How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 A Plea For Sanity   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  ]
 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

A Plea For Sanity

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


125 posted 04-02-2010 06:44 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, first of all. thank you for actually addressing the question and making an effort to answer it. I appreciate that.


Initial press reports said that the N****r word had been used, and that Congressman Clearver had been spat upon.  Others in his party verified those events.  I have seen no reports of protestors in the area denying those events, though there may be some.  You would think they would be featured prominently in the opposition press.  Instead, what has been featured are reports of lack of video and sound recordings of the incident.  Video and sound recordings are difficult to achieve in a spontaneous fashion, as any professional will tell you, depending mostly on chance.

Bob, I would think nothing of the kind. They are fewer things more distasteful than having to stand up and declare your innocence for something you haven't done. I don't care for it and I doubt you do, either, yet you seem to feel the people there should have. I don't call that a valid argument. As far as video and sound recordings being difficult to achieve in a spontaneous fashion......


Rep. Andre Carson, D-Ind., told a reporter that as he left the Cannon House Office Building with Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga., a leader of the civil rights era, some among the crowd chanted “the N-word, the N-word, 15 times.” Both Carson and Lewis are black, and Lewis spokeswoman Brenda Jones also said that it occurred.

Now we are not talking about a single, spontaneous act that the cameras and sound devices missed because they were not in position. We are talking about a CHANT, a prolongued chant that used the N word fifteen times. Do you really believe that could happen around a group of congressmen and not be captured on any video or sound device??? With the headline-seeking barracudas that comprise our news agencies, do you REALLY find that to be realistic? I would consider it almost impossible.

Evidently the Republican offering the reward has declined to pay out for the testimony of the Democrats keeping Congressman Cleaver company and who were on that spot.

As he should. Would you pay out a hundred grand to someone based on their word only, with nothing factual to back it up? I find that unlikely.

The facts are fairly clear.  At your request, I backed up and reviewed them, and I presented them with references.

What you presented were the words of others, not factually backed up. I will not say the event didn't happen. In any group, be them democrats, republicans, hari krishnas or boy scouts, there will always be hotheads and rebels. It very well could have happened. All I am saying is there is nothing factual to back it up.


I continue to suggest that you would have me beg the question by asserting that the Congressman did something wrong.  I say to you that I see no evidence that he did. Only more Republican flummery.

No, my question was not whether or not he did something wrong. My question was were his actions the actions of a congressman with the best interests of the country at heart. Did he and his people say anything that could produce something positive or something that would simply further fuel dissention and outrage...and, if so, what was their motive? You may respond by saying thay said it because it happened. Ok....the next time you feel your wife looks horrible in a new dress, I suggest you don't tell her. Even on a personal level,we often choke back truisms for the greater good of a relationship or situation. For congressmen, that same restraint should apply to anything that could negatively affect the good of the country. The congressman and his entourage did not seem to care that their words could enrage and encourage retaliation...with no positive benefits. My question to you was do you agree with that way of thinking? That's all.

Once again, I thank you for your reply. You put in effort and research,  you stuck to the topic and you were honest and decent in your presentation. Conversations like this are beneficial to all concerned.
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


126 posted 04-02-2010 07:18 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Very interesting to note there’s no discussion about the recorded and written death threats directed at Democratic members of Congress and their families, the bricks through windows, the cut gas line, etc.. I wonder why that is, perhaps because there’s so much evidence showing those things really happened?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


127 posted 04-02-2010 07:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Simple....they weren't part of the conversation between Bob and I. If you would like to start a thread for them, go ahead.
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


128 posted 04-02-2010 07:33 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

The recorded and written death threats directed at Democratic members of Congress and their families, the bricks through windows, the cut gas line, the coded language of violence being tossed about by Replublican pundits and teabaggers, etc. are all a part of what this thread I started is about.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


129 posted 04-02-2010 07:42 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, you simply started it with vitriol against teabaggers and Cantor's "false" story...little more than rants.
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


130 posted 04-02-2010 07:57 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4Wfkz-5LEA
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


131 posted 04-02-2010 07:58 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I wonder if there was a point for Pelosi, with her oversized gavel, and the Black Democratic Caucus to take the route they did that day, straight through the heart of the crowd of protestors. I heard that the normal route is through a private tunnel conntecting the buildings. Were they perhaps hoping for an incident of some sort? And when they didn't get what they wanted, they just made it up anyway?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


132 posted 04-02-2010 08:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That same point was on the news last night, Denise...definitely  not standard practice.
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


133 posted 04-02-2010 08:14 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“Since Democrats retook control of the House in January 2007, the gavel hasn't been just a symbol of the speaker's power. It has been a particularly volatile image from the moment she was photographed receiving it from John Boehner. The outgoing Republican majority leader wasn't just yielding power after an electoral thumping, he was yielding it to a woman, the first woman to sit only two heartbeats from the presidency. Right-wing blogs frequently use that image, often without explanation, as if it is manifestly obvious that the world is upside down if a woman from San Francisco in a tailored cabernet-colored suit is brandishing the implement”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/22/AR2010032203564.html
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


134 posted 04-02-2010 08:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

There you have it, Denise. She used a volatile image to walk through the crowd of protesters. Obvious what her reasons were....
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


135 posted 04-02-2010 08:22 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Robin: Wow! I think I'll be hard of hearing for a while!
Batman: What?!!
Robin: I said, WOW! I THINK I'LL BE HARD OF HEARING FOR A WHILE!
Batman: You'll have to speak louder, Robin! I think I'll be hard of hearing for a while!
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


136 posted 04-02-2010 08:47 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Rep. Steve Cohen was on The Young Turks last night and he brought it. He said the Republicans in Congress seemed to be encouraging the Tea Party protests to the point of nearly inciting a riot. He said it was like "mob rule." In Tennessee people were throwing rocks through windows. Talking about the local and national protests, the Congressman said, "It was the verge of Kristallnacht."

Finally, imagine if there were a group of well-organized Muslims in the country leading rage filled protests. That they were being led by Democratic congressmen and left-wing commentators. And they started throwing bricks through windows, cutting gas lines, sending white powder to congressmen's offices and sending death threats. What do you think the general attitude of the nation and the press would be? My guess is utter panic and an enormous backlash.

So, why aren't people reacting the same way when it's right-wing zealots doing these things? Does it appear to be less scary when it's done by white people? By right-wingers? The last time the extreme right-wing movement got this worked up, someone blew up a federal building in Oklahoma. We have already had several federal buildings attacked and the size of the militia movement is even larger now than when Clinton was president. When is it time to get concerned? What are we waiting for? For the attacks to get larger? To get deadlier?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/rep-steve-cohen-sarah-pal_b_523647.html
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


137 posted 04-02-2010 08:59 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Denise, Am I to understand that the "oversized gavel" was the one that the Republicans were using before?  And that it was given to her by the former Republican Speaker?  

     What do you think would have been the reaction if she'd gotten a more dainty gavel, Denise, or painted this one pink?  I can imagine no circumstance under which you would not find something to criticize about her, including, as in this case, doing nothing.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


138 posted 04-02-2010 09:17 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Thanks for your 125.  I appreciate the tone of the reply, the civility and straightforwardness of it.  I don't demand agreement, that would be silly of me, especially from somebody who disagrees.  Understanding the possibility is more than enough; graciousness is wonderful.

     Telling my wife that she doesn't look her best when in fact she doesn't look her best is a difficult thing.

     I try to remember that I don't have to do difficult things in a blunt and unpleasant way, and that I have to make a judgement call about it.  We've gotten to the point where she can tell me, not those pants, and not that shirt and I can do the same because we trust we're looking out for each other.  I sometimes go shopping with her and will make suggestion about what I think is flattering on her and what I think isn't.  She likes me being involved in the shopping, mostly, so that makes it easier.

  
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


139 posted 04-02-2010 09:20 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Maybe it's not mostly right wing zealots responsible for the violence, Jen, and maybe it's not as widespread as the Democrats and media are attempting to portray the incidents.

I don't remember anyone in the past putting on a show like that, Bob. What was the point of the parade through the crowd instead of taking the normal route?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


140 posted 04-02-2010 09:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, the last time I tried to correct mine on anything was when I said her nylons were wrinked and she told me she wasn't wearing any!

The famous gavel...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ9eiyQtXyI  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKIcQ0xYNZA
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


141 posted 04-02-2010 09:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

We know why she did it, Denise. It was an "in-your-face" gesture towards the protesters...and then she complains about right-wing incitement. That's our Nancy...all class.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


142 posted 04-02-2010 09:50 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I ran across some new information on the IRS Agents that we've been hearing about from folks on the Right when I was browsing on fact-check.  I  thought I'd post the reference because the actual fact-checked data does seem to be a breath of sanity:
http://factcheck.org/2010/03/irs-expansion/
Enjoy!
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


143 posted 04-02-2010 10:14 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:

There you have it, Denise. She used a volatile image to walk through the crowd of protesters. Obvious what her reasons were....



     This may be obvious to you, but it is not obvious to me.  Are you saying that Speaker Pelosi walked through a crowd while waving the gavel from the house of Representatives and that this set off a wave of spitting and verbally abusive Radical Right wing folks into assaulting Congressmen other than Speaker Pelosi?  That is in fact what it sounds to me that you are saying, though that chain of events makes no sense to me at all.  I'd appreciate one of you filling me in on exactly what this obvious chain of events may be, Hmm?  Share the wealth of understanding here.

     I'm also unclear as to how somebody might use a volatile image to walk, since it seems to offer little support.  Nowhere near that of feet, for example, or crutches, or even a cane.  Being volatile, I'd be nervous about it either evaporating or exploding, myself.

     In regard to an earlier conversation, one may have the right of free speech in regard to political speech in this country, but I believe that other speech may have limits on it.  I know that the "assault" in the phrase "assault and battery" may be defined — at least in some states — as a verbal assault, and is illegal.  One should not have to suffer the indignity of suffering a verbal assault, as distinguished from the freedom and (I would say, obligation) to express ones' self politically.  The "battery" part is the physical pummeling.  The spitting, could well have run the charges into "Assault and Battery upon a Federal official," which could have run into serious jail time indeed for something of this sort.  

     Enough so that pressing the charges might well have backfired, which makes more sense to me than any other explanation than I can think of.  The political calculus was not in Congressman Cleaver's favor to press charges.  

  
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


144 posted 04-02-2010 10:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thanks for the link, Bob. I don't have time to look at it thoroughly tonight but a couple of things have stuck out...


Its first task is to inform many small-business owners of a new tax credit that the new law grants them — starting this year — which will pay up to 35 percent of the employer’s contribution toward their workers’ health insurance.

I don't know what they mean by "inform". As grinch said, most IRS work is done by computers. What will they do to "inform"? Send out letters? Send out agents to explain the new system to businesses? If that't the case, then there definitely would be a need for new agents - and a lot of them.

In any case, the bill signed into law (on page 131) specifically prohibits the IRS from using the liens and levies commonly used to collect money owed by delinquent taxpayers, and rules out any criminal penalties for individuals who refuse to pay the tax or those who don’t obtain coverage. That doesn’t leave a lot for IRS enforcers to do.

I wonder, then, who is in charge of enforcement. If the IRS is in charge and yet they don't have enforcement powers, who does? Or does it mean there will be no enforcement?

    GOP Analysis, March 18: IRS may need to hire as many as 16,500 additional auditors, agents and other employees.

Notice the words "may" and "as many as." This is the highest figure the GOP analysts thought they could support. Notice also the phrase "other employees," which covers everyone down to file clerks and support staff.

The analysts based their 16,500 figure on an assumption that the IRS budget "could" require an additional $10 billion over the next 10 years as a result of the law, a figure they attribute to the Congressional Budget Office. But what CBO Director Douglas W. Elmendorf actually said in a March 11 letter to congressional leaders is this (with emphasis added):

    CBO Director Elmendorf, March 11: CBO has not completed an estimate of all of the discretionary costs that would be associated with H.R. 3590. … [S]uch costs would probably include an estimated $5 billion to $10 billion over 10 years for administrative costs of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS).


Ok, if the republicans want to use the top figure, I don't see a problem with that. The CBO said 5-10 billion. Nothing wrong with going with the top figure, since any congressional spending always seems to go over the top of projections.

Finally, regarding Ron Paul's claim that they would all be armed, I can't buy that at all and consider him dead wrong for saying it. That would be ridiculous.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


145 posted 04-02-2010 10:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Are you saying that Speaker Pelosi walked through a crowd while waving the gavel from the house of Representatives and that this set off a wave of spitting and verbally abusive Radical Right wing folks into assaulting Congressmen other than Speaker Pelosi?

Nope, not saying that at all. I have no idea what she set off. I do know that she did it as a provocative gesture, obviously uncaring as to whether it would set off anything or not. Her "strut" was more important to her than any repercussions it could cause. She is well-deserving of her 7% approval rating.
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


146 posted 04-02-2010 10:41 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

OMG was that little 70 year old size zero woman threatening the teabagger mob with the gavel? They must have been absolutely terrified.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


147 posted 04-02-2010 10:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Another brilliant statement, Jennifer. Interesting how you wish to present yourself.
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


148 posted 04-02-2010 10:52 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

See post # 1 and think about it.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


149 posted 04-02-2010 10:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Post #1 doesn't show me anything but someone not to be taken seriously. After some of your  comments today, you have joined that group. Congrats...
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> A Plea For Sanity   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors