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Protesting.....Lefty-style.

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Balladeer
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75 posted 05-02-2010 04:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

grinch, the cost will be in handling the illegals that are caught by the system. Yes, there will be costs involved in that regard.

Local Rebel
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76 posted 05-02-2010 04:50 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

B.  For any lawful contact  stop, detention or arrest made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who and is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/hb2162c.htm



Or if you're having trouble reading English Mike -- it's all explained for you right here on video:
http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/lawmakers-amend-language-of-sb-1070-19408602

HOUSE BILL 2162 clearly opens the door of immigration status checking to civil offenses.  
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77 posted 05-02-2010 05:06 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
the cost will be in handling the illegals that are caught by the system.


Do police officers have access to a national database that contains details of all citizens Mike?

.
Balladeer
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78 posted 05-02-2010 05:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state

It's right there in you excerpt, LR. Perhaps you overlooked it....or may be ignored it?
Local Rebel
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79 posted 05-02-2010 05:12 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

NOGALES, Ariz. - Assistant Police Chief Roy Bermudez shakes his head and smiles when he hears politicians and pundits declaring that Mexican cartel violence is overrunning his Arizona border town.

"We have not, thank God, witnessed any spillover violence from Mexico," Bermudez says emphatically. "You can look at the crime stats. I think Nogales, Arizona, is one of the safest places to live in all of America."

FBI Uniform Crime Reports and statistics provided by police agencies, in fact, show that the crime rates in Nogales, Douglas, Yuma and other Arizona border towns have remained essentially flat for the past decade, even as drug-related violence has spiraled out of control on the other side of the international line. Statewide, rates of violent crime also are down.

While smugglers have become more aggressive in their encounters with authorities, as evidenced by the shooting of a Pinal County deputy on Friday, allegedly by illegal-immigrant drug runners, they do not routinely target residents of border towns.

In 2000, there were 23 rapes, robberies and murders in Nogales, Ariz. Last year, despite nearly a decade of population growth, there were 19 such crimes. Aggravated assaults dropped by one-third. No one has been murdered in two years.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2010/05/02/20100502arizona-border-violence-mexico.html#ixzz0moDIhJfE



It's about racism.
Local Rebel
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80 posted 05-02-2010 05:14 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

It's right there in you excerpt, LR. Perhaps you overlooked it....or may be ignored it?



Yes Mike, it's right there in my excerpt -- read it!  ANY ordinance... tall grass, barking dogs, spitting on the sidewalk.
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81 posted 05-02-2010 05:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Aha....I see now. You share the same opinion of the police as do Obama and Bob.

So now it's going to be.."Hey! Your grass is too tall. Gimmee your ID!" or "Ingrate! You spat on the sidewalk. Let's see some ID!" or "Listen, jerk, your dog is barking too loud! ID - now!!!"

Give my regards to the Wizard of Oz next time you see him.
Local Rebel
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82 posted 05-02-2010 05:33 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

You are so often adamant that posters not put words in your mouth Mike -- or try to assume they understand your position -- yet you are always willing to completely mis-characterize the position of anyone who disagrees with you to the absurd and extreme.  (also known as erecting a strawman)

I've already posted this from Bishop Desmond Tutu and I will reiterate his sentiment:

quote:

How far can this go? We lived it -- police waking a man up in the middle of the night and hauling him off to jail for not having his documents on his person while he slept. The fact that they were in his nightstand near the bed was not good enough.

Of course if you suggested such a possibility today to an Arizona policeman he would be adamant that he would never do such a thing. And I would believe him. Arizona is a long way from apartheid South Africa.

The problem is, under the new law, the one or two who would do it are legitimized. All they have to say is that they believed that illegal immigrants were being harbored in the house. They would be protected and sanctioned by this law.

Abominations such as apartheid do not start with an entire population suddenly becoming inhumane. They start here. They start with generalizing unwanted characteristics across an entire segment of a population. They start with trying to solve a problem by asserting superior force over a population. They start with stripping people of rights and dignity - such as the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty - that you yourself enjoy. Not because it is right, but because you can. And because somehow, you think this is going to solve a problem.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/desmond-tutu/arizona----the-wrong-answ_b_557955.html  


Balladeer
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83 posted 05-02-2010 06:04 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The problem is, under the new law, the one or two who would do it are legitimized. All they have to say is that they believed that illegal immigrants were being harbored in the house.

Not legitimized at all. In a court of law they would have to prove they had valid reasons for their actions, the same way they would have to prove they had valid reasons for an unwarranted search, based on the immediate situation. That's not to say there isn't a bad cop or two. I've known them. Do you trash a system because a microscopic amount would abuse it? No...you scrap those who abuse it.

Tutu can speak of stripping people of their rights and dignity all he wants. That has no validity here. It's a law to curb the incredible crime rate being conducted by illegal aliens. It's a law to curb the millions of   illegal drugs brought there by illegal aliens. Would decent people have their sensitivities ruffled by a state trying to make it's cities safer? I don't think so...
Local Rebel
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84 posted 05-02-2010 06:12 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Not legitimized at all. In a court of law they would have to prove they had valid reasons for their actions,



Under HB2162 Mike -- the barking dog, or the complaining neighbor, IS all the proof they would need.

quote:

It's a law to curb the incredible crime rate being conducted by illegal aliens.



You're impervious to facts.  Did you read post #79 at all?  
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85 posted 05-02-2010 06:31 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Fine...Nogales is a safe city. So you think Arizona has come up with this law just because they felt like harrassing people?

Show me any state where a barking dog complaint or having grass too tall is grounds for demanding identification.
Local Rebel
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86 posted 05-02-2010 06:33 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Show me any state where a barking dog complaint or having grass too tall is grounds for demanding identification.



Arizona

quote:

Fine...Nogales is a safe city. So you think Arizona has come up with this law just because they felt like harrassing people?



Yes (you'll have to click on the 'get table' button once you hit the link)
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87 posted 05-02-2010 07:11 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

    Show me any state where a barking dog complaint or having grass too tall is grounds for demanding identification.

Arizona


Prove it, Joe Friday. (I'll give you a C for a cute way to ignore the question)


Ok, I see. The governor of Arizona woke up one morning with a bad hangover from all of that Arizona Iced Tea the night before and said, "Let's stir up a little excitement here. I'll write out a new law that will harrass everybody, cause all kinds of problems, turn the White House and the rest of the country against us, blackball the baseball team, possibly cost us the All Star game and we cal all have some fun watching all of the parades and riots. I'll send out for burritos!"

Got it
Local Rebel
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88 posted 05-02-2010 07:16 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Prove it, Joe Friday. (I'll give you a C for a cute way to ignore the question)



Already have Mike -- it's what we've been talking about the whole time -- that's what SB1070 and HB2162 do.  Perhaps you'd like the Spanish translation of the bills?

quote:

Ok, I see. The governor of Arizona woke up one morning with a bad hangover from all of that Arizona Iced Tea the night before and said, "Let's stir up a little excitement here. I'll write out a new law that will harrass everybody, cause all kinds of problems, turn the White House and the rest of the country against us, blackball the baseball team, possibly cost us the All Star game and we cal all have some fun watching all of the parades and riots. I'll send out for burritos!"



That's certainly more plausible than the crime statistics I linked you to Mike.  Read them.
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89 posted 05-02-2010 07:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually it's not. The governor stated clearly that immigration checks would only be conducted on persons who were having a background check run for other reasons. Owning a barking dog does not warrant a background investigation,
Local Rebel
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90 posted 05-02-2010 07:34 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

And we live in a nation where governor's statements are the law... right Mike?  Not what legislators write down and then send to governors.  Read the citations of the actual bills Mike.  I'm not posting them again.
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91 posted 05-02-2010 07:37 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
The governor stated clearly that immigration checks would only be conducted on persons who were having a background check run for other reasons.


How exactly would they do that check Mike, is there a national database they can access?

By the way I understand that there are several states in which youíd get arrested for obstructing a police officer if you refused to identify yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes
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92 posted 05-02-2010 07:40 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     You'd have to show increased crime to show " It's a law to curb the incredible crime rate being conducted by illegal aliens."  If you can't show an increased crime rate, then you're wrong.  From what LR says, the FBI stats say you're wrong, and the FBI stats are generally regarded as the gold standard in the field, aren't they?  

     Apparently, that doesn't stop you from trying to say it again in the hopes that somebody will overlook reality and accept what you say is fact.  If you can give me some neutral and authoritative figures, I might be inclined to believe you myself:  Where are they?

     Actually, it was not Governor Brewer who wrote the law.  It was FAIR, and lawyers working for FAIR.  Fair is an organization that has in the past  funded and backed Eugenics and racist organizations.  The current President in an interview on the Rachel Maddow Show Denied  spending a dime to fund and organization called PAN, involved in Arizona Politics around Immigration issues a few years back.  The Head of PAN had to resign when she acknowledged that she was a member of a European Rights organization that preached racial segregation.  Alas for the current President of FAIR, his organization  was listed with Arizona as having contributed several hundred thousand dollars to FAIR.  Links go much further and deeper than that.  Those are the authors of the bill.

     Should you wish to research Mr. Pearce, the sponsor of the Bill in the State Senate, you will find that he sent around some antisemitic news releases to his constituents last year, and there are pictures of him with members of the local neo-nazis.  Governor Brewer still doesn't know how you'd identify somebody as looking like an illegal immigrant, which was the law she signed.  

     The law's provision that demands that officers get identification from those who look like illegals still demands that they make some sort of determination as to what an illegal looks like, which is an open demand for racial profiling, and provides an avenue for those officers to be sued if they don't do so to the satisfaction of whoever may be looking on and thinks that they should have done so more thoroughly.  

     That is going to cost the state money, both to defend the police, and to pay for the prosecution, which the law demands that they do.  So much for not costing anything.

     My dislike for the law has nothing to do with my generally positive feelings for the police.

     If your feelings for the police were as generally positive as you say they are, you wouldn't be taking the position you are.  You rob them here of potential witnesses to crimes that they might otherwise count upon.  You turn parts of the community against them that might in other cuircumstances be neutral, and you range their anxiety level in everyday policing.  Furthermore, you put them at the mercy of people on both sides of the political spectrum who feel that they may be overstepping their bounds by either being too active or not active enough in doing their jobs.  You make them a target of public hostility when they need increased public cooperation.  If you were actually a real ally of the police instead of a Republican partisan who's willing to use the police as a pawn in his cynical partisan manoevers, you'd be on the other side of this, and you'd be working on some way of getting a fair and decent law written that doesn't put the police in such a dangerous position.  They need a safer environment with a more cooperative public and closer community relations, not the reverse.

    
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93 posted 05-02-2010 08:11 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

stop, detention or arrest

where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who and is unlawfully present in the United States,

Any person who is arrested shall have the person's immigration status determined before the person is released.


So...does having tall grass warrant a stop, detention or arrest?
Is a barking dog a reasonable suspicion that the person is an alien?

It's fascinating that so many people are concerned about illegal aliens being discovered. They are worried about innocent people being badgered even before innocent people are badgered. How are illegals supposed to be discovered? Should they all wear "I'm an illegal alien" buttons? That would certainly simplify things.

If your feelings for the police were as generally positive as you say they are,

Bob, my feelings and backing for the police is beyond question. It's not the law that will be causing hassles for the police - it will be the fabricated ridiculous reactions to the law.

Grinch, police departments use NCIC, the National Crime Information Center.
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94 posted 05-02-2010 08:17 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

(hint -- it's in post 76 Mike)
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95 posted 05-02-2010 08:28 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

yes, that's where the comments in bold came from.
Bob K
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96 posted 05-02-2010 11:16 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:


Bob, my feelings and backing for the police is beyond question. It's not the law that will be causing hassles for the police - it will be the fabricated ridiculous reactions to the law.



     I express my views and you question them, even mischaracterize them.  I made a point in logic and you get upset?  Despite what you claim to be your feelings for the police, your support for this bill makes policing more difficult and dangerous.  It takes away possible allies and adds potential enemies.

     If this is untrue, show me how it's untrue.

     Tell me how the possibility of being sued by both the Latin community and the xenophobic community will make police morale skyrocket.  Tell me how the sudden scattering of potential witnesses to crimes who are illegals will help the police make their cases and help the solving of crimes.  Tell me how this law will help the relationship between the police and the Latin community.  Tell me how being told how to do their policework will make the police feel as though they are supported by their community.  Tell me how they will feel trying to figure out ways of justifying a choice of who is a person who looks like an illegal and someone who doesn't.  

     Support your local police, Mike.
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97 posted 05-02-2010 11:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Never mind. it doesn't matter. None of it matters. Go about your merry way and let a smile be your umbrella.

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (05-03-2010 12:01 AM).]

Grinch
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98 posted 05-03-2010 02:59 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Grinch, police departments use NCIC, the National Crime Information Center.

They canít use the NCIC database to check whether someone is a legal citizen Mike, the system contains details of wanted criminals, missing persons and anyone with an outstanding warrant or criminal record. It doesnít contain any details of legal and law abiding citizens. From what I can tell there isnít, in fact, any national database that law enforcement officers can use, instead the onus is on the citizen to present evidence to prove that they are legal residents.

So when the police ask someone to provide such evidence, and they canít, what are they going to do, let them go?

.
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99 posted 05-03-2010 05:43 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I set up a link to the law earlier in this thread, Mr Grinch.  I believe that if a person cannot provide identification and information about their place of birth, they are supposed to be arrested, jailed and fined.

     This seems to me to be a breach of 14th ammendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure.  There is no demonstrable probable cause, near as I can tell for identifying a person as an illegal alien that isn't also a test for being a brown skinned person with ó if they speak with you ó an accent.  And that is racial profiling.

    
 
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