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Protesting.....Lefty-style.

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Balladeer
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50 posted 05-01-2010 07:55 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Maybe I'll look too illegal for the people there.  Maybe they won't think my beard is American enough — clearly a dead give-away, or my eyes won't be blue enough.

Congrats. you have matched Obama's high level of lunacy when he claimed the ice-cream buying father was not safe.


It cannot help but be.  Whether the Governor feels it's a fair law or not, she still is unable to specify how one identifies somebody who shows the likelihood of being an Illegal alien, and the constitutionality of arresting people for not displaying identification on demand is dubious.

There will be no arresting for not displaying ID. How can you continue to refuse to acknowledge what the law says? It clearly states that demands for ID can only be made if the subject is stopped for another reason...and they will have to show that reason in court, if there is doubt. It's no different than police being able to search your car or house without a warrant if they can show reasonable cause.


If there was nothing wrong with the law or its implementation, why did they rush through a bunch of amendments so quickly, Mike?

Because of people like Obama who condemned it without even reading it, because of people who jumped on the bandwagon to protest it without even reading it.

I have to admit it's funny to hear a democrat speak of rushing bills through quickly, though
Grinch
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51 posted 05-01-2010 09:48 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
There will be no arresting for not displaying ID.


How would that work Mike?

If someone is stopped for an offence that doesn’t warrant an arrest but is unable to show a legitimate form of identity does the officer arrest him or let him go?

.
Local Rebel
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52 posted 05-01-2010 09:49 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Equally disturbing is what will happen in the mind of the policeman. The police talk today about how they do not wish to, and will not, engage in racial profiling. Yet faced with the option of using common sense and compassion, or harassing a person who has done nothing wrong, a particularly sinister aspect of Arizona's new immigration law will be hanging over his head. He can be personally sued, by anyone, for failing to enforce this inhumane new act.

I recognize that Arizona has become a widening entry point for illegal immigration from the South. The wave has brought with it rising violence and drug smuggling.

But a solution that degrades innocent people, or that makes anyone with broken English a suspect, is not a solution. A solution that fails to distinguish between a young child coming over the border in search of his mother and a drug smuggler is not a solution.

I am not speaking from an ivory tower. I lived in the South Africa that has now thankfully faded into history, where a black man or woman could be grabbed off the street and thrown in jail for not having his or her documents on their person.

How far can this go? We lived it -- police waking a man up in the middle of the night and hauling him off to jail for not having his documents on his person while he slept. The fact that they were in his nightstand near the bed was not good enough.

Of course if you suggested such a possibility today to an Arizona policeman he would be adamant that he would never do such a thing. And I would believe him. Arizona is a long way from apartheid South Africa.

The problem is, under the new law, the one or two who would do it are legitimized. All they have to say is that they believed that illegal immigrants were being harbored in the house. They would be protected and sanctioned by this law.

Abominations such as apartheid do not start with an entire population suddenly becoming inhumane. They start here. They start with generalizing unwanted characteristics across an entire segment of a population. They start with trying to solve a problem by asserting superior force over a population. They start with stripping people of rights and dignity - such as the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty - that you yourself enjoy. Not because it is right, but because you can. And because somehow, you think this is going to solve a problem.

However, when you strip a man or a woman of their basic human rights, you strip them of their dignity in the eyes of their family and their community, and even in their own eyes. An immigrant who is charged with the crime of trespassing for simply being in a community without his papers on him is being told he is committing a crime by simply being. He or she feels degraded and feels they are of less worth than others of a different color skin. These are the seeds of resentment, hostilities and in extreme cases, conflict.

Such "solutions" solve nothing. As already pointed out, even by people on the police force, Arizona's new laws will split the communities, make it less likely that people in the immigrant communities will work with the police. They will create conditions favorable to the very criminals these laws are trying to disarm.

Desmond Tutu http://www.huffingtonpost.com/desmond-tutu/arizona----the-wrong-answ_b_557955.html


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53 posted 05-01-2010 01:12 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The follow-on legislation approved Thursday also would change the law to specify that immigration-status questions would follow a law enforcement officer's stopping, detaining or arresting a person while enforcing another law.
Brewer's spokesman said that makes it clear that police cannnot question people just on the suspicion they're illegal immigrants.


Nice. First we have Bob relating the law to police possibly stopping him on the street because his beard is too long or eyes are too blue or he's not carrying a passport and now we have graduated to references of apartheid in south Africa. Where will this dance take us next?

Do you think that by just ignoring the quote above, you can freely paint any scenario you feel like? In other words, do you think you are? Obama?

People will not be questioned solely on the suspicion they may be illegal aliens. It's there in black and white. Ignoring it won't change it or make it go away. Continue on with Nazi Germany, South Africa or Oz...it doesn't change it.

Grinch
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54 posted 05-01-2010 02:14 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
If someone is stopped for an offence that doesn’t warrant an arrest but is unable to show a legitimate form of identity does the officer arrest him or let him go?


Does anyone know?

.
Bob K
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55 posted 05-01-2010 04:17 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     People can and have been stopped for almost anything, including, "Your brake light looked funny to me" as an excuse for a check on people's papers and for a quick look inside a car, Mike.  I've been inside cars where that's happened.  In my younger days, I was stopped once or twice for "driving with long Hair," but had to be released when all they could find was hamburger wrappers and Macdonald's cups on the floor.  I've had friends stopped for "Driving while Black."  They had to be released as well.
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56 posted 05-01-2010 06:29 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Bob, while I agree with what you just said I don't think that's even the worst part.  I think this is the ultimate danger:

quote:

Arizona's new laws will split the communities, make it less likely that people in the immigrant communities will work with the police. They will create conditions favorable to the very criminals these laws are trying to disarm.

Balladeer
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57 posted 05-01-2010 08:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually, reb, it's not the law who will do that. It's the reaction to the law that is doing that. It is Obama and his ice cream, Sharpeton and Jackson screaming racism, the newspapers jumping o n the sensationalism and everyone ignoring exactly what the law says doing that. Congrats to all. Immigrants, legal and illegal, have been given the exact ammunition they need to rebel.

Funny thing is that, if it had been a democrat's idea, I think you would have seen the exact opposite. Newspapers would applauded the logic of it. Obama would have explained that it is no encroachment on individual rights, that it would simply be background check on people who would have done something to warrant a background check anyway, it would be an effective way to combat the huge crime rate and citizens would be safer for it. The dem talking heads  would applaud such an innovative idea and everyone would be happy. SInce it is the other side of the coin, though, it has to be villified....as it is being.

I salute you all. You will soon be able to enjoy your self-fulfilling prophesy.
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58 posted 05-01-2010 09:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Funny brake lights and long hair....you have  an unbelievable background, Bob.


If someone is stopped for an offence that doesn’t warrant an arrest but is unable to show a legitimate form of identity does the officer arrest him or let him go?

Grinch, I don't see where it would be any different because of this law. Not carrying id is not an arrestable offence. However, if the subject has done something to warrant a background check and the background check resulted in him being identified as an illegal alien, he would be. Remember, in a court of law the police would have to show a valid reason for running the background check. Suspicion of the subject being an illegal would not be a valid reason.

Bob K
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59 posted 05-02-2010 01:49 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     You haven't read this law, Mike.  Failure to show acceptable Identification, including citizenship, under this law is cause for arrest.  I posted the law.  You apparently haven't availed yourself of the the chance to read it.

     It shouldn't be grounds for arrest, I agree with you.  It hasn't been grounds for arrest.  That changes with this law.

     If President Obama had suggested it, I'd still be upset.  I'm upset with him allowing drilling.  I'm upset with him not repealing The PATRIOT ACT. there are several things I don't enjoy about how he's running things.  If he said something that upset me about immigration, why would I suddenly change my tune and start approve of policies of his that I don't like?  You're simply not taking the data you have into account; you know better than that.

     Certainly I've had an odd life, Mike.  My hair will never be blond enough, however, because it's brown and gray at this point; and while my sister has blue eyes, mine are hazel except for one day in London when They were quite blue for an entire morning.  Both my wife and I were quite rattled by this; I'd never even heard of such a thing before.  Who knew?  Weird.

     And what's your reaction to the attempt on the part of the Democrats to bring up Immigration reform in front of congress this year?  You were railing about how Congress hasn't dealt with it.  Now, I'd be interested in knowing your reaction.

     I suspect you'd be against it, because the Republicans on the whole are against it, and probably for whatever reasons the Republicans are giving, but that's simply a guess.  After all, some Republicans seem to be for it.  But I suspect that you'd probably be against them.  Am I predicting badly or well here?


    
Grinch
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60 posted 05-02-2010 07:02 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Thanks Mike.

So everybody who is stopped by the police has a background check run on them to ensure that they’re legal. I don’t see an issue with that Bob, there’d only be an issue if they were stopping specific types of people based on race or colour or only running the checks on a specific racial profile, if everyone is checked where’s the discrimination?

I prefer the ID card idea, everyone carries one and if you don’t have one you’re detained until you can prove that you’re in the country legally.

.
Balladeer
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61 posted 05-02-2010 09:02 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I don’t see an issue with that Bob, there’d only be an issue if they were stopping specific types of people based on race or colour or only running the checks on a specific racial profile, if everyone is checked where’s the discrimination?

Exactly, grinch. That, however is the point Bob and others are disregarding.

Failure to show acceptable Identification, including citizenship, under this law is cause for arrest.  I posted the law.  You apparently haven't availed yourself of the the chance to read it.

Bob, I read the follow-up changes to the law to appease thoese who misinterpreted the meaning of the original. I've posted it here more than once but, since you must not have read it, I'll post it again.
The follow-on legislation approved Thursday also would change the law to specify that immigration-status questions would follow a law enforcement officer's stopping, detaining or arresting a person while enforcing another law.
Brewer's spokesman said that makes it clear that police cannnot question people just on the suspicion they're illegal immigrants.


My  reaction to the attempt on the part of the Democrats to bring up Immigration reform in front of congress this year?  Beats me. Who am I supposed to believe - democrats claiming to bring up immigration reform or Obama saying congress will not bring up immigration reform this year? Seems like they can't get their stories straight.
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62 posted 05-02-2010 09:25 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Is the proposed Immigration Reform about sealing the borders and enforcing current law or is it about Amnesty?
Local Rebel
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63 posted 05-02-2010 09:29 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

I don’t see an issue with that Bob, there’d only be an issue if they were stopping specific types of people based on race or colour or only running the checks on a specific racial profile, if everyone is checked where’s the discrimination?



quote:

TUCSON (KGUN9-TV) - Pima County's top lawman says he has no intention of enforcing Arizona's controversial crackdown on illegal immigration.  Sheriff Clarence Dupnik calls SB 1070 "racist," "disgusting," and "unnecessary."

Speaking Tuesday morning with KGUN9's Steve Nunez, Dupnik made it clear that while he will not comply with the provisions of the new law, nor will he let illegal immigrants go free.  "We're going to keep doing what we've been doing all along," Dupnik said.  "We're going to stop and detain these people for the Border Patrol."

The sheriff acknowledged that this course of action could get him hauled into court.  SB 1070 allows citizens to sue any law enforcement official who doesn't comply with the law.  But Dupnik told Nunez that SB 1070 would force his deputies to adopt racial profiling as an enforcement tactic, which Dupnik says could also get him sued. "So we're kind of in a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation. It's just a stupid law."

Dupnik had harsh words for anyone who thinks SB 1070 will not lead to racial profiling. "If I tell my people to go out and look for A, B, and C, they're going to do it. They'll find some flimsy excuse like a tail light that's not working  as a basis for a stop, which is a bunch of baloney."
http://www.kgun9.com/global/story.asp?s=12386648



quote:

Today, as the nation waits to see if Arizona Governor Jan Brewer will veto Senate Bill 1070 or allow it to pass into law, law enforcement professionals from around the country called the bill a threat to public safety during a telephonic press conference.  They warned that the bill, which would force police officers to arrest anyone they “suspect” to be undocumented, would impede their efforts to fight violent crime and that federal action, not state legislation, is the only way to truly fix our broken immigration system.



Speakers on the call echoed the sentiments of the Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police, which opposes S.B. 1070.  According to a statement released this week by the AACOP, “The provisions of the bill . . . will negatively affect the ability of law enforcement agencies across the state to fulfill their many responsibilities in a timely manner.  While AACOP recognizes immigration as a significant issue in Arizona, we remain strong in our belief that it is an issue most appropriately addressed at the federal level.”



These law enforcement leaders from across the nation urged other states not to follow the footsteps of the Arizona legislature, and called on Congress and the President to pass real immigration reform as soon as possible.



“This legislation clearly shows the need for federal action to address the issue of immigration,” George Gascón, chief of the San Francisco Police Department and former chief of the Mesa Police Department, said. “This unfunded mandate will strain underfunded police departments and increase their liability. It will have a catastrophic effect on policing and set back community policing efforts for decades."



“Addressing the porous national border and enforcement of federal law is the responsibility of our federal government,” stated Richard Myers, chief of the Colorado Springs Police Department. “Enacting local or state laws to compensate for the inadequacies of the national system merely shifts the burden to an already overwhelmed police community.  Almost every police department in the U.S. is struggling with shrinking resources and fewer police officers, and we’re still adjusting to the higher expectations on Homeland Security in the post-9/11 era.  This is an example of the worst kind of unfunded mandate to local police that would diminish our ability to provide basic, core services to our communities.”
http://www.educationnews.org/pr_releases/90056.html



I agree with an "ID" card but I don't think the proper place to be checking them is in the hands of the police -- I think it's with employers and schools.  A biometric Social Security Card -- however unpleasant sounding -- may be the only way to go here.
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64 posted 05-02-2010 09:53 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

What do you think should be done by the employers and schools when they find someone to be undocumented, L.R.? Should they turn them over to the feds for deportation?
Balladeer
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65 posted 05-02-2010 10:03 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LR, the sheriff's comments are a little outdated. He made them three days before the changes to the law were made clear to show that no one would be stopped for the sole purpose of checking immigration status. Aside from that, the sheriff's comments make little sense. He's going to keep doing what he has always been doing? Fine - nobody is telling him to do anything else. Dupnik told Nunez that SB 1070 would force his deputies to adopt racial profiling as an enforcement tactic No, it doesn't at all."If I tell my people to go out and look for A, B, and C, they're going to do it. They'll find some flimsy excuse like a tail light that's not working  as a basis for a stop, which is a bunch of baloney." Then don't tell your people to go out and look for A,B or C. SOunds like the sheriff was just looking for a little press coverage.

They warned that the bill, which would force police officers to arrest anyone they “suspect” to be undocumented,

No, it doesn't.


This is an example of the worst kind of unfunded mandate to local police that would diminish our ability to provide basic, core services to our communities.”

The bill changes nothing at all in the police officers' performance of their duties. There would simply be an additional check on a person's background whose actions would have caused a background check to be performed. The law is not unconstitutional, illegal or wrong. The only protests you see now have been orchestrated by the administration and carried out by groups Obama wants to inflame.


An ID card to be checked by employers and schools, instead of those evil policemen who are out there risking their lives for the ability to abuse as many people as possible? Great. When a man is found outside of a burining building with an empty can of gas in his hand, police could call his school or place of business to see if he is legal or not. SOunds good to me...
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66 posted 05-02-2010 12:33 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

By the sounds of it there’s going to be a high cost to this bill, checking every single person the police come into contact with is going to take time and put a strain on the agency supplying the checks, not to mention the inconvenience to legal citizens. Whatever system they use to make the background checks isn’t going to be perfect, there are likely to be delays that make the detention of perfectly legal citizens unavoidable. If the people of Arizona are willing to put up with the cost and the possible inconvenience of being detained until their status can be checked then I don’t see an issue – as long as everyone is treated in exactly the same way under this new law there is absolutely no discrimination taking place as far as I can see.

My only worry, and probably the worry of anyone who doesn’t fit the standard profile of your average legal American is that the law won’t be applied fairly. That the people being checked end up being only those who don’t fit a predefined profile – in that case clear discrimination is most definitely being applied – one set of individuals is being treated differently based on race, colour or ethnic appearance.

Is it unconstitutional?

You could argue either way, technically the federal government control all issue surrounding immigration but this biil, if applied evenly, could be argued to be simply a law enforcement issue that doesn’t affect the law surrounding the ingress of non-nationals into the country.

It’s definitely not as clear cut as the Californian case a while back and, if challenged, could go either way in my opinion.

If an ID card were introduced the whole thing would be a lot easier, it would be an offence, in and of itself, not to produce the card when asked by any law enforcement official. In addition you would need to present the card to obtain health care, social security and to open a bank account or enter into a contract of employment.

The downside would be that the ID system would apply to everyone regardless of race, colour or ethnic profile.

.
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67 posted 05-02-2010 12:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBLgSzJpOec&feature=player_embedded
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laYeI-9nPLU&feature=player_embedded#!
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69 posted 05-02-2010 03:21 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

What do you think should be done by the employers and schools when they find someone to be undocumented, L.R.? Should they turn them over to the feds for deportation?



Nope.  I think the employer should say -- "sorry, can't hire you until I can see some proper documentation."  or "sorry we can't enroll your child without proper documentation".
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70 posted 05-02-2010 03:36 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

The bill changes nothing at all in the police officers' performance of their duties.



Great, then scrap the bill.

quote:

There would simply be an additional check on a person's background whose actions would have caused a background check to be performed.



Like a neighbor complaining that their dog is barking too loud?

quote:

The law is not unconstitutional, illegal or wrong. The only protests you see now have been orchestrated by the administration and carried out by groups Obama wants to inflame.



Wow!  I was totally unaware that Texas Governor Rick Perry was one of Obama's minions -- when did that happen?

quote:

"I fully recognize and support a state's right and obligation to protect its citizens, but I have concerns with portions of the law passed in Arizona and believe it would not be the right direction for Texas," Perry said in a written statement.

"For example, some aspects of the law turn law enforcement officers into immigration officials by requiring them to determine immigration status during any lawful contact with a suspected alien, taking them away from their existing law enforcement duties
, which are critical to keeping citizens safe."

Rick Perry http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/29/texas-governor-arizona-immigration-law-right-texas/



quote:

LR, the sheriff's comments are a little outdated. He made them three days before the changes to the law were made clear to show that no one would be stopped for the sole purpose of checking immigration status.



Changing the word "contact" to "stop" doesn't really change anything Mike -- putting immigration into the hands of the police just makes the immigrant community less inclined to work with, much less, talk to the police.  That's dangerous.
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71 posted 05-02-2010 04:07 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     The Radical Right is unmasked here.

     They have no problem with increased government power and with loss of civil liberties.  They applaud it, as long as they believe that the civil liberties lost will be somebody else's, and as long as they believe that the people mandating the loss are good Republicans.  They have no problem with forcing a National ID card on the population, either of Arizona or, if necessary, the entire nation, if that's what it takes to control their fear of being overrun by Mexicans and undocumented aliens.

     I can only imagine what the Radical Right would have made of this bill had The President proposed it.
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72 posted 05-02-2010 04:12 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

By the sounds of it there’s going to be a high cost to this bill, checking every single person the police come into contact with is going to take time and put a strain on the agency supplying the checks, not to mention the inconvenience to legal citizens.

Incorrect, grinch. There is no additional cost. Right now, if you are stopped for speeding, for example, a check would be run on your license. You would be checked for having a valid license, for not having outstanding warrants, for not being wanted by police, and even for not being behind in child support payments. The dispatcher types in the license and all of this info comes out. This would just be another item checked at the same time....no additional work and no additional expense.
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73 posted 05-02-2010 04:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The bill changes nothing at all in the police officers' performance of their duties.

Great, then scrap the bill.

LR, it appears you may have learned English from one of those Arizona teachers! The change is in the information that comes back through the NCIC computer, not in anything the officer does in the performance of his duties.

"For example, some aspects of the law turn law enforcement officers into immigration officials by requiring them to determine immigration status during any lawful contact with a suspected alien, taking them away from their existing law enforcement duties
, which are critical to keeping citizens safe."


Apparently Rick Perry was in that same English class.


    There would simply be an additional check on a person's background whose actions would have caused a background check to be performed.

Like a neighbor complaining that their dog is barking too loud?


Believe me, I went on a lot of barking dog complaints. Not once was ID asked for. You advice the person involved that you received a complaint about their barking dog, or loud music, or whatever and they agree to take care of it. That's it. You want to paint the scenario of "Hey, mister! The neighbor says you have a dog barking too loud. Gimmee your ID!", go ahead but it's not valid.
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74 posted 05-02-2010 04:31 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
no additional work and no additional expense.


Sounds like a free lunch Mike - there’s always a cost.

quote:
They have no problem with forcing a National ID card on the population, either of Arizona or, if necessary, the entire nation, if that's what it takes to control their fear of being overrun by Mexicans and undocumented aliens.


Don’t you think that illegal immigrants are a problem Bob, and if so isn’t a national ID card a valid idea to address the issue?

.
 
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