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Still think the Republican led AZ legislature isn't racist?

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Bob K
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250 posted 06-24-2010 07:51 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Anyplace where there are displaced persons, pretty much, John.  During World War I, During World War Two, after World War Two until the Jews tried to get into Palestine, when I believe it was considered an invasion by the Brits and by the local Palestinians.  And the recent human Rights crises all over the world.  We tend to think of these as Human Rights Crises, John, though some countries have trouble dealing with the displaced populations and they often are not assimilated, or are assimilated poorly or are kept as guest laborors in the country or some such.

     In fact, I'd venture to say that most people in this country, while they may not know what to do with the migrants, would find the word "invasion" a bit odd.  The word suggests an army, which would have an organizing principle and a structure of organization, which the migrants certainly do not have, or it might also be an extremely poorly chosen metaphor for an insect swarm, which would suggest that they aren't even human, which one might hope is language that no citizen of this country would use about a fellow human being.

     Am I misreading you, somehow, John?

  
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251 posted 06-24-2010 08:12 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

There you go, John. Mexicans are displaced. They want to leave der place and come to dis place!

Invasions are normally armies? Hmmm..we had the British invasion, led by the Beatles in the 60's. Guess they don't count
Bob K
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252 posted 06-24-2010 10:36 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     You haven't thought about it, if you're simply passing the notion off, Mike.  And it's not simply Mexicans from the south, it's all sorts of central and south Americans.

     If you'll think back in American history, you'll be able to pick out various economic cycles that pushed migrations in this country as well, and into the same territories out west as well.  Economic upheavals, such as the Great Depression, produced mass migrations here.  Many of the migrants — American Migrants, I might add — were not terribly welcome wherever they went as well.  Think Okies, for example.

     Ask yourself where the various vagrancy laws came from if it wasn't to protect locals from an influx of poor folks looking for work with no visible means of support.  There's a whole body of social work literature on the subject.  The gold rush was certainly economic, but worked as an attraction for fortune hunters, as did the smaller gold rushes out west that followed.  But there were also depressions in the 1870's and in 1893 that pushed westward movement.

     Why would you think that wars are the only cause of population displacements?

     They are certainly big ones, of course, but the poor economic conditions south of the border have had a lot to do with them as well.  Also the various power struggles around commodities driven by economics up here, such as — dare I mention it? — the black market in heroin and in cocaine that keeps the profits in what should be cheap substances sky high and which fuels an enormous crime wave in this country.

Huan Yi
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253 posted 06-25-2010 12:01 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


I was thinking what if instead of the United States and Mexico we were talking about
France and Germany?  What if instead of Bismarck, Kaiser Wilhelm and Adolf Hitler
there had been Adolf Kinders  whose answer to seeking Lebensraum was to allow even
encourage millions of its least skilled and educated but fatherland loving Germans,
(and through it Austrians etc), to over the years illegally enter into France through
the Ardennes?   It seems given the tone here that France wouldn’t be right to do
much if anything to effectively stem much less stop that.


.
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254 posted 06-25-2010 08:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What about the Jews on the ships fleeing Germany who were not allowed to land in the US?
Bob K
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255 posted 06-25-2010 10:06 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     What if we deal with the question you brought up first, John, before we begin to postulate kinder, gentler conservatives being in charge of the Third Reich?

     How many Turks are there in Germany, how many Arabs are there in France, and how many Muslims are there in Great Britain now,  when the forces that pushed colonial expansionism in the various European powers hit the point of catastrophic collapse?  Why would you expect a phenomenon from our era to show up a hundred years ago, when social, military and economic conditions were radically different?  You're postulating an alternative history novel, where somebody shows up with AK-47's in the middle of the civil war or the like, not something realistic.

     I like science fiction, too, but here it's a distraction from your original question.

     And, Mike, xenophobia has been a factor in American history and policy for quite a while, and the forces that sent that sad ship back to the Third Reich are the same forces that seem to be showing themselves so powerfully now in the hinterlands.
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256 posted 06-26-2010 07:24 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

So basically the vote’s for no limiting immigration policy unless and only if it
effects WASPs

.
Bob K
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257 posted 06-26-2010 08:09 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     That's an interesting take.  Did you get that from something I said?  I'm not sure of the connection?

     Now the folks who helped Mr. Pearce write that Arizona law were very much in that vein, Viva White Europeans! and all that Eugenics Stuff.  The law feels very much in that spirit to me, but in fairness, I am a minority and the reasoning I use to get there is specious.  Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas is Halo Effect sort of thinking, and greatly flawed, and I know it.

     The fact that it's hard to be sure that somebody from outside Arizona is a citizen of the U.S. by looking at their license makes the law difficult.  In Arizona the license requires that you show proof of U.S. birth to get a license, while I believe you can get a license in other states with passports or foreign birth certificates if necessary.  That requires out of state folk in Arizona to carry other documents or to pray they don't get pulled over or questioned for other reasons.

     Not to mention other constitutional issues.

     I would think that those would be enough, wouldn't you?

     But please, tell me about the racist WASP stuff you apparently see.  I'm fascinated.  

     You mean WASPS would be subject to racism too?

     Like the other races?

     SOMETHING MUST BE DONE IMMEDIATELY!

Denise
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258 posted 07-01-2010 07:30 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It is truly a shame:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzDlN7VLmXQ&feature=player_embedded
Balladeer
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259 posted 07-01-2010 08:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

She's asking Obama to do his job. Actually, he is. Sadly, his job does not include what's in the best interest of the country, especially when it involves the welfare of states who weren't going to vote for him, anyway.

I'm sure she didn't really think the gut-shot reaction promises he made under the pressure of a face-to-face meeting with her would come to pass....and she was right.
JenniferMaxwell
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260 posted 07-01-2010 08:58 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Sounds like we not only stole land from the Native Americans, we also stole it from the Mexicans.

“In the Mexican–American War (1847), the U.S. occupied Mexico City and forced the newly founded Mexican Republic to give up its northern territories, including what later became Arizona.”

Maybe bad karma is part of the reason Arizona is having problems - Japanese internment camps and:

“Arizona was also home to the Phoenix Indian School, one of several federal institutions designed to assimilate native children into mainstream culture. Children were often enrolled into these schools against the wishes of their parents and families. Attempts to suppress native identities included forcing the children to cut their hair and take on western names.”

Wiki
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261 posted 07-01-2010 09:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

We have our answer again, Denise...bad karma since 1847. Why didn't we think of that????
JenniferMaxwell
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262 posted 07-01-2010 09:29 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Was just wondering, isn't that kidnapping when you take children away from their parents without their permission?
Denise
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263 posted 07-01-2010 10:10 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It's unbelievable, Michael. The government's answer to the broken borders is to post signs 80 miles NORTH of the border warning Americans not to enter.

It sounds like it's time for the military to repel this invasion of the drug cartels and human trafficers.
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264 posted 07-01-2010 10:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sounds like the country just got 80 miles shorter, Denise.
JenniferMaxwell
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265 posted 07-01-2010 10:33 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Bring in the IDF with their paint ball guns, the Israeli wall builders with their Berlinesque concrete, and terrorists like Yousef to throw rocks at the invaders! Our troops, our National Guard are busy killing civilians in Bush's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, lying in hospitals or resting in peace in Arlington.  
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266 posted 07-01-2010 10:47 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Which reminds me of something I've been wondering about, how many troops does our ally Israel have in Iraq and Afghanistan?
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267 posted 07-01-2010 11:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

WASHINGTON — President Obama called on Congress Thursday to cast aside political pettiness and fear to repair a "broken and dangerous" immigration system that he said demonizes millions of undocumented workers, undermines border security efforts and "makes a mockery" of legal immigration.

"The natural impulse among those who run for office is to turn away and defer this question for another day, or another year, or another administration," Obama said in the first major speech of his presidency on the subject.

He challenged Republicans to support legislation that would beef up border security, hold employers accountable and offer a path to citizenship for about 11 million people living in the USA illegally.

"I'm ready to move forward, the majority of Democrats are ready to move forward, and I believe the majority of Americans are ready to move forward," he told an audience of supporters at American University.


hmmm...isn't this the same guy who declared a couple of months ago that it had been a tiring year for congress and he didn't expect them to deal with immigration laws this year?

I wonder what changed....
JenniferMaxwell
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268 posted 07-01-2010 11:14 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Maybe he saw a crack forming in the Party of NO. Let's see how much support the proposed legislation gets from them.
Bob K
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269 posted 07-02-2010 04:31 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I think the politics have changed.

     If The President can get the Republicans to block any attempt immigration reform while screaming that it's needed, it won't particularly effect the Republican base — folks like yourself, Mike, who see most things that the President does as ill intentioned or wrong.  But it may make a very large impact on Hispanic voters, which are a very large voting block now, and one that's getting larger all the time.  The Republicans may feel that they need to take a more solid Pro-Arizona type stance to play to their base for the mid-term elections to have their best hope for changing the balance in the senate and the house.  Doing that, though, could solidify the long term Hispanic vote against the Republicans.  It would also get the Democrats really out in force for the 2012 elections, and that might solidify a longer term Democratic majority in both the House and Senate and quite possibly give the Democrats another Presidential term.

     For sure, I don't know, but that's the way I read it for now.

     Of course, you may have been asking for more of a partisan discussion about the goodness and badness of the President.  If that's the case, I may have disappointed you here.  I was trying to answer in terms of what I actually see as at least one possible way for the politics to work out over the mid-term future, perhaps the next two years or so.

     What's the take of other interested folks here?
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270 posted 07-02-2010 06:01 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It sure sounds like it Mike, but why worry about that and actually secure the borders when you can create strife division and pander to ther Latino vote to shore up your miserable approval numbers.
JenniferMaxwell
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271 posted 07-02-2010 06:55 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

True or false quiz:

Obama has placed twice the number of border agents patrolling the border with Mexico than Bush, and deported far more illegal immigrants his 1 1/2 years in office than Bush did during entire his eight years in office.

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272 posted 07-02-2010 08:03 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, we agree here. It has become an issue the president cannot ignore any longer and it is becoming political poison to him, with over 20 states on the verge of formulating their own versions of the Arizona law. About the best chance he has is to throw a bill at the republicans that they will not vote on, due to provisions like granting amnesty to over a million already here or other such details tossed in, and then, when they reject it, scream that he tried and the republicans won't let him. Actually, he is screaming that very thing now. He will try to use it (1) as a way of blaming someone else, which he is becoming famous for, and (2) mobilizing the democratic base and, hopefully, the latino vote.

It's all politics......he's not the only president to act that way but he may be the only one doing it who promised such change in Washington and doing away with politics as usual, which has become obviously false.
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273 posted 07-02-2010 08:38 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

"WASHINGTON – Hoping to breathe new life into the stalled immigration effort, President Barack Obama on Thursday blamed the delay on recalcitrant Republicans whom he said had given in to the "pressures of partisanship and election-year politics."

Republicans responded that Obama's first step going forward must be to secure the border.

Obama dismissed the focus on a "border security first" approach, saying the system is too big to be fixed "only with fences and border patrols." He advocated a comprehensive approach that would call on the government, businesses and illegal immigrants themselves to live up to their responsibilities within the law.

Obama also wants to create a pathway to citizenship for the estimated 11 million illegal immigrants in the U.S; critics call it amnesty. But Obama said the immigrants must first acknowledge that they broke the law, pay fines and back taxes, perform community service and learn English.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said Obama would get the bipartisan support he wants "if he would take amnesty off the table and make a real commitment to border and interior security."

In Arizona, which is weeks away from enacting a controversial anti-immigrant law that Obama has called "misguided," "
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_immigration


So Obama has gone from "unconstitutional" to "illegal" to "misguided"....perhaps "naughty" is next?
JenniferMaxwell
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274 posted 07-02-2010 09:12 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"But Obama said the immigrants must first acknowledge that they broke the law, pay fines and back taxes, perform community service and learn English."

Sounds rather similar to what Bush proposed back in 2005.
 
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