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Passions in Poetry

Protesting.....Lefty-style.

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Balladeer
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175 posted 05-15-2010 06:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I don't understand what terry stops are, much less chalk and cheese.

You guys speak funny English
Grinch
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176 posted 05-15-2010 07:03 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Thatís odd Mike, Terry stops are an American colloquialism, if I mentioned them to a Brit they wouldnít understand what I was talking about but Iíd have expected an American to recognise the term. They stem from a famous constitutional decision by the Supreme Court that extended the stop and search laws:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio

Chalk and cheese both look similar but are completely different things, very much like the Arizona and Oklahoma legislation.

Denise
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177 posted 05-15-2010 10:09 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'd never heard the term Terry Stop before you mentioned it either, Grinch. Stop and Frisk I'd heard of but not Terry Stop. Now I know they are the same thing.

quote:
FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT (Amended to any Lawful Stop, Detention or Arrest) MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT...


To make this new law palatable, Grinch, would the removal of the words lawful stop and detention, and just have the term 'arrest' in it be the answer, or should it be changed to 'charged'? Or should that section stand as written and just remove the 'reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States' and just check the immigration status of everyone who is lawfully stopped, detained, or arrested?

The Okalahoma law seems more severe in that it makes some interaction with illegals, like harboring, sheltering, or facilitating transport within the state a felony while  the Arizona law makes it a misdemeanor.
Bob K
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178 posted 05-15-2010 10:34 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Work on the accuracy of your comments, Mike.  In that case there wouldn't be any issue on which to expend ill mannered sarcasm, would there?  You wouldn't be caught up this way.  

     You're going to blame me for your comments and distortions?  Good work if you can get it.  Also, I notice, you don't have to moderate your speech, so that future encounters of the same sort are all but guaranteed, whereas if you did a bit more fact-checking they would all but vanish.  Very canny on your part, I must say.  Very canny.
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179 posted 05-16-2010 01:34 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You may find it odd, grinch, but I have never heard of it and I can assure you I could question 10 random pwoplw on the street and none of them would know it, either. Where you got it from, I have no idea.

if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime

If that is the part of the "Terry stop" that was found not to be unconstitutional,I see no problem with it at all.
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180 posted 05-16-2010 01:35 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, my comment #175 also applies to you
Bob K
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181 posted 05-16-2010 02:41 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     For "funny English" I expect to see more laughter.  I sort of like the "chalk and cheese" bit, though having tried English cooking, don't let 'em fool you, Mike; the two are not as far apart as they'd like you to believe.  And if anybody invites you to try "mushy peas," don't stop to discuss the question, simply run.  Even then, survival is a moot question.

     Remember, Mike, these are people who think the phrase "mushy peas" isn't an oxymoron, but a description of a culinary masterwork.

     Be afraid,  Be very afraid.


Balladeer
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182 posted 05-16-2010 08:13 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I am, Bob...and I still can't understand why grinch thinks that you're my uncle
Grinch
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183 posted 05-16-2010 11:16 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Denise,

If the Arizona bill stated that checks regarding citizenship would be conducted on every person charged with a felony there wouldnít be an issue.

quote:
Where you got it from, I have no idea.


I originally came across the term in American tv and films of the 70ís dealing with law and order Mike, I wondered what it meant so I researched the term. Later I came across it numerous times while researching American law and Law enforcement procedures for a book. Recently I found the term scattered across the interweb while reading up on the Arizona immigration law. Iím surprised the term isnít more widely recognised among Americans, itís got a similar history and is equally, if not more, important than Miranda from a civil rights point of view.

Perhaps the term is localised among the American law enforcement community.

.
Balladeer
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184 posted 05-16-2010 11:18 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Perhaps, grinch, but having been a member of that community, it's still foreign to me.

Live and learn...
Denise
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185 posted 05-16-2010 01:42 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Why restrict the checks to only those charged with a felony, Grinch? Why not throw misdemeanors in as well?

Grinch
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186 posted 05-16-2010 02:23 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


As the authors of the Oklahoma law are no doubt aware including misdemeanours would open up the possibility for abuse and possible unlawful detentions. Misdemeanours extend to include some very low level offenses, which under certain circumstances wouldnít result in the detention of the accused. Detention is the key Denise. There is no physical way to check the citizenship status of everyone without some of those people being detained. To avoid detaining people unlawfully the authors of the Oklahoma law decided to enforce the check only on those who are already detained for another reason. Smart  thinking in my opinion.

The authors of the Arizona law? Not so smart.
Bob K
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187 posted 05-16-2010 04:52 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Don't know that it's so true over here, but in England at least, I'm everybody's Uncle, Mike.

     Poor Jack.
Balladeer
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188 posted 05-16-2010 08:04 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

possibility for abuse and possible unlawful detentions.

Amazing how popular that word possible has become lately.
Grinch
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189 posted 05-16-2010 08:15 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Amazing how popular that word possible has become lately.


Hereís your chance to join in Mike. Is it possible that the Arizona law will result in law-abiding citizens being detained? Is it possible that a small minority of law enforcement officers will abuse the Arizona law?

.
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190 posted 05-16-2010 08:51 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

grinch, it is possible that ANY law can be abused by a  police officer. I have seen it happen and I'll wager it can even happen in England. Fortunately it's rare in comparison to police who do not abuse the system. What are you saying - that, if Arizona had not passed this law, there would never be police abuses in Arizona? That's not the world we live in, even in Arizona.

Instead of condemning them for actions they have not yet committed, why not wait to see if they commit them and then scream?

Unfortunately, as I said earlier, they have been armed with this automatic "Prejudice!!" yell which they know they will be able to use with the certainty of getting sympathetic reactions. Thank you, Barack. The police will have to be even more careful not to abuse the law and that's a good thing for the law-abiding citizens.
Bob K
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191 posted 05-17-2010 02:34 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Well, most laws are not set up to invite lawsuits from those who feel it isn't being enforced vigorously enough, though, Mike, and that by itself makes this different from other laws.  It encourages police to feel edgy about not pushing it to the satisfaction of the folks who are more on the fringe, and it empowers the more xenophobic members of the population to act in a more aggressive fashion and to push the police to do so as well.

     Furthermore, it forces the public to fund that effort.

     So yes, I believe it is substantially different that other laws in this.
serenity blaze
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192 posted 05-17-2010 03:05 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I'm a bit bemused as this stuff is old news to me--

quote:
Sheriff HARRY LEE (Jefferson Parish, Louisiana): My friends are my friends and the hell with everybody else.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14887184

This colorful, chinese-american sheriff was oft quoted (and I paraphrase, but I'm sure ya'll can find it if you look hard enough, that he couldn't be prejudiced because, afterall, he was Chinese.

He encouraged racial profiling as simple common sense police work, and oh, but that attitude did sooooooo much to alleviate racial tensions in Jefferson Parish, which pretty much is the second skin Parish (County) to Orleans.

And yes, the man was legend, and much beloved and forgiven as evidenced by his election wins. He was forgiven because...? He didn't really mean it?

Tell it to the families of the victims on Danziger Bridge. Prejudicial policy should be staunchly opposed before it snowballs into painful cultural divisions that should in no way ever be glorified as "diversity".

And I say this full well knowing that some think I've turned a blind loving eye to my own hometown.

Think again. I think we all witnessed the horrific results that occur when racism is not stopped in its electoral tracks--no matter how charming, how endearing, or street-smart, tough-guy-wise the guy (or gal) who speaks such trash might seem--such policies can't be condoned, lest they become so common-place that we no longer recognize the glaring injustice that impinges upon our individual constitutional civil rights.

G'nite folks. Sleep tight?

G'nite.
 
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