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Passions in Poetry

Tea Party Flop?

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Denise
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75 posted 04-25-2010 12:25 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

This was the latest poll after passage that I could find:

quote:

In terms of Election 2010, 52% say theyíd vote for a candidate who favors repeal over one who does not. Forty-one percent (41%) would cast their vote for someone who opposes repeal.

Not surprisingly, Republicans overwhelmingly favor repeal while most Democrats are opposed. Among those not affiliated with either major party, 59% favor repeal, and 35% are against it.

Most senior citizens (59%) also favor repeal. Earlier, voters over 65 had been more opposed to the health care plan than younger adults. Seniors use the health care system more than anyone else.


http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content /politics/current_events/healthcare/march_2010/55_favor_repeal_of_health_care_bill


Do you have a link to a poll showing different results, Grinch? I couldn't find anything.

I don't think we have to worry about the Tea Party members splitting the Republican vote. I think most are intelligent enough to realize that doing so would only help the Democrats.
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76 posted 04-25-2010 01:08 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Do you have a link to a poll showing different results, Grinch? I couldn't find anything.


Thereís oodles of them Denise Ė you must be looking in the wrong places.

For instance, Gallup conducted a poll the day after the bill passed that reported that 49% of respondents said that the passing of the bill was a good thing as opposed to 40% who said it wasnít.

Your poll figures are interesting though, do you think that the GOP will campaign aggressively for repeal? I hope they don't, I think itíd be a really bad move, especially as they have no credible replacement.

The tea partiers?

They were always going to vote Republican Denise, now a few of them will vote for independents when what the GOP really need is to strengthen their base and capture swing votes from the Democrats. I think the Republicans will struggle in November unless they soften their approach to attract more moderates.

.
Denise
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77 posted 04-25-2010 01:37 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

This one was taken one week after passage of the bill:
http://www. gallup.com/poll/127037/Americans-Remain-Concerned-Costs-Healthcare-Bill.aspx?utm_source=tagrss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_term=Politics

I hope the Republicans will run a strong campaign on Repeal and Replace and offer a better alternative that actually addresses the problems without creating more problems as Obamacare does.

I think it would be a mistake for Republicans to go moderate. I think they will do better if they represent more closely the principles of their constituents and, as it stands now, Independents are leaning more heavily toward Republicans, without their going more moderate.
Denise
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78 posted 04-25-2010 01:58 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Here's the Left's version of a Tea Party:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gJFD6FcGSs&feature=player_embedded#!
Denise
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79 posted 04-25-2010 02:23 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

And one of the violence that the Left always ascribes to the Right. I didn't see any of this at any of the Tea Parties:
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/immigration/immigration_protest_small_riot_042310
Balladeer
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80 posted 04-25-2010 03:50 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Please share a few of the "oodles" of polls that you refer to, grinch.
Grinch
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81 posted 04-25-2010 05:05 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Please share a few of the "oodles" of polls that you refer to, grinch.


Why?

Seriously Mike I donít see the point, Iíve already explained that I donít think individual polls on specific topics tells us anything about the will of Ďwe the peopleí so how exactly would offering a bunch of poll results augment or strengthen that position?

.
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82 posted 04-25-2010 06:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You're the one to make the claim that recent polls suggest the majority of Americans are in favor of the health care bill. You're the one to claim "oodles" of them. If you didn't think those statements were worthy of mention, why did you? Now that you're asked to verify your claim you can't or won't, hiding behind a claim that they are unimportant. Is it that hard to just admit you misspoke? You have certainly made enough comments about me saying things I stated I couldn't back up or verify, or "making up" facts to fit my argument. This "wiggling" is a new side of you.
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83 posted 04-25-2010 06:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I said that polls aren't very useful when it comes to determining the will of the people where multiple issues are concerned.

I've already explained that I don't think individual polls on specific topics tells us anything about the will of  we the people

I didn't say polls are useless Mike, you must have misread my post.


Guess I'm still misreading. You don't believe polls are indicative of the will of the people where multiple issues are concerned, you don't believe polls on specific topics tell us anything about the will of we the people, and you don't believe polls are useless. Can you explain that...or does that generate another "why"?

Bob K
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84 posted 04-25-2010 10:39 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     When you ask about the will of "We The People," you're on very difficult ground indeed.  You need to define who, exactly, "We the People" is before you can measure it, and in that case you will probably run into a brick wall, Mike.  Your concept of that group and mine may be very different.

     Does "We the People" mean the constitutionally defined   voters, meaning men who own property, and counting black slaves as three fifths of a person apiece and excluding women and men under 21?  Or does it mean everybody in the country, that is, "public opinion?"  Or does it mean current voters?  Or does it mean something else?  The Democrats typically seek to define this group more inclusively, the Republicans less inclusively over recent years.  Under Aaron Burr in New York, immigrants were very much a factor, and were given voting rights very quickly.  In the Civil War, much to the shame of the Democrats, they sought to exclude many of the freed slaves.

     Today, Republicans seek to exclude as many new voters as they can by suppression of efforts to get new voters registered while Democrats typically tend to favor Motor/voter laws and Voter registration drives.  Each, presumably, defines "We the people" in ways that must fit their actions, right?

     So who are these "We the People" folks, Mike, whose will you'd want us to measure?  

     If you measure them one way, you'll get one set of data, if you measure them another, you'll get another set of data, and the folks in charge of setting that definition more or less control in advance the outcome of the poll.  You'd have to find some method which everybody agreed upon to define the group whose will you're measuring to get any sort of fair measurement, and this I think you are not likely to do.

     My experience is that very frequently the person in charge of asking the questions will be in control of the answers.  A very important part of polling is finding the right question to ask, and the right way to ask it.

     I'm sorry if this complicates things for you, Hoss, but it's the truth.
rwood
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85 posted 04-26-2010 11:10 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Mr. Bob,

A Plea For Sanity

Post# 266

quote:
While the conclusions about the Harris Poll are by Media Matters, a Left Wing organization, the Poll itself is politically neutral.


And I LOVE this:

quote:
I drew no conclusions about Tea Party Folk from that data that I can recall other than the data that the Poll reported.


?? Huh? No conclusions?? The above is CLASSIC polit-tongue and deserves an amount of applause for the ability to entirely confuse the reader.

and from your latest post:

quote:
If you measure them one way, you'll get one set of data, if you measure them another, you'll get another set of data, and the folks in charge of setting that definition more or less control in advance the outcome of the poll.  You'd have to find some method which everybody agreed upon to define the group whose will you're measuring to get any sort of fair measurement, and this I think you are not likely to do.

     My experience is that very frequently the person in charge of asking the questions will be in control of the answers.  A very important part of polling is finding the right question to ask, and the right way to ask it.


Anywho, by your own conclusion ďMedia Matters, a Left Wing organization,Ē was in control of the answers on the Harris Poll, which is unfair and unlikely to be true by your assertion of methodology used to measure such data.

Polls are not the same as elections, as Grinch has tried to point out.

Elections provide a voting box for ďWe The People" to vote for a person in office, and polls get a few people to participate in online questionnaires or phone surveys. The data collected from polls hardly equals the result of an election, but who's counting

Tea Partiers & Coffee Partiers tout a collective will for their party.

The collective will of a people who vote on Election Day does not reflect the individual will of all, which is just one more element that supports the importance of voting and this may also explain the desperate nature of each collective party to win people over to their party process.

Right now, I believe that Coffee Partiers are trying to paint conservatives as Christian religious freaks who are uneducated nut-cases.

Doesnít that harm Obamaís character, in light of him being a highly educated--sound of mind Christian, and although he is a Democrat he still has somewhat conservative views?


as the polls are really geared to counter, of course.
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86 posted 04-26-2010 07:11 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Regina! Didn't you know that left-wing polls are politically neutral??? Where you been?!?!?!
Bob K
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87 posted 04-26-2010 10:19 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     The Harris Polls were reported by the left wing organization, "Media Matters."  "Media Matters" is one of those organizations that I identify by political affiliation for those folks out there whom I know who do not care to take account of organizations which are left wing.  I do this so that I am being as straight as possible with the people I am talking to.  I think you have a right to know when I put in a reference to a Left wing organization.  I don't want to feel that I am being deceptive.  I feel that keeping you informed of this sort of thing is a courtesy.

     The Harris organization is not a left wing organization.  "Media Matters" was, however, quoting them.  They had their own take on what The Harris Organization had to say; and I wanted you to be aware that "Media Matters" was using the Harris Organization to make their point.  While "Media Matters" is very definitely a left wing Organization, that is, its viewpoint is a left wing viewpoint, and one to which I personally, subscribe, The Harris Organization is independent and neutral, the same way many other polling organizations are.

     If I thought The Harris Organization had a specific political agenda, I would say so.  In case none of you have noticed, I do try to be careful about that.  Actually, perhaps none of you have noticed.  

     I believe my point still stands.

     That is, Everybody makes claims to represent "We the People."  If you're trying to design a poll that measures that question, however, that puts you in a different position.  "We The People" in the constitution was not a description of voters, since there had not actually been anything but a sort of congressional election as yet, and the people who had voted were only a limited segment of the population.  The Preamble was addressing something else, it seems to me at least, something beyond white, male property-owners.

     And if you're going to claim to represent them, you're going to have to define them first.

     Everybody's a bit nervous to do that, Left and Right.

     It's a little tough to claim to be speaking for people you're too nervous to define.  I'd think that "We The People," at its heart, would have to be just about everybody, a sort of consensus of the nation, much like what emerged right after 9/11, or right after Pearl Harbor.  I think that most of us can only dream of being able to speak for that.
Denise
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88 posted 04-27-2010 09:51 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Here's a poll taken on April 24th.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/64746
rwood
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89 posted 04-28-2010 08:50 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

LOL, Mike. This could all be settled by a nation-wide elementary poll.

Do you love Obama?

[ ] yes

[ ] no


Oh, darn! No that wonít work! Without a [maybe] in there, itís as boffed as any other poll.

quote:
It's a little tough to claim to be speaking for people you're too nervous to define.  I'd think that "We The People," at its heart, would have to be just about everybody, a sort of consensus of the nation, much like what emerged right after 9/11, or right after Pearl Harbor.  I think that most of us can only dream of being able to speak for that.


For me, thatís a beautiful thing, Mr. Bob. Because: If you are able to define someone, you are able to confine them.

Many people outside this Nation can only dream of liberty.
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90 posted 04-28-2010 09:53 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Not that simple, Regina. Loving Obama has nothing to do with it. Yep, there are people who will claim that. They will claim that, if you don't like his policies, don't like the higher taxes coming on everything, don't like his redistribution of wealth dreams, don't like the way he has plunged the country into a debt they can't pay for generations, don't like the hoods he has surrounded himself with, don't like his bills that get passed with no one reading them, don't like the unemployment rate that keeps going up with him ignoring it, don't like him not having the time to deal with unemployment but having the time to call police stupid while he jumps in to defend a personal professor friend and having time to marshall forces and berate a state which has the audacity to act on a topic he has NOT acted on, don't like the mounting campaign promises broken, don't like the American people being shut out of policy-shaping
which concerns all of us, don't like the way he travels the world, apologizing for the actions of the United States....if people don't like him, it's not because of those things, oh, it's because they don't love him, or he's black or he's from Chicago or some other trumped up excuse.

Yeah, right.....
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91 posted 04-28-2010 10:49 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Many people outside this Nation can only dream of liberty.

Many people inside this nation have the same dream, Regina.

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92 posted 04-28-2010 11:02 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

True enough, Ron, and that number will be growing, immeasurably.
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93 posted 04-28-2010 04:19 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:

For me, thatís a beautiful thing, Mr. Bob. Because: If you are able to define someone, you are able to confine them.



     I think you have a point there, Regina.  I wasnít, however, the one who was claiming to know the will of ďWe the People.Ē  Itís difficult enough to know your own mind and heart, left alone try to speak for the Nation.  You get into advanced Rhetoric when you try to do that.  Kierkegaardís Purity of Heart Is to Will One Thing sort of stuff, or, on the other end of the moral spectrum, and Hitlerís ďEin Volk, ein Reich, ein FŁhrer.

quote:

Many people outside this Nation can only dream of liberty.



     Thatís very true.

     Whatís also very true is that many people outside this country  have it.  Many people inside this country feel they have it as well.  Some people inside this country feel they have it and that it is endangered for various reasons.  I am among that last group.

quote:

     don't like his redistribution of wealth dreams,



     Iíve addressed most of the other statements in this familiar litany in other forums, Mike.  You know that I disagree, and you know why I disagree.  I lack the energy right now to rehash stuff that Iíve already addressed fairly directly.  Perhaps another time.  This accusation does seem a bit odd to me.  It seems odd because you havenít stopped to think about it in a fairly obvious way.  Most any tax bill is a bill about redistribution of wealth.  Pretty much every state gets taxed by the same Federal codes, doesnít it?  Yet some states get more than they pay in overall, and some get less.  Which is Florida?  As you a net gainer or are you a net loser?  I donít know, though my guess would be that overall, you probably get more than you give in taxes.  Perhaps Iím wrong.  Itís that way with a lot of the Southern states.

     Do you object to that?

     Thatís redistribution of wealth and most of the old confederacy lies like an old gator at the bottom of a pond, dreaming of slavery and blood and killing yankees, and funds those reptile dreams on money supplied by the wealthier and more populous states.  You donít complain about that sort of redistribution of wealth, Mike, do you?  It builds your roads, and helps you with your poverty programs and with unemployment when they happen, helps fund schools and the VA and all sorts of stuff.

     The tax cuts since 2000 massively redistributed wealth upwards, out of the pockets of the middle classes and the poor and into the pockets of the very wealthy.  Those were Republican Redistributive dreams, and they borrowed lots and lots of money from China and from other places to help funs that tax cut.  We are still paying for that tax cut, Mike.  It was supposed to be a stimulus, remember, and instead of being a stimulus, it cost the economy initially twenty-five cents on each dollar we borrowed, and now we are paying the interest to china.  As will our Grandchildren unless we can do something about it.  Thatís where the debt came from.  Now youíre upset about the money to pay that debt back?  Where might you have been when the debt was being incurred, Mike?  You were having a party, as I recall.  You thought it was wonderful!

     When I said that somebody would have to pay for it, you laughed at me.  Now youíre rewriting history.

     You not only didnít object to redistributing the wealth upward, you had the equivalent of a toga party while it was happening.  You said that it would pay for itself.  The wealthy folks didnít put the money back into the economy the way poor folks would have.  Poor folks more or less have to put it back, because theyíre often a paycheck away from starving, so the money goes right back into cheese and crackers and beef and rent and stuff like that.

     Money redistributed to them, Mike, tends to make the economy work.  It makes money for the country.  If the money we redistributed upward during the Bush years cost us twenty-five cents on the dollar out of the economy, the money we redistribute downward tends to generate about a buck twenty into the economy.  It is an investment.

     I wrote about the references for this the last time I gave details about redistribution and tax cuts.  

     About President Obamaís failure to act on Immigration, Iíd suggest that you check the Republicans who have refused to act upon it as well, and not simply during this administration.  The last solid action we had on the subject was during the Reagan administration, and those actions would never be allowed during this administration.  They would certainly not be allowed by the Republicans, who would howl at the very prospect, and certainly the Democrats would have terrible trouble getting legislation like that by these days as well.

     I agree that the problem should be Federal, by the way.

     The bill jointly suggested by Shumer and Graham a few weeks back in an op ed piece they both authored for the New York Times was scuttled when Graham backed out of it.  I think it would have been a good start.
rwood
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94 posted 04-28-2010 05:24 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Ron & Mike,

my context was in reference to how a people
may not be able to experience any such notion of liberty. No freedoms granted or any kind of independent pursuits allowed. And some may even hate the foundations of a sovereign nation so badly they want to annihilate it, as Mr. Bob pointed out with Pearl Harbor & 9/11.  

As far as the American Dream?

Silly dreamers! Life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness is just for kids?

I'm * a * big * kid * now
rwood
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95 posted 04-28-2010 05:55 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Thanks Mr. Bob. We agree that we can't define the "We's" and, no matter how diverse we are, "We" are supposed to be the first order of Government, not the other way around.

I think that's one major thorn of unrest in America right now.

For example: Are We supposed to tell the Gov how much of our money they get to keep, or does the Gov get to tell us how much of our money We get to keep, etc...

And please tell why you feel your liberty is in danger? I don't think I've caught that from you before in your writings.


Mike, Exactly!

The things you wrote are WHY I believe casual polls to be useless at tempering a fully developed mindset for or against a group or person. Like you said, one may love him, but dislike every single thing about his politics. But according to the polls an alarming number of conservatives think he's the Anti-Christ. Mmmm...ok, so does that mean liberals think he's Christ?

Denise
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96 posted 04-28-2010 07:50 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

LOL Some seem to Regina!
Denise
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97 posted 04-28-2010 08:28 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Check out the video towards the bottom of the page. SWAT was called out because the President was at the Convention Center and he needed protection from the Tea Party protesters! Seems they might be more useful in Arizona.

http://biggovernment.com/jhoft/2010/04/28/team-obama-calls-out-swat-team-on-tea-party-patriots/
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98 posted 04-28-2010 08:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

WOWEE!!! That's an incredible video! Calling out the SWAT team on the grandmas? I'll bet those officers with their facemasks down were shaking with fear....or was that laughter??

Hey, Barack!!! They could use a little of that in Arizona where actual rioting is going on.

The man gets more pathetic every day.
Denise
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99 posted 04-28-2010 10:36 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I guess it's all part of political theatre.
 
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