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A Real Class Act

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Denise
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50 posted 04-08-2010 09:12 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Why don't you tell me your definiton of fiction, Bob, and lay out for me its acceptable usage.
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51 posted 04-08-2010 10:02 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

fic·tion   [fik-shuhn]  Show IPA
–noun
1.
the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, esp. in prose form.
2.
works of this class, as novels or short stories: detective fiction.
3.
something feigned, invented, or imagined; a made-up story: We've all heard the fiction of her being in delicate health.
4.
the act of feigning, inventing, or imagining.
5.
an imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.
6.
Law. an allegation that a fact exists that is known not to exist, made by authority of law to bring a case within the operation of a rule of law.


     If you believe something that Jenn says is fiction, I would imagine that politeness would suggest that you say what the fiction is, and why you believe it to fit that catagory, and why you are not indulging in more language inflation, or hyperbole.  That way you might be able to have a discussion on the substance of the matter — whether the accusation is true or not true — on the basis of the facts in front of you.

     Calling something fiction does not make it fiction, just as calling something a disgrace does not make it a disgrace.  Unless the accusation is made concrete — operationalized — it really amounts to little more than name calling.  Once you say exactly what you mean in language that seems clear to everybody involved, then you can discuss the reality of the accusation.  Reasonable folks ought to be able to untangle the reality of an accusation if the accusation is made concrete enough, don't you think?

     Otherwise, it becomes difficult to distinguish an accusation from the arbitrary imposition of a dislike or a prejudice.  (Perhaps Essorant could tell me if the word "prejudice" does, as it sounds that it does, come from some latin way of saying "pre-judgement"?  The though just came to me, and I thought I'd check it out with somebody whom I know actually has some latin.  Unlike me.)

     I don't know that you actually expected me to attempt to answer your question, Denise, but I thought it was more than fair, and the possibility of me making a complete fool of myself was outweighed by what I felt to be an obligation to offer a straight answer to a fair if potentially explosive question.  I hope I did okay with it for you.  
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52 posted 04-08-2010 11:18 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

an imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.

You are right, Denise....fiction.
Bob K
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53 posted 04-09-2010 01:01 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Which, specifically, Mike?
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54 posted 04-09-2010 01:12 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Bob,

Indeed, prejudice comes from prae-iudicium.  Its basic meaning is "prejudgement", but it usually didn't have the connotations we use with it today and was also used where we might say "precedent" or "example".

Here is a good page with the main meanings it has in Latin.


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55 posted 04-09-2010 01:35 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Thank you, Essorant.
Denise
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56 posted 04-09-2010 06:12 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It must be prejudice that keeps you from seeing the fiction that Jen has been posting, Bob. Perhaps you two would be able to have meaningful conversations together, obviously being of the same mind. It's a shame that seems to be a prerequisite with you, but you've proven that we can't have any meaningful dialog. Any attempts have proven to be a complete waste of time.

Thanks Michael. And I think fiction is a very mild word for the hateful baseless smears being hurled around about the conservatives lately.  A few more come to mind that might not be acceptable in polite society. Hmmm....maybe there's a good t-shirt slogan in there somewhere!
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57 posted 04-09-2010 10:32 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Speaking of hateful baseless smears:

"No surprise that Harris poll finds Republicans believe GOP smears of Obama

A Harris poll released on March 24 found that a majority of Republican respondents believe that President Obama "is a socialist," "wants to take away Americans' right to own guns," "is a Muslim," "wants to turn over the sovereignty of the United States to a one world government," and "has done many things that are unconstitutional." The findings follow a year of such smears and attacks on Obama by conservatives."
http://mediamatters.org/research/201003250048

Makes you wonder, are Republicans/conservatives/teabaggers really so gullible they'll believe any sort of rubbish as long as it smears the President? Seems like hate is running their brains as well as their mouths.
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58 posted 04-09-2010 08:51 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Perhaps you could be specific about the baseless smears, so we could look at them, one by one?
Denise
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59 posted 04-11-2010 01:03 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It doesn't matter Bob. It would just be a waste of time. You've already stated previously that those who were maligned with allegations of shouting the N word and spitting, must prove that they didn't do such things, even though there is absolutely no evidence on audio or video, that they did. How can someone reason with logic like that?

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60 posted 04-11-2010 07:25 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Makes you wonder, are Republicans/conservatives/teabaggers really so gullible they'll believe any sort of rubbish as long as it smears the President? Seems like hate is running their brains as well as their mouths.


Isn’t that a little unfair? I mean, I’m a conservative and I don’t think I’m gullible or hateful, there are some who fit your description but could it be that you’re painting the majority with a brush that really fits only a minority?

.
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61 posted 04-11-2010 10:49 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

quote:
The findings follow a year of such smears and attacks on Obama by conservatives." http://mediamatters.org/research/201003250048

We are supposed to believe that the words that are posted on a left-leaning (some might say far-left) website are to be taken at face value when they are used to talk ill about people with whom they disagree?
Ok... let's place more truths from that website out here for the world to see:

Fox News' Sean Hannity falsely claimed that "50 percent of American households no longer pay taxes." In fact, while 47 percent of American households pay no federal income taxes, according to the Tax Policy Center, the "vast majority" of these households reportedly pay other taxeshttp://mediamatters.org/research/201004090085
Did we think he meant they didn't pay sales tax? Perhaps it is the tax on their cell phones or their utilities, or even on the cable bill they aren't paying? And if you are slamming someone by rounding up to the next 5% (which EVERYONE does... on BOTH sides of politics), then you need a new life.

Limbaugh claimed Scarborough Country is top-rated show on MSNBC; it's not true http://mediamatters.org/research/200503100007
Well... later in the very same article, the explaination comes out... "On the March 9 edition of his radio show, syndicated radio host Rush Limbaugh wrongly claimed that Scarborough Country, hosted by former U.S. Rep. Joe Scarborough, a Florida Republican, "probably" has more viewers than any other program on cable news channel MSNBC."
Now, I'm just an uncaring, lying, degenerate, hate the poor people concervative, yet it seems to me that the headline promises that he said it, and then the body of the article quotes him as saying the word probably which seems to infer that he has no proof of the actual numbers, and it is his GUESS that it is... OK... if you are taking both sides of the issue in one article, which are we to believe?

CBO found that the health care law more than pays for itself over the next ten years and beyond.  http://mediamatters.org/research/201004100004
According to Alan Greenspan:
"...there's an issue over and above the
question of what's the best cost estimate.  There's a policy strategy
here which I think requires us to lean in an ever more conservative area
with respect to judging...(question)So it might have been too rosy, the projections, you're saying?...(answer) Possibly.  I don't know that.  But I do know that the
probability that it might be is much higher than we would like."
(This from abc.com)

I looked all over Media Matters, and never once found this exchange. If it is there, I will apologize, yet I didn't see it.

If we are to use excerpts and clips from a website that does nothing but slam the opposition and never gives any free time to those with whom they disagree, then let's be sure that their windows are shatterproof, shall we?

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "WHAT A RIDE

Bob K
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62 posted 04-12-2010 08:51 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Okay Denise, Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ3bNhSYG6Q&feature=related
Bob K
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63 posted 04-12-2010 08:54 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     You have a point about Media Matters.  They sometimes oversell their content.  

     If you read them regularly, you get to the point where you read  them carefully to make sure the articles match the headlines, as you notice they sometimes don't.

     Sadly, they often do.
Bob K
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64 posted 04-12-2010 08:59 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     You have a point about Media Matters.  They sometimes oversell their content.  

     If you read them regularly, you get to the point where you read  them carefully to make sure the articles match the headlines, as you notice they sometimes don't.

     Sadly, they often do.

     You still don't understand the difference between Democratic and far left.  In Europe, there's usually a bit more clarity.  Our Democrats are usually what they call Social Democrats.  They usually have socialist and communist parties, both perfectly respectable and accepted parts of the political spectrum, further to the left of that.  We end with what are essentially social democrats...
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65 posted 04-12-2010 09:20 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

As I mentioned before, Bob. That video does not prove any point that you and Jen have made.
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66 posted 04-12-2010 09:23 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“It is clear from events at the April 10 Tea Party Express rally on our capitol steps in Lansing that homophobia and racism are alive and well in Michigan,” said Marilyn Vogler, spokesperson for the Democratic Party’s LGBTA Caucus. “The day was hi-lighted by stark black and white ’straight pride’ shirts, calls to impeach Obama, a poster with a black hand holding a knife stabbing the Statue of Liberty. Certainly, Tea Party folk have a right to express their opinions, but homophobia and racism should not be tolerated, least of all by our elected officials.”
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67 posted 04-12-2010 09:33 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Lansing, Michigan (CNN) – A leader of the Tea Party movement has a warning for Republicans: the conservative grassroots movement intends to clean house in the Republican Party.

“We need to purge the Republicans of the weaklings,” Tea Party Express 3 Chairman Mark Williams told CNN. “And we’re on a...RINO hunt. And we’re going to drive them to extinction.” “RINO” - “Republicans in name only” – is a bit of a political slur within the GOP that is sometimes used by staunch conservatives to refer to those fellow Republicans who they do not regard as hewing closely enough to the party’s core principles.

“I got more knife wounds in my back from Republican operatives, than Democrats could ever do,” Williams said. He added, “The Democrats at least stand there and tell me they hate me, and tell me that they hate America. These Republicans smile at me, shake my hand and then they stab me in the back.”
Bob K
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68 posted 04-12-2010 10:53 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Actually, Denise, that's not true.

      Previously, you denied the existence of any video at all as the basis for your point.

       Apparently, confronted with the video, which I am as surprised to see, by the way, as you may be, you have skipped over the fact that you now have to account for the video which you previously denied even existed.  Perhaps you might start there?  Then you could proceed to saying something on the order of what you just said.  It would make more sense that way.

     This way, it simply looks silly.  You have the video in front of you, you have the spitting on tape, you have Cleaver wiping his face off as he walks up the stairs.  Your whole defense of the Movement is that there are no tapes of the thing around, and here one surfaces.  You could at least try to claim that it's phony or that the spitter is a communist plant.

     I'd grant you that the guy's a loony tune to do that, but there seem to be a lot of loony tunes showing up on pictures, either spitting, as here, or showing misspelled signs, of ganging on on guys with Parkinson's Disease.

     There are a lot of decent conservative folks who have a beef with the Democrats, with the tax situation, with the employment situation, with the health care situation or with the general economic outlook, and I've got endless sympathy for them, and, really, for you.  But the rhetoric has got these outliers foaming at the mouth in an unpleasant and dangerous way.  Remember the woman that McCain had to quiet down at his town meeting during the election?  

     McCain's approach to distance himself and the Republican mainstream from that sort of Rhetoric was fairly sensible.  He didn't tell her to shut up.  He told her that he did not agree with the views she was saying she thought he represented.  He made a point of distancing himself from a message of racism and hate.  He didn't say, Shut up;  he said, "That's not me."

     If The Tea Party Movement wants to gain the respect I think it deserves, it needs, I believe, to draw that distinction between itself and its wing-nut outliers in the same way that Democrats learned to deplore the craziness of the SDS and those even further to the left 40 years ago.

     You can't shut people up successfully.  You shouldn't really try.

     What you should do instead is find out what the core thing is that they are trying to do that is in the common good, that is laudable, and see if you can't find a way of helping them do that in a way that is mutually agreeable.  There's usually a way that something along those lines can be worked out if everybody is really wanting to work for the common good.
Denise
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69 posted 04-12-2010 11:53 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I said, Bob, that no video existed showing any wrongdoing that would support the allegations being made. You still haven't provided any. The same video was posted here last week or so.
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70 posted 04-12-2010 01:09 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     First I've seen it was last night.

     And you haven't accounted for it.

      That's sort of disingenuous, Denise, isn't it?
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71 posted 04-12-2010 01:40 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

The guy at the end of this video sort of sums up my view of the wing nuts that are attaching themselves to the tea party movement. It’s worth watching, whichever side of the political fence you come from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgec9WX21ik&feature=related
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72 posted 04-12-2010 02:06 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Go back and read my previous comments on that video, Bob. I'm not being disingenuous. I already commented on it.
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73 posted 04-12-2010 02:20 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Can you hear it now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF8cC0J-NZM&feature=related
Denise
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74 posted 04-12-2010 02:50 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

No, I can't. Maybe next time the planted saboteurs should yell a bit louder, or bring their own sound enhancement equipment, along with their Nazi signs, for the occasion!
 
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