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Protesting.....Lefty-style.

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Balladeer
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25 posted 04-29-2010 09:23 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What a difference a year makes....


Obama to Push Immigration Bill as One Priority
By JULIA PRESTON
Published: April 8, 2009

While acknowledging that the recession makes the political battle more difficult, President Obama plans to begin addressing the country’s immigration system this year, including looking for a path for illegal immigrants to become legal, a senior administration official said on Wednesday.
Mr. Obama will frame the new effort — likely to rouse passions on all sides of the highly divisive issue — as “policy reform that controls immigration and makes it an orderly system,” said the official, Cecilia Muñoz, deputy assistant to the president and director of intergovernmental affairs in the White House.

Mr. Obama plans to speak publicly about the issue in May, administration officials said, and over the summer he will convene working groups, including lawmakers from both parties and a range of immigration groups, to begin discussing possible legislation for as early as this fall.

Some White House officials said that immigration would not take precedence over the health care and energy proposals that Mr. Obama has identified as priorities. But the timetable is consistent with pledges Mr. Obama made to Hispanic groups in last year’s campaign.

He said then that comprehensive immigration legislation, including a plan to make legal status possible for an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants, would be a priority in his first year in office. Latino voters turned out strongly for Mr. Obama in the election.

“He intends to start the debate this year,” Ms. Muñoz said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/09/us/politics/09immig.html
Local Rebel
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26 posted 04-29-2010 03:48 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:


Who else to vote for? We fully expect for Crist to announce running as an independent. If he does, he will win.



Got it. Florida -- going for the white guy regardless ideological proclivities...
Denise
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27 posted 04-29-2010 04:08 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think it's way past time to stop seeing things through the race prism.
Balladeer
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28 posted 04-29-2010 04:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Apparently that's all people like LR can do, baseless zingers with no substance.

LR, your comment not only insults us, it also insults your intelligence.
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29 posted 04-29-2010 04:42 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     So, if Governor Brewer has no idea how to identify somebody who looks like an illegal immigrant by sight, Mike, how are you going to do it?  Or does the unconstitutionality of this sort of thing simply not a bother as long as you feel it comes from the Radical Right and as long as it targets a minority?  Everybody simply ought to smile and hand over their ID.

     This means, of course, that everybody in Arizona must suddenly have an ID that provides such information as citizenship and immigration status.  This new Arizona law apparently also provides that failure to produce proof of citizenship on request will lead to arrest.  This means that you not only must produce Identification, but proof of citizenship to walk the streets of Arizona.  That is a cliche out of every Nazi World War Two movie made in the thirties that I can Remember.  That last statement was hyperbole, Mike; don't get literal about it.

     So, Why should I spend my money to go on vacation or go to a convention in any city in Arizona?  The State is not only unfriendly to Illegals, it's unfriendly to Americans who don't want to have a passport or feel like they're risking getting arrested by traveling in some backward foreign country.  Why should I buy their products?  Why should I allow their citizens in my state without showing their passports in my state?  There is a certain amount of reciprocity involved in being a member of the "United" States of America.

     Near as I can tell, this new law is simply as spasm of racism against Latinos and Native Americans.  If more money is being spent on welfare and social services in Arizona these days, the place to look is the economy, which has thrown loads of additional folks out of work.  A lot of places in the country share the same problem, including, as I understand it, Florida and California.

     If you want to deal with the increased problem with crime, you need to deal with the drug problem.  More and more draconian punishment has not made that problem go away, it's only made the trade get more profitable.  That would be the law of supply and demand, wouldn't it?

     You could keep doing what we've been doing for 50 years and get more drug violence, if that's what you want.  You know what the results will be because we have loads of experience with doing that sort of thing.  Maybe it would be useful to try something more useful.  Legalize, standardize, stabilize the market and tax.  Use the income to fund treatment centers and to help fund health care.
  
Balladeer
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30 posted 04-29-2010 05:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

This new Arizona law apparently also...

Apparently? Do you know or not?

Near as I can tell, this new law is...

Near as you can tell? Do you know or not?
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31 posted 04-29-2010 10:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Do you know of any country, Bob, where one can go, as a visitor or as an immigrant, and not have to have proper identification available upon request?
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32 posted 04-29-2010 10:54 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Regarding the Tea Party and any candidates they may or may not support, I think it's important to remember that no candidate will agree with everyone on every issue. My personal criteria is to support the candidates who pledge to oppose big government and the Obama agenda, those who support free markets and oppose socialism, and those who pledge to fight to repeal Obamacare. I believe that most Tea Party participants have that same criteria.
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33 posted 04-30-2010 12:24 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

I think it's way past time to stop seeing things through the race prism.



quote:

Ever since the Tea Party phenomenon gathered steam last spring, it has been plagued by charges of racism. Placards at rallies have depicted President Barack Obama as a witch doctor, denounced his supposed plans for "white slavery," and likened Congress to a slave owner and the taxpayer to a "n----r." Opponents have seized on these examples as proof that Tea Partiers are angry white folks who can't abide having a black president. Supporters, on the other hand, claim that the hateful signs are the work of a small fringe and that they unfairly malign a movement that simply seeks to rein in big government. In the absence of empirical evidence to support either characterization, the debate has essentially deadlocked.

Until now, that is. A new survey by the University of Washington Institute for the Study of Ethnicity, Race & Sexuality offers fresh insight into the racial attitudes of Tea Party sympathizers. "The data suggests that people who are Tea Party supporters have a higher probability"25 percent, to be exact"of being racially resentful than those who are not Tea Party supporters," says Christopher Parker, who directed the study. "The Tea Party is not just about politics and size of government. The data suggests it may also be about race."

Surveyers asked respondents in California and a half dozen battleground states (like Michigan and Ohio) a series of questions that political scientists typically use to measure racial hostility. On each one, Tea Party backers expressed more resentment than the rest of the population, even when controlling for partisanship and ideology. When read the statement that "if blacks would only try harder, they could be just as well off as whites," 73 percent of the movement's supporters agreed, while only 33 percent of people who disapproved of the Tea Party agreed. Asked if blacks should work their way up "without special favors," as the Irish, Italians, and other groups did, 88 percent of supporters agreed, compared to 56 percent of opponents. The study revealed that Tea Party enthusiasts were also more likely to have negative opinions of Latinos and immigrants.

These results are bolstered by a recent New York Times/CBS News surveyfinding that white Tea Party supporters were more likely to believe that "the Obama administration favors blacks over whites" and that "too much has been made of the problems facing black people." The survey also showed that Tea Party sympathizers are whiter, older, wealthier, and more well-educated than the average American. They're "just as likely to be employed, and more likely to describe their economic situation as very or fairly good," according to a summary of the poll.

If Tea Party supporters are doing relatively fine, what are they so riled up about? These studies suggest that, at least in part, it's race. The country that the Tea Partiers grew up in is irrevocably changing. Last month, new demographic data showed that minority births are on the verge of outpacing white births. By 2050, Hispanics are expected to account for more than a quarter of the American population. The Tea Partiers "feel a loss like their status has been diminished," says David Bositis of the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, which examines issues of race. "If you listen to [their] language, it's always about 'taking our country back.' But it's really not taking the country back as is. It's taking the country back"as in time.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/236996



On the other hand -- David Duke is on the Tea Party side: http://vodpod.com/watch/3499960-david-duke-defends-the-tea-parties-from-charges-of-racism-why-theyre-just-like-him-
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34 posted 04-30-2010 12:39 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Apparently that's all people like LR can do, baseless zingers with no substance.



Yes, people like LR never bring data or facts to the table at all do they?  But, might I point out, the 'Zinger' is merely based on your prediction -- the punditry don't much think Crist can win:

quote:


Put yourself in the mind of Marco Rubio. You want to paint Crist and Meek as two peas in an Obama pod. But Obama isn't unpopular in Florida. So Meek takes the challenge: you bet I'm an Obama Democrat, he says. If Meek gets 80 to 85% of the Democratic vote, that's about 40% of the electorate -- a floor of about 30-32% of the overall vote.

The independent vote will be fairly small -- half of it is worth about 10 points of the statewide vote. As Steve Schale, Obama's campaign manager in Florida put it, "Even on its best day in November, NPA and minor party voters will probably only make up 18% of the electorate, so even if Crist gets 50% of the vote, he only nets 9 points of total statewide vote." http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/04/the-new-math-in-florida/39611/



Personally, I can't speak for my State.  If you think you can speak better for yours I think you're literally only holding on to the elephant's leg and declaring it a tree.

quote:

LR, your comment not only insults us, it also insults your intelligence.



My intelligence is so often insulted here -- why shouldn't I join right in?  Now really Mike -- you didn't say you were supporting Crist -- you merely predicted Florida would -- are you Florida?
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35 posted 04-30-2010 12:41 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Wow! Robert Byrd should be a tea-party executive, then!

The administration and it's news lackeys have got to portray the tea-partiers as racists. They don't really have a choice. It's a great dodge to not discuss the actual issues the tea party is against. Just scream "You hate him because he's black!" and ignore everything else.

Denise, I'm ashamed of you for being such a racist!
Local Rebel
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36 posted 04-30-2010 12:51 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Yes, the blogosphere, media, and these forums are completely devoid of any discussion of "the" issues.

We've never talked about healthcare, the economy, the bank bailouts, the stimulus package, immigration, tax cuts, ......
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37 posted 04-30-2010 02:47 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Here the relevant part of the text, Mike.  I qualified my opinion because I'm not a legal scholar, and I'm not a judge.  I don't see anything in these parts that actually says how you can figure out that somebody is likely to be an illegal alien, though.  No doubt, you will point that out to me, should you be able to find one.

     You will notice any number of places where the authors of the Bill (FAIR, and some of their lawyers) make a point of saying that race or color are not to be used as means of identifying or sole means of identifying illegal aliens.  You will also notice that they fail to identify any means of actually making such an identification for the officers while laying them open to suit by citizens who are under no obligation to subscribe to the racial and color line limitations in deciding to bring their suit.  It will be a merry time all around.

     For those who claim that they want a smaller and less intrusive government, support of this bill exposes the lie behind that claim.  This bill forces the government and its police powers firmly into the lives of citizens, and leaves those who defend it trying to say that we shouldn't mind the intrusion.

     Right.

     I see the part where any citizen can sue any law officer for not arresting somebody that the citizen thinks is likely to be an illegal alien, and where the state will have to bear the cost of that.  How much do you think that will cost the State of Arizona every year, Mike?  How much time do you think that will tie up police officers?  How much time do you thing that will mean that officers will have to worry about illegal aliens and not about breaking and entering and murder and robbery and traffic stops?

     Here's the place to find the whole bill.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf

     And this is the place where it discusses the part the relevant pieces.

B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON, EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION. A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE. 2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE. 3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL
IDENTIFICATION. 4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES
BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.
-1-S.B. 1070
1 C. IF AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IS 2 CONVICTED OF A VIOLATION OF STATE OR LOCAL LAW, ON DISCHARGE FROM 3 IMPRISONMENT OR ON THE ASSESSMENT OF ANY MONETARY OBLIGATION THAT IS IMPOSED, 4 THE UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT OR THE UNITED STATES 5 CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION SHALL BE IMMEDIATELY NOTIFIED.
6 D. NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER LAW, A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY MAY 7 SECURELY TRANSPORT AN ALIEN WHO THE AGENCY HAS RECEIVED VERIFICATION IS 8 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES AND WHO IS IN THE AGENCY'S CUSTODY TO 9 A FEDERAL FACILITY IN THIS STATE OR TO ANY OTHER POINT OF TRANSFER INTO
10 FEDERAL CUSTODY THAT IS OUTSIDE THE JURISDICTION OF THE LAW ENFORCEMENT 11 AGENCY. A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY SHALL OBTAIN JUDICIAL AUTHORIZATION BEFORE 12 SECURELY TRANSPORTING AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES 13 TO A POINT OF TRANSFER THAT IS OUTSIDE OF THIS STATE.
14 E. EXCEPT AS PROVIDED IN FEDERAL LAW, OFFICIALS OR AGENCIES OF THIS 15 STATE AND COUNTIES, CITIES, TOWNS AND OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISIONS OF THIS 16 STATE MAY NOT BE PROHIBITED OR IN ANY WAY BE RESTRICTED FROM SENDING, 17 RECEIVING OR MAINTAINING INFORMATION RELATING TO THE IMMIGRATION STATUS, 18 LAWFUL OR UNLAWFUL, OF ANY INDIVIDUAL OR EXCHANGING THAT INFORMATION WITH ANY 19 OTHER FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY FOR THE FOLLOWING OFFICIAL 20 PURPOSES:
21 1. DETERMINING ELIGIBILITY FOR ANY PUBLIC BENEFIT, SERVICE OR LICENSE 22 PROVIDED BY ANY FEDERAL, STATE, LOCAL OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS 23 STATE. 24 2. VERIFYING ANY CLAIM OF RESIDENCE OR DOMICILE IF DETERMINATION OF 25 RESIDENCE OR DOMICILE IS REQUIRED UNDER THE LAWS OF THIS STATE OR A JUDICIAL 26 ORDER ISSUED PURSUANT TO A CIVIL OR CRIMINAL PROCEEDING IN THIS STATE.
27 3. IF THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN, DETERMINING WHETHER THE PERSON IS IN 28 COMPLIANCE WITH THE FEDERAL REGISTRATION LAWS PRESCRIBED BY TITLE II, CHAPTER 29 7 OF THE FEDERAL IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACT. 30 4. PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373 AND 8 UNITED STATES 31 CODE SECTION 1644.
32 F. THIS SECTION DOES NOT IMPLEMENT, AUTHORIZE OR ESTABLISH AND SHALL 33 NOT BE CONSTRUED TO IMPLEMENT, AUTHORIZE OR ESTABLISH THE REAL ID ACT OF 2005 34 (P.L. 109-13, DIVISION B; 119 STAT. 302), INCLUDING THE USE OF A RADIO 35 FREQUENCY IDENTIFICATION CHIP.
36 G. A PERSON WHO IS A LEGAL RESIDENT OF THIS STATE MAY BRING AN ACTION 37 IN SUPERIOR COURT TO CHALLENGE ANY OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A 38 COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE THAT ADOPTS 39 OR IMPLEMENTS A POLICY OR PRACTICE THAT LIMITS OR RESTRICTS THE ENFORCEMENT 40 OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY FEDERAL 41 LAW. IF THERE IS A JUDICIAL FINDING THAT AN ENTITY HAS VIOLATED THIS 42 SECTION, THE COURT SHALL ORDER THAT THE ENTITY PAY A CIVIL PENALTY OF NOT 43 LESS THAN ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS AND NOT MORE THAN FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR 44 EACH DAY THAT THE POLICY HAS REMAINED IN EFFECT AFTER THE FILING OF AN ACTION 45 PURSUANT TO THIS SUBSECTION.
-2-  
Balladeer
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38 posted 04-30-2010 09:56 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You will notice any number of places where the authors of the Bill (FAIR, and some of their lawyers) make a point of saying that race or color are not to be used as means of identifying or sole means of identifying illegal aliens.

Sounds reasonable to me. Sounds like the father taking his children out for ice cream that Obama refers to might just be safe from such harrassment, doesn't it?  What WOULD constitute a reason to ask for ID? How about if they are doing something else that would invite police suspicion or intervention? I can think of numerous possibilities. Citizenship verification would simply be an additional step. Aside from that, what about periodic checks on businesses who hire aliens? Is there something wrong with checking the status of the workers to make sure they are in the country legally? There was a recent case days ago where around 300, I think, people were fired due to their illegal status and their jobs were filled in hours by Americans looking for work, The old excuse that they (illegals) do jobs Americans won't do doesn't fly any more in this economy.

For those who claim that they want a smaller and less intrusive government, support of this bill exposes the lie behind that claim.

Well, that certainly doen't include you, does it, Bob? In that case you should be fully supportive of this bill.

I see the part where any citizen can sue any law officer for not arresting somebody that the citizen thinks is likely to be an illegal alien, and where the state will have to bear the cost of that.  How much do you think that will cost the State of Arizona every year, Mike?  

Can you point that out to me, Bob? If I think Bobby is an illegal alien, I can sue the police if they don't arrest him? Do you want to recheck that statement??

What I always find interesting is the the police are always brutish, unethical, law-disregarding bullies and thugs in some minds. In this case you automatically jump to the assumption that the police will start going out and rounding up anyone with darker skin or wearing a sombrero. You liken their actions that they haven't even committed yet to the Gestapo. WHere does this fear, hatred, and one-sidedness come from? At least with Obama I can partly understand, being a black growing up in the sixties. Where does YOUR overwhelming distrust come from, Bob? You are quick to condemn actions not even yet committed simply based on your predictions and assumptions of what will happen, in your opinion. By and large, policemen are fairly good guys, with the same attitudes normal people do. They have lives and families and want their communities safe for their children to walk around in. They belong to the PTA and everything! Sure, there will always be a bad apple or two who abuse their power but that's the same in any organization and the percentage of them is microscopic. They walk around doing their jobs and they get cursed, spat on, ridiculed and villified by the press and people like you just for doing their jobs.  Perhaps if you were to don the blues and ride in a squad car for a while and be involved in the situations they encounter every day you might gain a little appreciation for what they do and what they have to tolerate, which they do. Instead you sit in they safety of your home, thanks to them, and paint scenarios of them goose-stepping down the streets, intent on abusing the largest amount of decent- ordinary citizens they can find. It's really a shame....

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39 posted 04-30-2010 10:20 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Arizona is in a crisis atmosphere. Last year almost a quarter of a million illegals were caught trying to cross the border. Estimates are that they catch around 1 out of 4. That means the better part of a million got through. Last year 1.4 million pounds of illegal drugs were seized. Phoenix is the kidnapping capital of the world, which is interesting because kidnapping has never really been the crime of choice among Americans, disregarding the Lindberg baby. Where IS it the crime of choice? Central and South America...and Mexico. Would it be a stretch to imagine this rash of kidnappings could be being conducted by aliens? WOuld it be a further stretch to imagine that a good portion of these aliens may be illegal? Wouldn't it be a reasonable idea to search them out, before they kidnap or murder YOUR wife or child?

Our procedures are laughable. We make it a crime to enter the country illegally. If illegals are caught, they are sent back. If they are not caught, they can apply for and receive social aid. Their status is not to be questioned. How ludicrous is that? Where else in the world would you find laws as ridiculous as that?

I don't imagine decent Americans, even legal aliens having a problem with this law. Indeed, over 70% of the entire country supports it, by the latest nationwide poll. The people who are against it are either illegal aliens, the Mexican government, or prima donnas, screaming "You talking to ME???" If I lived in Phoenix or ElPaso, I would welcome this action designed to make it a safer place.

Obama is against it because (1) it deals with minorities and (2) it shows that the states have to take matters in their own hands because the federal government won't. He made all kinds of promises to deal with this issue in his first year in order to get the Latin vote and now, a year and a half later, not only has he done nothing, he now claims that Congress has worked "too hard" this year to deal with it. He doesn't like for his broken campaign promises and inaction to be exposed.  Arizona is basically saying, "Ok, you won't deal with it? We will. It's OUR cities, OUR murder and kidnapping rate, drugs smuggled in to OUR streets to be sold to OUR children, and we will take action if you won't."

So go ahead, folks and don't buy Arizona Diamondback t-shirts. Don't drink the Arizona Iced Tea, which is made in New York. Get the pathetic barbie-doll twins Sharpeton and Jackson to organize boycotts or do whatever they do while screaming racism and then fading into the background when their charges are revealed to be unfounded. Do it all. The majority of the people of Arizona don't care....neither do I.
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40 posted 04-30-2010 10:44 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Arizona lawmakers OK several changes to immigration law
Reported by: ABC15.com staff, wire reports

Last Update: 5:40 am
PHOENIX -- Arizona lawmakers have approved several changes to the recently passed sweeping law targeting illegal immigration.
If Gov. Jan Brewer supports the changes, they will go into effect at the same time as the new law, 90 days from now.

The current law requires local and state law enforcement to question people about their immigration status if there's reason to suspect they're in the country illegally, and makes it a state crime to be in the United States illegally.
One change to the bill strengthens restrictions against using race or ethnicity as the basis for questioning and inserts those same restrictions in other parts of the law.

Changes to the bill language will actually remove the word "solely" from the sentence, "The attorney general or county attorney shall not investigate complaints that are based solely on race, color or national origin."

Another change replaces the phrase "lawful contact" with "lawful stop, detention or arrest" to apparently clarify that officers don't need to question a victim or witness about their legal status.

A third change specifies that police contact over violations for local civil ordinances can trigger questioning on immigration status.
The law's sponsor, Republican Sen. Russell Pearce, characterized the race and ethnicity changes as clarifications "just to take away the silly arguments and the games, the dishonesty that's been played."

The follow-on legislation approved Thursday also would change the law to specify that immigration-status questions would follow a law enforcement officer's stopping, detaining or arresting a person while enforcing another law.
Brewer's spokesman said that makes it clear that police cannnot question people just on the suspicion they're illegal immigrants.
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/phoenixmetro   /central/story/Arizona-lawmakers-OK-several-changes-to/qNpxW7Jonkm9shejhnkiSQ.cspx

So, if the father takes his kids out for an ice cream and they decide to rob the ice cream vendor, THEN he could be asked for i.d.  Anything unreasonable there???
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41 posted 04-30-2010 01:17 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Why is it that there is so much buraucracry. Why can't everyone be legal.  That way we won't be using them like slaves where some who know the right poeple get special benifits, while others don't.  IT ius really sad because all the hatred has lead to many problems.  

I mean these poeple are refugees fleeing mexico and it's violence. So sad.  

I mean if it is illegal it is illegal, but unfortunatly this whole situation has turned into a type of slavery.  

I would rather make it easier for mexicans to be here legally.

Juju

-Juju

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Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

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42 posted 04-30-2010 03:28 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

The follow-on legislation approved Thursday also would change the law to specify that immigration-status questions would follow a law enforcement officer's stopping, detaining or arresting a person while enforcing another law.
Brewer's spokesman said that makes it clear that police cannnot question people just on the suspicion they're illegal immigrants.



Which makes the law superfluous to current law Mike.  Police in every state have already been able to do just that.  The fact that the AZ legislature has had to make the changes in order to save face and avoid a Constitutional battle should tell you that what we've been telling you is in fact, factual.

quote:

I don't imagine decent Americans, even legal aliens having a problem with this law. Indeed, over 70% of the entire country supports it, by the latest nationwide poll.



Facts first -- Gallup says 39% of Americans favor the Arizona law while 30% oppose it. Of those who have heard of the law (those who watch more television than Dancing With the Stars and Project Runway) 51% favor SB1070 while 39% oppose it (and contrary to what you might be inclined to believe Mike -- about 50% of Democrats favor the bill). The 70% number you've heard refers to Arizona residents.

quote:

The people who are against it are either illegal aliens, the Mexican government, or prima donnas, screaming "You talking to ME???" If I lived in Phoenix or ElPaso, I would welcome this action designed to make it a safer place.



You left out those who prefer preserving the Constitution as I hear so many Tea Partiers claiming -- ever heard of the 14th amendment to the Constitution?  Try reading it.
Local Rebel
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43 posted 04-30-2010 03:42 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Juju -- suggested reading http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/04/19-8
Bob K
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44 posted 04-30-2010 05:26 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:


G. A PERSON WHO IS A LEGAL RESIDENT OF THIS STATE MAY BRING AN ACTION 37 IN SUPERIOR COURT TO CHALLENGE ANY OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A 38 COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE THAT ADOPTS 39 OR IMPLEMENTS A POLICY OR PRACTICE THAT LIMITS OR RESTRICTS THE ENFORCEMENT 40 OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY FEDERAL 41 LAW. IF THERE IS A JUDICIAL FINDING THAT AN ENTITY HAS VIOLATED THIS 42 SECTION, THE COURT SHALL ORDER THAT THE ENTITY PAY A CIVIL PENALTY OF NOT 43 LESS THAN ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS AND NOT MORE THAN FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR 44 EACH DAY THAT THE POLICY HAS REMAINED IN EFFECT AFTER THE FILING OF AN ACTION 45 PURSUANT TO THIS SUBSECTION.



     It's right there, Mike,  

     If you'd care to read the rest of the bill, I provided the link for that as well.  The state of Arizona has to pay the court costs for the officers involved, which is understandable, AND for those people who bring the suit.  You can hunt through the bill yourself for that one.  You didn't read the section I sent you well enough to see the section I was talking about.

     Your comments about larger government are misplaced.  I've had quarrels with you about the intrusiveness of government into the private lives of citizens, and I've taken the side of less government involvement in the private lives of its citizens, at least in terms of civil rights and privacy.  You are the one who has been consistently in favor of the government being allowed to have more control.  You even asked me where the government had affected me when I expressed upset at what I thought was intrusive search aboard a bus a few years back.  It was fine with you.  Suspension of habeas was fine for you.  Warrantless and extra-legal wire-taps were fine with you., apparently, as long as they were done by a Republican administration.

     They are not and were never fine with me, regardless of administration.

     Torture was fine with you as an extension of government policy.  It is not and never was with me.

     I am not okay with more intrusive government.

     I am in favor of a constitutional and democratic government.  That means a government that acts within constitutional limits.  Having a state government usurp the powers of the Federal government is not within that  range..

     Your comments about my thoughts about the police are more of your attempts at mind-reading.  Should I want my opinions expressed, perhaps you could allow me to express them, not somebody like yourself, who has got them wrong.  Incorrect.  Not right.  Distorted.  Dislocated. Misstated.  Malformed.  Twisted.  


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45 posted 04-30-2010 06:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, my comments about your thoughts are logically derived  from your comments. You are the one who brought up "gestapo" and "police state".  There is indeed something twisted but it's not my interpretation of your words.

Which makes the law superfluous to current law Mike.  Police in every state have already been able to do just that.

Actually, that's not accurate, LR. The way the bill now states, any person who is stopped on suspicion of comming a crime, any person who is arrested, or any person pulled over for a violation is asked to present i.d. The officer relays it to the dispatcher who checks the information on NCIC, ACIC,  or whatever they use in Arizona, for outstanding warrants or criminal records. That is as it has always been. Now, however, another check has been added, the person's citizenship status. That's it. It's no interaction between the policeman and the subject at all. If the check produced outstanding warrants, the subject would be arrested. If then check now reveals illegal alien status, the person will be arrested. With the exception of that extra step, there is absolutely no difference to the way things have always been done. Do you have a problem with that?

Obama does. He paints scenarios out of the twilight zone, without even knowing what he's talking about. He fuels a fire of racism, promotes civil unrest, makes ficticious charges and the usual suspects like Sharpeton, Jackson, and the like who make fortunes by screaming race eagerly jump on the bandwagon. People, as we see here, are quick to jump up and declare that the Constitution has been ripped to shreds. Even the idiot democrat congressman calls for a boycott of his own state! It's all smoke and mirrors. Arizona is doing nothing wrong - except pointing out that the feds have done nothing at all.
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46 posted 04-30-2010 07:27 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     This Washington Post article speaks of the same problems with policing that I mentioned in my comments.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/29/AR2010042904970.html?wpisrc=nl_politics&sid=ST2010042905051

     And rather than simply excerpt in words and phrases from my comments, would you actually care to put them in context as well, or is that simply too inconvenient for you, possibly because it shows exactly how much you are taking those words out of their proper context.

     Having police on the streets of the united states ask from people's papers is like world war II movies depicting police states and Gestapo raids.  You suggest that I'm calling American police that sort of thing.  That is taking me out of context.  It also is a misrepresentation of what I've said, and the spirit in which I've said it.  Are you telling me that you literally cannot tell the difference?

     If you say so, I will believe you, really.

     But laws like this put good American cops in a bad position.  If they stay on the force, they must decide if they can tolerate enforcing these laws.  The Washington Post article talks about some reasons why at least some of those cops think it's a bad idea.  I agree with them. You cannot tell if a person is illegal or not by looking at them.  Your duties as an officer may well be compromised if you must put a check through on every person you detain in regard to some other violation, allowing other cases to go unsolved and even uninvestigated.

     The public seems unwilling to pay for a large number of new police, who, at any rate, might be better used in doing the ordinary jobs of policing anyway.  I've never met a policeman who felt he had a lot of spare time.  Perhaps you have.  The ones I've known were always running behind on paperwork and were always hustling to follow up on calls.  Almost always they had a decent relationship with the folks they had in custody, friendly though a bit distant, and often with a lot of empathy.

     They would suffer a great deal from being pushed into the sort of position that this new law would force them into with the public that they serve.  I always had the sense that the relationship that they had with the public was very important to them, and that they mostly really liked feeling like honest protectors.  The folks that I knew who weren't like this were few and unusual, and the rest of the cops might have accepted them as fellow officers, but they were also a bit cautious around them.

     They used to bring in a lot of mental patients to the psych Emergency room at one of the mental hospitals where I worked, and they were occasional patients at others for both psych problems and, more frequently, drug and alcohol problems.  Often their spouses had issues, and I found them all good people.

     Please don't put words in my mouth when you only think you understand me and my experience.  

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47 posted 04-30-2010 11:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Having police on the streets of the united states ask from people's papers is like world war II movies depicting police states and Gestapo raids.

....which means you believe that's what the police would be doing.

The State is not only unfriendly to Illegals, it's unfriendly to Americans who don't want to have a passport or feel like they're risking getting arrested by traveling in some backward foreign country.

Wow...the state is unfriendly to illegals! Ain't that a shame, Bob. We should extend the hand of friendship to all who break the law, I assume you must believe. A spokesman for one of the Mexican groups said today on the radio that the new law was unfair to illegals. Wow, once more. You two should get together. Do you feel all Americans who are in Arizona will get arrested if they don't carry a passport? Really?

Near as I can tell, this new law is simply as spasm of racism against Latinos and Native Americans.

That's as near as you can tell because that's what Obama tells you to believe. The governor has said from the beginning that scenario would not be occuring. They have even written it a different way so that even democrats can understand it. But Obama cries out racism and all of the minions who know nothing about the bill join in unison to repeat whatever  he says. Obama says racist and the crowd cries out racism! Obama tells of the poor fellow and his ice-cream seeking kids getting hassled and the crowd screams out FOUL! Obama is the master puppeteer and guess who the puppets are?

There is nothing wrong with the law or it's implementation. Obama is chagrined because it forces the administration to acknowledge they have done nothing with regards to illegal immigration. Instead of an acknowledgement of an obvious  fact, Obama says the law "will be monitored" and Congress is too tired to deal with illegals this year.  Instead of sending SWAT teams to a place where the police are being creamed with rocks and bottles, he sends them to tea-party rallies where no more than a handful of peaceful old people can even be see in the videos showing SWAT teams deployed and snipers on the rooftops.

THIS is your man? You can have him.
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48 posted 04-30-2010 11:27 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The Washington post article was apparently written before the changes were made clear or else they disregarded them...but they DID give Shakira top billing for her opposition to it. Hey, if a pop singer is against it, it MUST be horrible!
Bob K
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49 posted 05-01-2010 01:14 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

quote:

     Having police on the streets of the united states ask from people's papers is like world war II movies depicting police states and Gestapo raids.

....which means you believe that's what the police would be doing.



     Meaning, if you'd actually read the piece of the bill you questioned me about earlier, and which I quoted for you exactly and for the second time, this is what the police may well be forced to do or be sued at government expense.  The government is forced to pay for the defense of the police, and for the cost of the lawsuit against them as well as whatever judgement the courts may levy.  

    
quote:

The State is not only unfriendly to Illegals, it's unfriendly to Americans who don't want to have a passport or feel like they're risking getting arrested by traveling in some backward foreign country.

Wow...the state is unfriendly to illegals! Ain't that a shame, Bob. We should extend the hand of friendship to all who break the law, I assume you must believe. A spokesman for one of the Mexican groups said today on the radio that the new law was unfair to illegals. Wow, once more. You two should get together. Do you feel all Americans who are in Arizona will get arrested if they don't carry a passport? Really?



     Actually, Mike, you do seem to make a lot of assumptions.

     One of them is that everybody who is accused of breaking the law seems to be guilty and deserves something other than a hand of friendship.  I would suggest that the laws in this country mandate at least the assumption of innocence.  That's what the constitution says, even if you seem to be taking it as some sort of misprint.  That's the problem with calling them illegals in the first place.  That's the problem with trying to identify illegals, since they are not identifiable visually from the rest of the population, and running everyone who comes in contact with the police is going to take time away from research needed for identity checks on murderers and rapists and burglars.  Even from speeders and drunk drivers and folks with need for a warrant search.  Apparently, you figure that cops should put everything else at the back of the line, and let this stuff clog up the system.  Every criminal in Arizona must be willing to pitch in and give you a party.

     I don't think that every American who goes to Arizona will get tossed in prison.  

      I do think that everybody who isn't from Arizona is at risk of being imprisoned if they don't have documentation with them that states where they were born and what their citizenship is.  If you've read the law, you should be too.  Police officers are required to arrest everybody who cannot produce appropriate identification, and many of us are not in the habit of carrying birth certificates with us, or our passports.  Arizona auto licenses are good for ID, but that's only because they are required to have citizenship on the license.  That means that I'm essentially being treated as a member of a foreign Country if I go to Arizona, and I must produce evidence of my citizenship if asked or face arrest on the spot.  I have decided I will not develop an interest in going to Arizona while the law is in force.  Maybe I'll look too illegal for the people there.  Maybe they won't think my beard is American enough clearly a dead give-away, or my eyes won't be blue enough.  I'm willing to carry my passport when I go to Europe, but that's really a whole bunch of foreign countries.  And once I'm in Europe, they don't ask to see my passport as long as I'm traveling inside the European Union.

     Of course, they don't have a common border with Arizona; in that case, they might have had to reconsider.


quote:

Near as I can tell, this new law is simply as spasm of racism against Latinos and Native Americans.

That's as near as you can tell because that's what Obama tells you to believe. The governor has said from the beginning that scenario would not be occurring. They have even written it a different way so that even democrats can understand it. But Obama cries out racism and all of the minions who know nothing about the bill join in unison to repeat whatever  he says. Obama says racist and the crowd cries out racism! Obama tells of the poor fellow and his ice-cream seeking kids getting hassled and the crowd screams out FOUL! Obama is the master puppeteer and guess who the puppets are?



     If President Obama said it was racist, you'd have to show me where.  I haven't seen it.

     Despite my disagreements with President Obama, including my most recent disagreement with him about drilling for oil, you seem to think that I am a robot.  Tell you what, You tell me what things you disagreed with President Bush about and I'll tell you what I disagree with President Obama about, and we'll look at both lists.  Let's see who's the true believer, shall we?  Unless you'd rather simply let the matter drop without actually pushing it further.  You could start with five and then I could start with five and we could keep going?

     I still believe the law is a spasm of racism.  It is directed at Mexicans, Hispanics and Native Americans.  It cannot help but be.  Whether the Governor feels it's a fair law or not, she still is unable to specify how one identifies somebody who shows the likelihood of being an Illegal alien, and the constitutionality of arresting people for not displaying identification on demand is dubious.  You can be asked if you're a driver, but that's because you're exercising a privilege, and not a right, and one of the conditions for exercising that privilege is carrying of license and registration with you.  Otherwise, you can be asked what your name is, but so far as I know, you don't have to show legal identification proving that or papers showing your address.  If I'm wrong about that, please tell me the law that contradicts that information.  I'd like to know.

quote:

There is nothing wrong with the law or it's implementation. Obama is chagrined because it forces the administration to acknowledge they have done nothing with regards to illegal immigration. Instead of an acknowledgement of an obvious  fact, Obama says the law "will be monitored" and Congress is too tired to deal with illegals this year.  Instead of sending SWAT teams to a place where the police are being creamed with rocks and bottles, he sends them to tea-party rallies where no more than a handful of peaceful old people can even be see in the videos showing SWAT teams deployed and snipers on the rooftops.



     If there was nothing wrong with the law or its implementation, why did they rush through a bunch of amendments so quickly, Mike?  There were points in the law that they knew that had to slap some bandaids on pronto, otherwise there would be problems even more quickly than there seem to be now.  That's why.

     President Obama did in fact give a much too weak response to the cries for strong Federal action on immigration laws.  Fortunately, the Democratic Congress was a bit more active and The President seems to be coming along.  At this point there seems to be some legislation in the works and at least the framework for legislation set up.

     Now it's the Republicans who are saying that they don't want to have any Immigration reform now.  To be fair, there's a split in the Republican party on the subject which the Democrats are seriously thrilled by.  It appears to be a real political winner for them, and if they can push hard enough for real political immigration reform before the election, it's entirely possible the Republicans will fall on each other and rend each other apart.

     Demanding Congress do something on the federal level on the one hand, then sabotaging it on the other.  It should be a very interesting set of talking points about the Democrats not doing it soon enough and doing it all wrong, and we should wait until after the election when hopefully there are enough Republicans in Office that we can forget about the subject entirely.  Sort of like health care and financial reform.  SSDD.

 
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