriminate based on ethnicity.

.
Bob K
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126 posted 05-15-2010 05:02 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Do you believe there's an discrimination made on the grounds of ethnicity in either law, Mike?

     If you do believe there is, near as I can tell you also believe that the law in question is in violation of the equal protections clause of the constitution, and are therefore defending an unconstitutional law.

     How do you deal with that?
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127 posted 05-15-2010 05:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The Oklahoma bill treats all people equally regardless of race, colour or ethnicity

and you are saying that the Arizona bill doesn't?


No, Bob, I don't.
Grinch
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128 posted 05-15-2010 05:49 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

I’m saying that the Arizona law allows law abiding citizens to be discriminated against Mike, in a way that is quite probably unconstitutional. In contrast the Oklahoma law respects the rights of law abiding citizens and is therefore unlikely to be deemed unconstitutional.

The two laws attempt to resolve the same issue Mike, an issue that almost everyone recognises needs addressing. The Arizona version is badly written and ill-conceived – that’s borne out by the fact that they had to amend it before the ink was barely dry. The Oklahoma version on the other hand has clearly had some thought put into it, the result is a law that, I believe, even law-abiding Mexican-Americans would have a hard time disagreeing with.

.
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129 posted 05-16-2010 01:40 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I�m saying that the Arizona law allows law abiding citizens to be discriminated against Mike, in a way that is quite probably unconstitutional.

You DO speak like Obama..."allows to be discriminated against"..."quite probably unconstitutional".

You are willing to condemn the acts that haven't even happened based on "probably" and "might".

The sad fact is that your, and Obama's, thoughts have become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Armed with these thoughts, rest assured that people stopped will use them to scream racism.
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130 posted 05-16-2010 02:53 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Now that's plain silly, Mike.

     The law was so badly written that it needed revisions within days after the first draft was signed.  And those were simply to plug the largest and most obviously unconstitutional places in the bill.  The places that it was really clear right off the bat that the law was going to get shut down, Mike.

     You want to blame the carelessness with which it was drafted on the Democrats and the President?

     How did you get there?

     That's like the old Maine jokes where Bert says to Ernie, 'You can't Get there from here."  Do you think that simply saying these things makes them true?

     Am I to gather from your silence on the matter that you've read the stuff on FAIR?

     Or that you haven't?

     These are not good people.
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131 posted 05-16-2010 08:11 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with my reply to grinch.
Grinch
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132 posted 05-16-2010 10:52 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
You are willing to condemn the acts that haven't even happened based on "probably" and "might".


But that’s the point Mike, laws that allow criticisms based on “probably” and “possibly” are bad laws almost guaranteeing that the possible or probable ands up being  the actual. Laws need to be written very carefully and used only when absolutely necessary to avoid misinterpretation which can lead to unintentional effects – in this case discrimination.

So should I be criticising the possible and probable before it becomes actual? Absolutely, you seem to believe that pretending that bad laws are good is sufficient to avoid the leviathan size loopholes they contain from being used at some point in the future, I’m not so optimistic. I think it’s a good idea to point out the flaws before they become disasters, I’m the guy on the oil rig pointing out that the automatic cut off valve doesn’t work, you’re the bloke telling everyone that nobody would have known any different if I’d kept my bigmouth shut.

Mike 1 Messenger 0

Nice shot Mike.


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133 posted 05-16-2010 11:31 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

you seem to believe that pretending that bad laws are good

and you are the one to call it bad? Why not play it safe like before.....might be bad, could be bad, a chance that it's bad, etc.? If you want to go out on a limb and call it bad, you will have to prove that. Not even Obama is willing to make that leap.
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134 posted 05-16-2010 12:17 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Mike,

It’s a bad law because it’s open to too much interpretation.

The Oklahoma law is good because it isn’t.
Bob K
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135 posted 05-16-2010 05:20 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Certainly I made a connected point, Mike.

quote:

You are willing to condemn the acts that haven't even happened based on "probably" and "might".

The sad fact is that your, and Obama's, thoughts have become a self-fulfilling prophesy.



     You have mis-used the term self-fulfilling prophesy.  You are trying to use the phrase to describe design flaws and problems with structure as though the the flaws suddenly been created by the very comments that pointed them out.  Folks were upset about these laws before The President opened his mouth, and remainedupset while they were being designed, especially the Arizona hispanics.  

      After passage, the laws had to be amended within a week because the flaws were too glaring to withstand any scrutiny at all.  If the law were flawless, no adjustments would have been necessary; the law would have been bulletproof, wouldn't it?

     You're simply trying to shift blame for any failure it has onto the shoulders of the people you most hate instead of the racists you're trying to defend here, the folks at FAIR.

     The Folks at FAIR are trying to smear the Southern Poverty Law Center these days, the people who try to keep an eye on the Klan Activities and White Supremacy Movements.  
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136 posted 05-16-2010 08:01 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Folks were upset about these laws before The President opened his mouth

Show me.

Yes, there were adjustments, Bob...but the adjustments WERE made.
Bob K
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137 posted 05-17-2010 03:14 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




You might try some of these, then, Mike.  The second one especially shows concern with these matters well before the law was passed and before the President said anything.

http://laprensa-sandiego.org/editorial-and-commentary/commentary/sb-1070-a-little-bit-of-history-repeating/
http://www.mccainsfreeride.com/factcheck/201004200001
Balladeer
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138 posted 05-17-2010 07:11 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thank you, Bob. Yes, one was 3 days before and one was one  day before Obama's comments. As far as the second one, it was written after the bill had been passed.

The titles of some of the commentaries are interesting..

It Could Soon Be Illegal To Be In Arizona Without The Proper Paperwork

Bill Makes it a Crime to be an Illegal Alien in Arizona


A crime to be illegal??? Whodathunkit???
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139 posted 05-17-2010 10:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Obama has said he opposes Arizona's new law and Calder�n is expected to raise the issue in his speech to Congress, where Democrats are proposing legislation that would tighten border security and also offer a path to citizenship for the millions of illegal immigrants already in the United States.

In a recent interview with Reuters news service, Calder�n said the Arizona law "contains elements that are frankly discriminatory, terribly backward."


The Mexican president is calling the law discriminatory??? Has anyone seen Mexico's immigration laws?


IS
HE
KIDDING???
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140 posted 05-17-2010 10:53 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

16 illegals sue Arizona rancher
Claim violation of rights as they crossed his land

An Arizona man who has waged a 10-year campaign to stop a flood of illegal immigrants from crossing his property is being sued by 16 Mexican nationals who accuse him of conspiring to violate their civil rights when he stopped them at gunpoint on his ranch on the U.S.-Mexico border.

Roger Barnett, 64, began rounding up illegal immigrants in 1998 and turning them over to the U.S. Border Patrol, he said, after they destroyed his property, killed his calves and broke into his home.

Trial continues Monday in the federal lawsuit, which seeks $32 million in actual and punitive damages for civil rights violations, the infliction of emotional distress and other crimes. Also named are Mr. Barnett's wife, Barbara, his brother, Donald, and Larry Dever, sheriff in Cochise County, Ariz., where the Barnetts live. The civil trial is expected to continue until Friday.

Attorneys for the immigrants - five women and 11 men who were trying to cross illegally into the United States - have accused Mr. Barnett of holding the group captive at gunpoint, threatening to turn his dog loose on them and saying he would shoot anyone who tried to escape.

The immigrants are represented at trial by the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund (MALDEF), which also charged that Sheriff Dever did nothing to prevent Mr. Barnett from holding their clients at "gunpoint, yelling obscenities at them and kicking one of the women."



The inmates are running the asylum...
Bob K
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141 posted 05-18-2010 04:22 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


    Thank you, then, in reference to # 138.   QED.
Bob K
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142 posted 05-18-2010 04:29 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     No, I haven't seen Mexican Immigration Laws.  You have any good translations into English?
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143 posted 05-18-2010 07:55 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The  government will bar foreigners if they upset “the equilibrium of the national demographics.ť

If outsiders do not enhance the country's economic or national interestsť or are not found to be physically or mentally healthy,ť they are not welcome. Neither are those who show contempt against national sovereignty or security.ť They must not be economic burdens on society and must have clean criminal histories. Those seeking to obtain  citizenship must show a birth certificate, provide a bank statement proving economic independence, pass an exam and prove they can provide their own health care.

Illegal entry into the country is equivalent to a felony punishable by two years imprisonment. Document fraud is subject to fine and imprisonment; so is alien marriage fraud. Evading deportation is a serious crime; illegal re-entry after deportation is punishable by ten years imprisonment. Foreigners may be kicked out of the country without due process.

Law enforcement officials at all levels  by national mandate  must cooperate to enforce immigration laws, including illegal alien arrests and deportations. The  military is also required to assist in immigration enforcement operations. Native-borns are empowered to make citizens arrests of illegal aliens and turn them in to authorities.

- A National Population Registry tracks and verifies the identity of every member of the population, who must carry a citizens identity card. Visitors who do not possess proper documents and identification are subject to arrest as illegal aliens.

All of these provisions are enshrined in Mexico's Ley General de PoblaciĂłn (General Law of the Population)
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144 posted 05-18-2010 08:14 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Janet Napolitano was asked on tv by congress if she has read the Arizona bill. She said no but she was familiar with it.

So we have Holder protesting against it who hasn't read it, Napolitano protesting against it who hasn't read it....tell me, libs, that if these were democrats you wouldn't be setting them on fire. Well after a week of it's introduction, with the president condemning it, with states protesting against it, with planned embargos and demonstrations, with one of the most controversial immigration bills in recent memory, neither of these two representatives of the highest officials of the Obama administration has even read the 16 page document. Does this make ANY sense at all to you or are you so wrapped up in partisanship that you can't see how ludicrous that is?
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145 posted 05-18-2010 08:33 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Posner apologizes to China

This week's talks came as the countries try to repair ties after a rough period. President Barack Obama infuriated China by recently announcing a $6.4 billion arms sale to Taiwan, the self-ruled island claimed by Beijing as its own, and by meeting with the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan Buddhist leader China calls a separatist.

Posner said in addition to talks on freedom of religion and expression, labor rights and rule of law, officials also discussed Chinese complaints about problems with U.S. human rights, which have included crime, poverty, homelessness and racial discrimination.

He said U.S. officials did not whitewash the American record and in fact raised on its own a new immigration law in Arizona that requires police to ask about a person's immigration status if there is suspicion the person is in the country illegally.
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20100515/D9FMU8P81.html

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -- - - -- - -- - -- -- -


We are apologizing to a nation that limits families to one child and forcibly aborts others, a nation that persecutes Christians and other religious believers, a nation that has systematically oppressed another (Tibet) and crushed opposition, a nation where the word “democracy” is blocked from the internet, a nation where prisoners are routinely tortured, a nation which executes more “criminals” than the rest of the world combined and where “tax fraud” is a capital crime — we are apologizing to them for our human rights record, including the pretended horrific abuse of asking people who can’t speak English if they are in the U.S. legally. http://nicedeb.wordpress.com/2010/05/16/were-apologizing-to-china-now-for-az-immi gration-law/

that requires police to ask about a person's immigration status if there is suspicion the person is in the country illegally. Posner either deliberately lied or he joins the growing list of those on Obama's team who haven't read it, either.
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146 posted 05-18-2010 09:34 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

San Diego Faces Own Medicine as Arizona Residents Cancel Travel Following Boycott of State


Arizona tourists are biting back against San Diego for its city council's decision to boycott the Grand Canyon State over its immigration law signed by Gov. Jan Brewer last month.

Would-be tourists have notified the San Diego Convention and Visitors Bureau and some hotels that they are canceling their scheduled travel to the coastal vacation destination, according to the San Diego Union-Tribune.

According to the newspaper, the convention bureau has received about 25-30 emails from Arizona residents, with some saying they are canceling their reservations and taking their money elsewhere.

That has tourism officials urging Arizonans to consider the resolutions as merely symbolic and local politics at work.

"We're in a very tough environment already because of everything else going on, and we don't need another negative impact to our industry," ConVis President Joe Terzi told the Union-Tribune. "This affects all the hardworking men and women who count on tourism for their livelihoods, so we’re saying, don't do something that hurts their livelihoods."

"I've been approached by a number of hotels who are very concerned because they’ve received cancelations from Arizona guests," Namara Mercer, executive director of the county Hotel-Motel Association, told the newspaper.

Roughly 2 million Arizonans visit San Diego each year but the recession has taken a toll on the hotel industry that was hoping for a comeback this year. Hotels are offering deep discounts to fill up their undersold rooms while the tourism board spends $7 million this spring and summer season to promote travel to the area.

Meanwhile, in San Diego, school board President Shelia Jackson said she is sorry people don’t want to come to her city, but she still supports her vote to boycott Arizona.

“It’s sad that people would cancel their plans to come here in reaction to that, but I still think we did the right thing,” Jackson told the Union-Tribune. “Certainly, we know how important tourism is to San Diego, and it wasn’t my intent to impact the tourism trade.”


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/17/san-diego-faces-medicine-arizona-residents-cancel-travel-following-boycott/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:%20fo xnews/latest%20%28Text%20-%20Latest%20Headlines%29

Oh, really? Wasn't your intention to impact YOUR tourist trade, you mean. You just expected Arizona to take it and be humbled....not expecting them to actually retaliate. Too bad.

California boycotting Arizona? I haven't seen in the papers anywhere where they are boycoting China or other countries where    human rights violations are deplorable. Why don't they stop doing any business with CHina then? Stop using products made in China? No, of course that ain't gonna happen, is it? Their actions are pathetic....and now San Diego complains that the tactics they used on Arizona are being used on them........tough muffins.
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147 posted 05-18-2010 07:36 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I recommend Amnesty International to your attention, Mike, given your concern for Human Rights.  The American branch is one you might wish to avoid.  It's sort of a rogue branch.  The international organization wants everybody to avoid taking positions on issues inside their own countries since people of good will may indeed disagree on internal policies, but have basic agreement on international issues such as the ones you bring up about China and Mexico.

     These are issues where I find myself in agreement with the outrage you've expressed.  I have no reason to think you've misrepresented the Mexican position on their internal immigration policy.  Nor do I believe you've misrepresented the Chinese situation all that badly.  It might be interesting for you to have a look at the Amnesty International Human Rights reports on China and the United States side by side and see what the most recent ones have to say.   We look pretty good by comparison, but I'd hardly say we shine.

     Are you trying to compare us to China and Mexico, though, Mike?  I've always wanted to compare us to the goals set out in the constitution, to compare upward and not downward.  Comparing upward is what, in my experience, people do when they want to do better, comparing downward is what they do when they want to comfort themselves for their failures.   At least we're not treating people as badly as they do in Mexico.  At least we're not doing the things they do to people in China.  What a relief!

     There's a bit of a difference between that and "We're not living up to the things the Constitution demands of us as Americans."  "We're not guarding Equal Protection under the Law;" or "We're not being scrupulous about 'probable Cause;'" and "we're trying to find a way around the constitution so that we can get rid of these folks, who bother us for all these terrific real or imaginary or some combination of the two reasons."

  
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148 posted 05-18-2010 08:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Am I trying to compare us to China, Bob? No, I'm saying it is insane to apologize to a Chinese dictator for our own internal actions, especially when they are not factual.

Am I comparing us to Mexico? No, I'm saying it's insane to allow the Mexican president our air time to criticize our immigration policies when his are a complete joke.

Im curious as to what you think about neither our US Attorney General or our head of Homeland Security not even taking time to read the small bill in over a week, while condemning it at the same time.
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149 posted 05-19-2010 02:43 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



      I wish they would have.  It's not that big a bill, and from my reading of it I thought they were saying the right things.  Not having read the bill makes them look foolish, when, to my eye, the content of the bill supports their stands.  It really does look as though the bill will be pushed by public pressure of the publically financed law-suits built into the bill for anybody who feels that the bill isn't being enforced vigorously enough — and here one might also read the adjective "vigorously," I believe, equally well as "savagely" — toward less clearly fact-focused applications.  The xenophobes are being given encouragement.  The public pays for their law-suits and will pay them damages in they win.

     Where I came from that's called "incentive," and it's built into the law not for even-handed enforcement, but for what looks like over-zealous application.

     It amounts to open season on anybody with an hispanic look to them, defined by whatever xenophobe is doing the watching.  The police will be at the mercy of this sort of chicken puckey as much as those who are apt to get caught up without strict application of due process and equal protection clauses in the constitution.  This is not good as far as I'm concerned.

    
 
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