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Passions in Poetry

Still think the Republican led AZ legislature isn't racist?

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rwood
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75 posted 05-07-2010 07:32 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Hey Reb,

Things are much different in these parts than they were in the past. I wouldn't be able to say that if I didn't know how the past has been weeded-down for greener pastures.

Forget politics.

When I was little my daddy was the darkest-skinned person I knew in the entire area. I'd not laid eyes on another person of color in real life, other than Charley Pride who was on the Grand Ole Opry TV show.

We are of Melungeon descent, with a hardy helping of Scots-Irish & German.

I was labeled "the milk man's daughter," because I was as white as milk and didn't qualify as belonging to my daddy, according to the community and my peers. People even tried to make me agree with their assessment so I could be invited to their parties and sleepovers.

They actually wanted me to denounce my daddy as being my real father. I was 6 years old.  

I didn't care what kind of disgusting name they called Daddy, they were perfectly right that I loved him and I would not be backed into a white/black/blue/red/olive/yellow corner about it.

His answer? He joined the Navy and took our family away from here.

Time did change things. Every time we came back to Tennessee, Daddy's skin got lighter and lighter in the eyes of the bigots & racists--mostly from cataracts. Some died hard from being eat-up with their own demons to a very feeble end during the last 39 years. And others had their narrow judgment complicated by the fact that a prism of newcomers filtered-in with a whole new spectrum of color.

Now, we've got every kind of walk of life here in the foothills of the Smokies. And when I introduce Daddy, nobody whispers or pulls me to the side to ask me anymore, "Is he your real daddy?"

Stupid people, stupid times, and there's still work to do. But I no longer worry about the milk man.


Balladeer
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76 posted 05-07-2010 07:45 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

An amazing post, Regina.

Some died hard from being eat-up with their own demons to a very feeble end during the last 39 years.

That's an incredible line and, moreso, because of it's truthfulness. What goes around...
Denise
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77 posted 05-08-2010 11:45 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. I guess what I heard on tv was in relation to generic ID and not picture ID.

On another note, why doesn't every state require picture ID for voting? That would surely cut down on voter fraud.

In what instances other than driving can the police request your ID, Bob, only if they take you into the station for questioning or only after you call an attorney, or never? How do they ascertain that the name you are giving them is your correct legal name?  I've never considered a request for your ID as unreasonable search and seizure.

Another thing that puzzles me....why have it be a federal law that resident aliens must carry their green cards at all times if no one is allowed to request to see it, other than perhaps during a traffic stop? Or are only immigration officials allowed to request it?
Denise
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78 posted 05-08-2010 12:29 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

What about this idea for solving the illegal immigration problem?
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=151281
Grinch
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79 posted 05-08-2010 01:26 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:

1  Every last immigrant must register with the government and commit to become legal. If not, it's back to the country from which he came.
2 A temporary work visa must be obtained, with a definite time limit, and holders' whereabouts routinely monitored.
3 Taxes must be assessed on moneys received, in compliance with the established guidelines and deductions all other citizens follow. In most cases, taxes will be little, and with deductions almost nothing, just like other low-income Americans.
4 Fines or penalties will be assessed; but, as with low-earning Americans and college students, these can be paid over time, out of earnings, perhaps on a low percentage of income basis. But breaking the law must incur penalty!
5 The government will have to set up the processes by which the naturalization can be accomplished in two or three years maximum. American history and the English language and all our basic laws must be part of the process, as with all previous naturalized immigrants. Failure to comply will necessitate expulsion; but compliance will be rewarded.
6 Sorry, no benefits except emergency medical care will be afforded non-citizens, especially those here illegally. But the benefits will be available upon compliance and naturalization. Just breaking in and taking benefits must not be allowed any more.
7 Automatic citizenship to children born here to illegal parents must end. If Arnold Schwarzenegger can't run for president because he wasn't born here, why should children born here illegally have more rights than the governor of California? In a democracy, personal rights and obedience to the law are inseparable.
8 Ergo Ö Employers who knowingly or even negligently hire and employ illegals must be punished severely for breaking the laws and bringing much of this dilemma on our country to begin with. They should be assessed the total amounts they've paid illegals, plus significant fines and other penalties. And then, they must pay decent wages low-income Americans, born here or not, may be attracted to. If Bernie Ebbers, Ken Lay and Bernie Madoff can be held accountable, every last employer should be too.

I think this is a good starting point and one almost every illegal would go for, Iíve got some reservations about number 6 Ė asking immigrants to contribute to benefits while not being eligible to claim them doesnít sound reasonable. The fines and penalties bit is a little fuzzy too, what fines and penalties? Is the suggestion that a fine should be imposed for being here illegally Ė a little like an entrance fee?
Denise
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80 posted 05-08-2010 02:11 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
But the benefits will be available upon compliance and naturalization.


Maybe just withhold benefits other than emergency medical care until the initial compliance with registering with the government and getting a job on the books and having taxes withheld?

I don't know what a fine/penalty would be or how much, but yes, something for being here illegally in the first place, and/or for not paying taxes and contributing to the society whose benefits you have utilized. It would have to be something that isn't prohibitive to compliance, of course, or there won't be many willing to come into compliance.
Grinch
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81 posted 05-08-2010 02:26 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Supposing the illegal hasnít been getting any benefits, what happens if he just arrived yesterday, or has been here for years and has been paying taxes using false documentation Ė does he get a waiver on the fine?

Presumably this only applies to illegals in the country at a given point, otherwise, at some point in the future, youíll have half of South America rolling up to your doorstep. So once all the current illegals are legal what happens going forward?

Isnít the problem simply going to start all over again with a fresh wave of illegals, do you just repeat the process every 5 or 10 years?

.
Denise
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82 posted 05-08-2010 02:44 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't think may people will come forward to claim that they having been paying taxes under fraudulent documentation. That would open them up to prosecution, I would think. So I don't see a waiver given under those circumstances. And I don't see how an undocumented person could prove length of time being in the country due to the nature of being undocumented. But if there is a way to prove it, I guess some sort of sliding scale system would be fair.

No, going forward the government must get serious about sealing the borders so people can't keep pouring across the borders.
Grinch
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83 posted 05-08-2010 03:11 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


In an ideal world Denise sealing the border might be possible but the reality is thereís always going to be illegal immigrants that circumvent the system, if you donít build in a process to deal with them youíll be back to square one within a few years.

Maybe the answer is a national ID card issued to every citizen.
Denise
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84 posted 05-08-2010 03:22 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

How would that solve anything, really, when a request for ID is considered verbotten?

Grinch
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85 posted 05-08-2010 03:48 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I think that you're missing the point Denise, people arenít up in arms because theyíll have to show ID, people are up in arms because only they have to show ID. It discriminates against a legal section of society if, based on their ethnicity, they are more likely to be suspected of being an illegal.

A national ID eliminates that. Every citizen, whatever their ethnicity, would be required to present the card whenever requested, at the bank, school, hospital etc. etc. No card Ė no service, and if youíre stopped by law enforcement officers for any reason whatsoever and donít have your ID youíre arrested and fined, if you still canít produce it youíre deported or imprisoned.

Laws or rules only work if they apply to everyone equally.

.
Balladeer
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86 posted 05-08-2010 04:51 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

people arenít up in arms because theyíll have to show ID, people are up in arms because only they have to show ID.

If you believe the law will be conducted the way it is written, that is incorrect. Since police will be responding to calls not based on checking citizen status, then anyone questioned in such incidents will be required to show id.
Denise
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87 posted 05-08-2010 05:28 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

ID already exists Grinch. I don't see the need to create yet another. Show what you already have, that's all.

Here's a question I asked earlier to Bob. Can you give me some clarification on this Michael?

In what instances other than driving can the police request your ID, Bob, only if they take you into the station for questioning or only after you call an attorney, or never? How do they ascertain that the name you are giving them is your correct legal name?  I've never considered a request for your ID as unreasonable search and seizure.
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88 posted 05-08-2010 05:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

There are a number of things, Denise, almost anything that would warrant arrest or being a suspect in such an event, be it robbery, burglary, assault, arson, etc. Hint: Tall grass is not an arrestable event. Neither is a barking dog complaint, unless you are so incensed by the officer asking you to quiet the dog that you punch him...THEN it becomes arrestable.
Denise
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89 posted 05-08-2010 06:07 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

That's in line with what I had always thought, Michael. Thanks.
Grinch
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90 posted 05-08-2010 08:15 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
In what instances other than driving can the police request your ID


They can request your name any time they like Denise, whether you are required to give it is dependent on individual state law and the circumstances. I donít know of any state though where you have to show documentary evidence, other than the proposal in AZ.

Most states hold that there are three basic interactions between law enforcement officers and the public:

Consensual, where an officer has a casual conversation with someone, even someone that they may suspect has been involved in a criminal activity. During this type of interaction, you are not obliged to answer any questions. You can test this by asking if you are free to leave.

Detention, this is where an officer has reasonable suspicion backed by specific facts that the person has committed a criminal offense, itís normally called a Terry stop. At this point most states require that the person detained gives their name.

Arrest, if the officer believes he has probable cause he will make an arrest, in most cases, though not all, the officer will also read you your Miranda rights. Again in most states you are obliged to give your name when asked.

Even in states where no specific law regarding supplying your name exists giving a false name is generally an offense.

.
Bob K
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91 posted 05-09-2010 03:52 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Here's a quick and dirty Yahoo answer, Denise.  You'll find all sorts of more detailed answers if you choose to look further.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100425155907AAaHD3j
Balladeer
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92 posted 05-09-2010 08:57 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOLOL! Bt all means, Denise, when you want answers, go to a blog where people give opinions! It's interesting that the first answer is the only one that supports you, Bob, while the rest of them don't. The best one is the poster who uses Obama's picture as his avatar and says, "He`ll cuff you and drag you by the ears to the station ......... lock you up , and let you sit there till you decide to co-operate !!"

Perhaps that's the one you wanted to point out, Bob?  
Bob K
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93 posted 05-10-2010 07:30 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     So sorry, Mike, but I think I'll stick by my answer.  In my own poor defense, you might notice that I said that it was a quick and dirty answer, and that I suggested that Denise might do her own further research.  I think the answer was pretty good.  

     She might also try posting # 90, above, in this thread, though it seems to differ from the sort of answer that you appear to wish for.

     Should she wish to try researching the issue of whether or not one is required to carry identification or whether on not one is obligated to identify one's self to the police  when stopped at road blocks or in any number of other circumstances, I think she would do best to do her own search on the matter,

     There is a rich right wing literature on the subject that is very much on the side of not being obligated to aid the police in these circumstances.  If I start suggesting places for her to do that research, it would only stiffle her curiosity and let her think that it was a left wing issue when it is very much an issue that crosses political lines and cuts widely to both the right and the left, and not only into the far reaches of either side.

     I start making suggestions, I shut off Denise's curiosity and give her the wrong idea about the issue.

     Better to let Denise decide if she wants to follow up on it on her own and to do her own google searches on limits of police powers and rights to demand identification and stuff like that.

     The whole subject gets very convoluted and interesting, anyway, and she'll have to make up her own mind without me steering things.  Ha!

     That's what the left wing guy says.  Let the Right wing woman do her own research on the subject and make up her own mind.

  
Ringo
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94 posted 05-10-2010 11:55 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

quote:
But, the question is -- why are racists attracted to both?

This is twice you have made this statement, and both times it caused me to smile... because of its moronic sentiments (it, not you).

This is implying that the 9/12 organizations and the Republican party (as a whole) have the lock-step and are driving the boat for racism...
Well, let's look at the Democratic (or Liberal for those of non demo status):

Louis Farakahn ran for Pres. Obama, and has made some of the most racist statements that can be uttered.
Ditto Rev. Wright

The NUNCF is more than willing to help any poor old black fo'k that has an issue getting into college, yet cannot be bothered to help the white kid (or hispanic, or asian, or etc) living in squalor right next to him.
Actually, while we are on that subject, the left wing of the spectrum is absolutely FINE with this organization, yet allow me to get a buttload of money and start a scholarship find for white kids who are living in abject povery with no way out... then, whose head is rotating on a spit at a White House BBQ?
Is that not racist, allowing one race to have special benefits not available to others? Isn't that what Rev. King and others fought for so valiantly in the 60's? For ALL people of ALL races to be allowed the same opportunity, without breaking into racial divides?

Hollywood made a movie "White Men Can't Jump"... would it have received the same reception if it were entitled "White Men Got Game"?

Eddie Murphy (very funnily) portrayed a white Jwish guy with all of the stereotypes, while in white make-up (ditto the Wayans Brothers in White Girls)... Now, put... oh, I don't know... pick a star... how about... uhm... Say, Ted Danson in black face doing a skit that his black girlfriend helped him write, and that his black girlfriend was in tears laughing so hard as he did it, and see what happens.

I submit to you, Sir, that EVERY political belief has its racists on board.

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "WHAT A RIDE

Bob K
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95 posted 05-11-2010 03:11 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:

I submit to you, Sir, that EVERY political belief has its racists on board.



     We've disagreed often, but not here ó unless you'd say that the belief that racism needs to be exposed and dealt with can be spoken of as political.  It might be possible to be racist about that one, but pretty difficult.

     Yet, I don't think that L.R. was saying that Republicans have a lock on the biz.  My understanding is that he was saying that an awful lot of them are attracted to the extreme right.  In this, I'd have to agree.

     I won't say that you can't find some racists on the left, and I find your example of Louis Farakand to be reasonably close to what I consider to be the mark.  But if you've read Malcolm X, you'll have some understanding that folks on that side of things don't have to be or stay racists, and some folks, like Malcolm X at the end of his life came quite a way away from that position.

     You know, the problem isn't so much with what you think in the country as it is with what you actually do, and there again L.R. seems to have a point worthy of attention.
You may feel sick and tired of claims by non-white folks for treatment of equality, and a lot of folks makes statements close to that, suggesting that while the White folks may once have oppressed black folks or other minority folks, that doesn't mean that minorities have any rights beyond what white folks now.

     But the fact remains that the Left has not attempted to throw entire classes of voters off the voter rolls based on Racial profiles.  And the Right actually has done so.  It is the fact that 30,000 black voters were purged from the ranks of Florida voters that may well have cost the Democrats the Presidential Election in 2000.  The Republicans did much the same during the 2004 election cycle in Ohio, again directed at Black voters.  

     The Right, I am sorry to say, is not only racist, but uses its race based tactics as a method of winning elections by trying to have race specific voters targeted for elimination from the voter rolls in swing states.  Their methods for doing so have been found to have been illegal.  As a party, their actions have been racist in at least these few past election cycles.  I'm sorry to have to say so about any American, but it is true.  Comments by Mr. Melman (a spelling correction would be appreciated here), and Mr. Steele have acknowledged the racist nature of "The Southern Strategy" used by The Republican party since Mr. Nixon's time as President.

     Are the Democrats sinless?

     You bet they're not.

     But the comparison between left and Right since at least the first Nixon Administration does not make the Republicans look good.

     I suggest, of course, that you not take my word for any of this, and that you research any and all of my statements yourselves.  I've done my best to be accurate, but there's nothing quite like a nice clear steady destructive criticism to show up any flaws in a presentation, and any of you Right wing folks out there can do me only good by showing me where I'm weak, so I can get some more solid details in for you.
Denise
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96 posted 05-11-2010 09:33 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I have done my research, Bob. The police have the right to request your ID during an arrestable offense situation in which they suspect you of a crime already committed or suspect you of one about to be committed. But you have the right not to comply (unless it is a traffic stop where you have to present your driver's license and registration and insurance info), all you have to do is verbally supply your legal name.

It would never have dawned on me not to comply with a request for ID by the police. I really don't see the point. If you do get taken into the station they will get to see your ID eventually anyway. What difference does it make if is before or after you have an attorney? I still contend that the ones upset about a request for ID are those who don't have valid ID to present.

Bob K
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97 posted 05-11-2010 02:09 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I have a valid ID to present.  I am upset by the idea.  I am upset by the idea because I feel my liberties are being eaten away and I am giving my consent to that if I allow that to happen.  There is a whole class of people in the United States who agree with me about this issue,  

     However, the class doesn't need to be large as it is to disprove your theory, which posits only a single class.  There may well be other classes out there which I am too sleepy to look for.

     It may well be that some Libertarians may well be with me on this one, simply because of their basic distrust of governmental structure.  Not all Libertarians will follow the minimal governmental intrusion philosophy as classically as others, however, any more than all Democrats are Liberal Democrats or all Republicans are members of the Radical Right wing.  You claim to be in favor of minimal governmental interference, for example, but you wish for more of it here.  Go figure.
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98 posted 05-11-2010 02:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I am upset by the idea because I feel my liberties are being eaten away

.....and the Oscar goes to....BOB K for his portrayal of an injured American citizen faced with losing his liberties when asked to produce an ID by a police officer!

May that be the  worst thing that ever causes you to be upset, sir.
Bob K
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99 posted 05-12-2010 06:50 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:

     .....and the Oscar goes to....BOB K for his portrayal of an injured American citizen faced with losing his liberties when asked to produce an ID by a police officer!



     Please keep your comments on the discussion and not on what you believe to be my personality.  If you wish to call me hystrionic, I guess I'd have to ask you to prove that.  

    In fact, please prove that assertion or or offer some reasonable response that does not involve what certainly appears to be a personal attack on my motives and my personality.

     What I said was that I had feelings.  I was responding to a comment by Denise.  It was as follows:

quote:

I still contend that the ones upset about a request for ID are those who don't have valid ID to present.



     The very fact that a single person with ID was upset by the notion meant her assertion was false, and was probably a sweeping generalization as well.  Observing the demonstrations in Arizona would have provided grounds for not making such a statement, and would or should have provided enough information to you that your comment about me deserving an Oscar was not to the subject.  Many people were visibly upset, and since they had taken to the street and I had not done so in a fashion visible to you, you were in possession of information that would lead you to believe that my behavior was more rather than less restrained.  Whatever your personal conclusion might have been, and whatever your motives may have been in sharing your thoughts, they were not about the discussion, they were about me.

     Denise was saying that the only people upset would be those without ID.  She was wrong.

     You said something extremely unpleasant about me instead of something about the discussion.

     I want to know why you think such an action was within the rules of this forum.



 
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