Jennifer, Jennifer, Jennifer...
At first I tuned into your threads because they amused me... the misguided (in my opinion) rhetoric, the over the top accusations, and the hate speech
(oh, wait... that is a Republican item solely... the Democrats never indulge in such). The thread about the 9/12 commissions stopping their use for public services was- again- MY opine) actually had me laughing full value... especially the part where you continued to post on the Blue Pages, yet when you were answered with reasoned, well, thought out responses by more than one, you seemed to never make it back to that thread... and now we have this...
I'm certain you have something specific in mind here. You simply have neglected to mention what that would be in any way that I can identify. If you'd give me an actual quote or something I could sink my teeth into, it'd be a help. In the meantime, it really makes no sense. I'm sure the fault is mine.
I know that you try for well thought out responses. Most of us do. But most of us fall short, including me; so I'm especially interested in which well-thought-out, reasoned responses you might be talking about that simply blew Jennifer out of the water. Or anybody, for that matter.
Ringo quotes Jennifer:
You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.
Then Ringo comments:
November 10: The Florida machine recount is completed.
November 12: Palm Beach County officials vote to conduct a full hand recount of presidential votes; Volusia County begins its own hand count
November 13: A federal judge turns down the Bush team's attempt to stop manual recounts.
November 15: Broward County decides to begin a hand recount
November 16: The Florida Supreme Court rules Palm Beach County can proceed with a manual recount of ballots.
November 17: The Florida Supreme Court blocks (Republicans) from any vote certification until it can rule on the Democrats' motion to allow hand recounts to be counted. The midnight deadline strikes for counties to receive overseas absentee ballots. Miami-Dade County reverses an earlier decision and votes to conduct a full manual recount. The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals denies GOP request to stop manual recounts on constitutional grounds.
November 20: Circuit Judge Jorge Labarga says he lacks authority under the U.S. Constitution to order a new presidential election in Palm Beach County.
November 21: The Florida Supreme Court orders hand counts to continue, and gives counties five days to complete them.
November 29: N. Sanders Sauls, the judge hearing Gore's election contest, orders all ballots from Palm Beach and Miami-Dade counties -- more than 1 million -- shipped to Tallahassee for possible hand counts in Gore's contest.
December 8: the Florida Supreme Court orders manual recounts in all counties with significant numbers of presidential undervotes
December 12: At 10 PM at night the Supreme Court rules that no further recounts can take place
HOW MANY RECOUNTS DOES IT TAKE TO GET TO THE CENTER OF A TOOTSIE POP???
Well, you see that's the problem with the devastating logical comebacks, Ringo. They only work when they actually address the issue brought up. As you will notice, there were a lot of recounts started and a lot of disputations begun about those pesky Florida ballots, but if you'll have a look at your list for any re-counts that were actually finished, you'll notice that there aren't any. None.
You have just laid out the details of why Jennifer was upset. Lots of folks believed that there was something fishy going on, lots of fuss was made, and the Supreme court did not allow that issue to actually be settled. They appointed the president by fiat.
Just as Jennifer said.
And, Just as Jennifer said, you weren't upset.
In fact, if we are to believe you and your conclusions, YOU DIDN'T EVEN NOTICE. Oops. And there's Mike in the next space, clapping.
Ringo quotes Jennifer:
You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.
Sorry, Sweetheart... the United States has not declared war since Dec. 8, 1943 when FDR signed the official war pact against the Japanese. This, oddly enough, is a fact that I learned from an Operation Enduring Freedom protestor, and a member of the Blue Pages.
Your source is correct. The fact that this Iraq action is not a war is an important piece of information.
As a conservative, however, you may have missed a small piece of understanding that you should really consider about our government, Republican or Democratic or, should it happen, some other Party. The Constitution has reserved the power of declaring war for the Congress. It was usurped by the executive branch, I think mostly when Democrats have been in power, sad to say, and that is an attack on the Constitution and on the separation of powers.
Beyond that, however, you may have been missing the point about the Iraqi Action. It's cost 600 Billion Dollars so far. You might ask Grinch about the U.K. investigations into the start of that war and how it appears that the Iraqi conflict was planned before the Republicans took office, and certainly well before 9/11. This has been coming out in the U.K. and it has not been coming out over here. I'd like to hear more about it myself. Whatever was going on over there that we didn't like, it is not clear that we needed to become involved as expensively as we did, and the intervention seems to have been made for reasons other than what the American public has been told.
It remains obvious that as often as you call Jennifer "Sweetheart," she does not return your affections. This is a passion you would be wise to give up as futile.
What would the wife and kids think, anyway, Sweet-buns?
Ringo quotes Jennifer:
You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.
The ENTIRE country got peeved at that one. Congress was besieged with letters, phone calls, and e-mails demanding action.
Certainly a true comment on your part.
What needs to be taken into account here, and what you have not taken into account is the cause of some of those conditions, which included attempts to privatize some of the services, and which included attempts to cut back some of the funding for the VA. This cannot be allowed to happen. We need to fund the VA generously, and there should be no room for anybody to squeeze a profit in that generous budget.
The move to exclude soldiers from service benefits from PTSD related problems and from other psychological problems was an unhappy part of many veterans experiences in returning home. And that was related to some of the unfortunate attempts to cut back on entitlements stemming from the war. We need to recognize this, make it better and move on. I don't care about laying blame, I only want it made better. Laying blame would only slow things down.
Ringo quotes Jennifer:
You didn't get mad when we let a major US city drown.
The levee system was started in 1965 (under a Democratic president, thank you), and was still unfinished when Katrina hit. I believe in that time, there were 3 Democratic Presidents that GOT NOTHING DONE!! And you put the Republicans at fault. In 2004, a Corps of Engineers' study was done on the costs and feasibility of protecting southeast Louisiana from a major Category 5 hurricane, including construction of floodgate structures and raising existing levees. I believe that would have been a REPUBLICAN administration that was in power then.
I would also recommend that you go back and research the Archives here at PIP to that fateful day... once you actually know what you are talking about... then you may speak. Until then, I believe silence on a subject on which you have only minimal information at best is called for.
Do you think Jennifer was angry about things that the Democrats could split responsibility with the Republicans for messing up? Perhaps she was. I think that the majority of the rule in recent years has been Republican, but I'm willing to blame the occasional wretched Democrat.
On the other hand, what happened when the Hurricane hit the Gulf Coast is something Else indeed, Ringo, and I believe you're aware of that. You may have caught some of my exchanges with Mike at that time, since you speak of the history of things. Relief was hopelessly tangled because of poor management in FEMA, and agency with a previously fine reputation that, during the Bush administration was staffed with Bush's friends and supporters and an occasional Arabian Horse. These folks managed to make a fair amount of money for the Bush bidders on the contracts for the rebuilding — you might try checking the postings at the time, since they're in the records. I have some of that documented in those, and I'm hopeless at using the archives here. The Faux Media was filled with lies and the entire thing was grossly mishandled. One Republican lawmaker at the time actually suggested that we simply let the city rot and try rebuilding elsewhere.
Again, what I see you doing here is defending stuff leading up to the actual drowning, and not actually talking about what happened afterward. I think the city could use some extra levee work even now, but the city is still recovering from the poor governmental clean up job afterward. I haven't heard much about that from Democrats or Republicans.
Ringo quotes Jennifer as saying:
You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.
Just what iun the Hell do you think it was that got the 9/12 organizations were in action LONG before the Health care debate occurred. I believe the official date of the first protest was 4/15 (tax day) 2009, was it not? Oh, wait, you weren't there. You were at home scoffing the Americans who were exercising their Constitutional rights to peaceful protest... adn the fact that there were NO arrest, nationwide, would lead me to believe that they were peaceful.
I feel silly confessing I don't know when the deficit hit a trillion dollars, but I don't.
I'm certainly happy that the TEA Party folks were protesting on Tax Day, but if I remember correctly, they were protesting the tax burden, and not the deficit, right? TEA — Taxed Enough Already, isn't it?
Now I'm certainly happy that the demonstration was peaceful, but it seems to me that you're not really addressing Jennifer's point here, which is about the deficit and not how upset you are about the amount of taxes you have to pay. Perhaps you feel that upset about having to shell out is something you have a monopoly upon,. and for that reason you can use that anger to address this other issue that Jennifer is talking about, the deficit.
That's hardly fair, now, is it? I thought I had a monopoly on how upset I was on how much I was being taxed, and that gave me a right to. . . never mind, that's between me and my psychiatrist.
But I want you to know that I was NEVER arrested for it, and all the dogs me loved afterward, and tended to follow me around. I was very peaceful.
Ringo quotes Jennifer:
You finally got mad when.. when... wait for it... when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick.
Again... once you have the facts, the WHOLE facts, and nothing but the facts (and not that Rachael Maddow sewer filler that you are spouting -yes, I watch her show also) then you may speak.
I can't speak for Jennifer here, But I want you to know that, for myself, I find this amazingly confusing. I am glad that I stopped to listen to what your understanding of these particular facts are. I confess that I don't agree with them all, though I have indicated my agreement with some of them, especially the parts about Democratic culpability in the lead-up to the destruction of New Orleans by not making sure the levees were constructed. I also confessed my ignorance of some of the facts, for example, not knowing when the deficit hit a trillion dollars.
I frankly am at a loss to understand what Jennifer's done in these pages that folks on the right haven't done as well, and certainly more bluntly, over the years. And this particular closing, Ringo, might have been better revised or omitted:
Now, as you have shown your true colors on these pages more than once, over the course of more than one subject, and you have shown that peacecable debate and exchange of differing ideas is beyond your realm of possibility (unless those differing ideas agree with yours 100%), I am done playing with you. You may reply with any of the abuse and vitriolic speech you feel it in your heart to answer with as I shant return. Thankfully, the very men and women who have died in the service to their country have offered you that right, though you continuously deny that same right to others.
Enjoy the rest of your discussion.
It sounds like the conclusion of a sore loser when, if fact, I don't see you as a loser here at all, though the soreness seems evident. Even if you are sore, I'm uncertain of the reason for it, since you've done pretty well in the give and take, but have had only a bit of difficulty in making sure that you find and stick to the real point. Frustration is something that marks everybody's efforts in learning to do these things, and the urge to withdraw is continually part of that struggle.
Learning to write prose is learning to think. It always appears simpler than it is. I'm always struggling with feeling like an idiot because part of me always is an idiot for whom thinking is too hard.
If I can make an idiot of myself on a semi-regular basis, why not you too. There's an endless need for fools in this life. Throw yourself in. The water's fine.
Love, Bob Kaven