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JenniferMaxwell
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100 posted 04-01-2010 06:35 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Almost two grand, Bob.
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101 posted 04-01-2010 06:41 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Republican family values - $2000 worth of BDSM for the under 45 and a Doughnut Hole for Granny.

“Turns out the Republican National Committee staffer who accompanied a group of donors to Voyeur, a bondage-themed nightclub in West Hollywood, and then turned in an expense account seeking reimbursement for the nearly $2,000 tab, is one Allison Meyers, director — make that former director — of the RNC's Young Eagles program of donors under the age of 45.”

“As described by the Los Angeles Times, the club, "inspired by the film 'Eyes Wide Shut,' is intended to be 'risque and provocative' and 'a combination of intimidation and sexuality,' " in the words of partner David Koral. "Scantily clad performers play out bondage and sadomasochistic 'scenes' during the night."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2011499736_marcus02.html

Bob K
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102 posted 04-01-2010 07:01 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




quote:

The Times tried to create a distraction by printing facts? They only went 40 years in the past because Ayers is still part of the scene NOW. Yes, you may claim that, since he is a model citizen now, it's no harm, no foul, but wouldn't you consider it just a little strange that a man involved in bombing the Pentagon and other things would ever be a close friend of a President? The thing is that he is not the only one. There are other such radicals right there with him, close to the President. If you can't find that a little strange, especially in light of the fact Obama is making moves in the direction these past radicals endorse, then I won't try to convince you any further.



     And which past do you say that Ayers endorses, Mike?  Bombing?  Nonsense!  That's an outside the system tactic.  It was when the SDS advocated it 40 years ago and it still is.  Ayers is an inside the system guy, and his solutions may or may not be as radical on the left as yours are on the right.  How do you measure that?

     The facts that The Times chose to dredge up have little to do with the way the Republicans have run their opposition over the past year or so and the way that it's turned around on them over the past few weeks.  It's old stuff dredged up from the election, trying to rally the radical right base of the party.   It seems to work well at doing so.  How well it will continue to work will depend on the level of violence that shows up in the country and how actively the Right Wing continues to encourage it.

quote:

Your plan seems to attempt to target the Times. I believe you have said in the past "Don't shoot the messenger" and "Just because the source may be one you don't favor doesn't mean they can't print true statements.", or thoughts along those lines. Apparently you don't give such leeway to the Times.



     I asked about the reality of what The Washington Times had to say.  That's hardly "an assault."  And when you supplied data, which they should have supplied themselves, I acknowledged my mistaken assumption and the gaps in my own information, as was appropriate for me to do.  Their information was better than mine, and I acknowledged my ignorance.  I believe that is offering Leeway to The Washington Times.  If you don't believe so, you might suggest why that's the case.  

     I certainly didn't kill the messinger.  I questioned the messinger.

     I also found the messinger lacking in some areas, as you might have noticed.  I said that as well.  

quote:

It's interesting that you won't accept the deliberate firing of a bullet into the congressman's office because there were no witnesses and yet to accept with faith the other congressman's allegation that tea-partiers hurled racial insults at him. This allegedly occured with cameras and microphones everywhere, especially on congressmen, and yet it was never caught either on video or tape. That appears to you to be a done deal while a bullet in the wall doesn't.



     Why would I accept "the deliberate firing of a bullet" into Congressman Eric Cantor's Richmond office when the police investigation said that it appeared accidental.  I believe the initial reports said it was into the Congressman's office, but that there were other reports that say it was into the building where the Congressman had his offices.  Am I incorrect here?  This seems to be begging the question, overall.  

     Beyond all of this, I deplore anybody shooting a gun into the air anywhere.  It's terrible gun safety.  Any member or former member of the NRA should agree with me and should want whoever did this arrested for such idiocy.  It endangers public safety.  If it was on purpose, as a political gesture, it is even worse, no matter who did it.  It certainly raises the issue of gun control at a time when The Republican Party should be uncomfortable having it raised, and the Democratic party, trying to appease the right wing members in its own ranks can't be happy either.

     As for the aim of Cameras and microphones, as any sound recordist or camera man can tell you, you have to be pretty lucky to get things on film that you even plan to get on film, let alone get them on film and on sound recording in any way that can be deciphered later.  Once again, the folks who write these sort of talking points seem to trust you not to trust your own experience and not to think, all at the same time.  Hearing the questions raised once again simply makes the questions sound silly once again.  Sound check!  Sound check!  Hello!  Hello!

quote:
  
I don't know Leboon's political affiliation, either. That's not the point. It doesn't matter. The point was not that democrats were firing at republicans. The point was that republicans are getting the same insults and actions against them as democrats are.



     You'd think that everybody would love the Republicans, wouldn't you, given the amount of help they've offered in governing the nation, and the way they've tried to help bring the country together after the election.  Certainly, everybody thinks of the Republicans as the Party of Amity and concilliation, which is why the hostility toward them is such a big shock.  Not to mention the way they were able to make so many people so happy during the previous eight years.  

     Of course people are unhappy with the Republicans too, Mike.

     The country is unhappy with everybody in Congress, Democrats and Republicans, and we need to stop blaming each other and have a good solid look at our political process and start thinking deeply about why that is.  I think it's got a lot to do with the feeling that the government is for sale to the highest bidder, and a lot of that has crystalized with the recent supreme court decision.  I don't know that people actually consciously link it with that decision, but since that time, I've felt a real sense of fatalism and futility in the air.  Money equals speech.

     Right.

     Corporations are people.

     Right.


quote:

You may continue to feel that this hysteria is being fueled by republicans but you are in a large minority. The democrats have been doing everything in their power to make sure every incident gets full coverage, complete with them pointing fingers at republicans. This is understandable, since Obama has made finger-pointing so popular as a way of avoiding blame for anything. They are doing everything possible to keep the fires burning and, in doing so, foster more of the same. The public is not buying it and neither do I.



     You may be noticing which direction my finger is pointing.  My finger is pointing at the infusion of money into the electoral process.  Anybody's money.  Chinese money, mafia money, wall street money, defense contractor money, union money, you name it money.  It doesn't even have to be American money that can be used to buy an American election.  Saudi Money has an interesting and to my mind at least, a historical ring to it.

quote:

Not everything has to be partisan, Bob. Democrats are under attack and so are republicans. Instead of democrats spending their time pointing fingers, they should be spending it downplaying the incidents and working towards having them stop. Undoubtedly, the Times felt the need to print what they did because of the democrats' actions and constant accusations in one direction. One can only be falsely accused so many time before the other responds.



     We have agreement, though we are looking, I think, in opposite directions.

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103 posted 04-01-2010 07:58 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The country is unhappy with everybody in Congress, Democrats and Republicans, and we need to stop blaming each other and have a good solid look at our political process and start thinking deeply about why that is.  I think it's got a lot to do with the feeling that the government is for sale to the highest bidder, and a lot of that has crystalized with the recent supreme court decision.  I don't know that people actually consciously link it with that decision, but since that time, I've felt a real sense of fatalism and futility in the air.  Money equals speech.

     You may be noticing which direction my finger is pointing.  My finger is pointing at the infusion of money into the electoral process.  Anybody's money.  Chinese money, mafia money, wall street money, defense contractor money, union money, you name it money.  It doesn't even have to be American money that can be used to buy an American election.  Saudi Money has an interesting and to my mind at least, a historical ring to it.


Very timely statements, Bob. Figures came out today that 2009 set a record for money spent by lobbyists, 3.4 billion, I believe, the majority of it going to Democrats. What makes that even more interesting was that it was a major point in Obama's platform that he promised to keep the lobbyists out of Washington, not to allow them to set a spending record....just another promise up in smoke, like so many others.

you have to be pretty lucky to get things on film that you even plan to get on film, let alone get them on film and on sound recording in any way that can be deciphered later.

You can't be serious, Bob. There are cameras and audio devices everywhere in those situations, especially on every congressman. Everyone has a camera pointed in some direction.

How well it will continue to work will depend on the level of violence that shows up in the country and how actively the Right Wing continues to encourage it.

Ok, Bob, let me ask you this. I would like for you to try to think of your response in an honest manner, devoid of bias, which I know you can do if you want to.


The congressman volunteered the unsolicited information that he had allegedly been called the N word, an event not witnessed, reported, or viewed by anyone else. Why would he do that? What are the positive and negatives of such an act by a congressman?

The negatives are easy. It is a comment that could infuriate and enrage blacks. It could create civil unrest and set off violence that a certain section of blacks look for as excuses to revolt. it could set a racial tone, pitting blacks against whites.

The positives? Well, it could label Tea Partiers as bigots. It could draw sympathy for Obama and democrats, I suppose. I can't think of any other positives. So which avenue would you expect a congressman, a person committed to do what is good for the country, to travel down? One would think that he would choose the path most beneficial to the country, wouldn't you? This congressman chose the opposite path. He was willing to promote and cause civil unrest for nothing more than the opportunity to tarnish the Tea Partiers. One could almost think him disappointed that at least one riot didn't break out in some city. These are not the actions of a decent congressman, or even man. This is not the action of a man doing what is best for the country. This is called promoting civil unrest, Bob, and it is done by democrats. The level of violence that shows up down the road will be on their shoulders.

JenniferMaxwell
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104 posted 04-01-2010 09:04 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I already posted one video showing it did happen and even pointed out the time 44/45 sec in where it was clearly audible.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SCs6pSE8_I&feature=related

Members of Congress were spat upon, subjected to racial and homophobic slurs. Bricks were hurled through their office windows. They received death threats and threats directed at their families.

There are videos, audio tapes of calls made to their offices and homes, letters, police reports showing the threats were indeed made.
Now Republicans/teabaggers want to blame the victims for speaking out, for asking that the rhetoric of hatred be toned down before someone actually got hurt? Typical Rovian tactics - very sad and very sick.

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105 posted 04-01-2010 09:13 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, I just listened to it 5 times, replaying the section you pointed out, Jennifer, and I couldn't hear it.

Can anyone else?


Yes, the rhetoric of hatred should always be toned down...unless creating more hatred is the goal.
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106 posted 04-01-2010 09:14 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     You're asking me a "why would he do it?" question, Mike, and  you ask me in terms of saying that I can answer you objectively, if I try.  

     If this is the incident that I remember, there may not have been a camera or a tape-player there, but there actually was a Capitol Policeman.  The Capitol Policeman apparently witnessed the incident, if I recall correctly, and made an arrest.  The Congressman refused to press charges.  He was unhappy about being called the name, but understood that a certain amount of abuse comes with the territory.  The Congressman tried to play the incident down, not up, which was why, I suppose, there were not widespread outbreaks in response.

     I would not have been happy about it either.

     The tone in Congress has been less than civil.  It was only a couple of years since one of the Texas  (I think it was Texas) delegates spoke of Barney Frank as Barney F-- in public.  It wasn't all that long ago that you yourself posted a video here that a couple of us objected to that featured a narrator slapping his hand with a bat while he was talking about Congressman Frank in unflattering terms.  The video went through a bunch of other democrats in highly unflattering fashion as well.  You thought this was simply good sport, for the most part and had trouble understanding what the upset was about.

     Now you expect the rest of the country to believe that The Republicans, who find this sort of thing apparently perfectly good fun to do with those who disagree with them, have suddenly grown sensitivity when they speak of it being done to themselves?  Have you been speaking out against it right along?  This is from the same party that believes that torture is perfectly good treatment for prisoners under their care.

     These are examples of Republican values about violence and exploitation of others, values that Republicans have argued for openly in elections and pushed into legislation.  Treating other people as things, acting in a dehumanizing fashion toward them, provoking and instigating violence for immediate gain, heedless of long-term consequences.  I saw no evidence of Republicans trying to put these values aside by, say, offering some sort of positive and mutually beneficial health care program for the American people.  I see no evidence of Republicans refraining from demonizing The President and the Democratic members of Congress.  I see only a wish to sidestep the consequences of the anger of voters over the incivility and potential violence.

     That, I predict, will pass quickly enough, and with that, theRepublican rhetoric will quickly return to its usual level of rage and vitriol.  This seeming concern is at best temporary.  The Republicans have an election to fight, and they really know only one way to fight them.  I predict it will not be pretty.
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107 posted 04-01-2010 09:18 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, I got no answer to my question but I really didn't expect one. I gave it a try. It's a shame you avoided it completely but I understand why.

We will just have to agree to disagree.
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108 posted 04-01-2010 09:42 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Rovian tactics, so predictable  1. attack the messenger, 2. kill the message.
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109 posted 04-01-2010 09:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Wow, Jennifer, you're tougher on Bob than I was!
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110 posted 04-01-2010 10:03 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

3. repeat 1 & 2  
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111 posted 04-01-2010 10:58 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     But Mike, the situation was not as you described it.  You offered a "How many time a week do you beat your wife?" sort of question, then act put out when I tell you that my wife remains unbeaten.

     I notice you don't dispute my account.  

     I offer you again a chance to do so.  Perhaps I don't have my facts straight, and a solid correction with appropriate references would then allow me to give you an answer.  Short of that, you'd be asking me to respond to a fiction as though it were reality.

     Why in Heaven's name would I wish to do that?  And why would you want me to?  It makes no sense.
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112 posted 04-01-2010 11:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No sense beating a dead horse, Bob. The situation was exactly as I presented it and you went all the way to prisoner torture to get away from it. I asked for your objective response and you couldn't or wouldn't give it.
The conversation  has run it's course. Have a nice evening.
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113 posted 04-01-2010 11:10 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/6239001/2/istockphoto_6239001-dummy-spit.jpg
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114 posted 04-02-2010 02:12 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I gave you a chance to correct my facts.  A denial is not a correction of facts.  It offers no new information, no data, no references and no new logic.  It is an impoverished reassertion of of a position which has already been addressed and exposed as "begging the question," a logical dead end, and a classical logical fallacy.

     Once again, I offer you the chance to correct my facts or offer a new perspective so that I might construe your request as something other than begging the question and offer an answer in you terms...  If I am as off the mark as you suggest, this ought to be a snap.
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115 posted 04-02-2010 08:20 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ah, Bob....

The using of the n word is unsubstantiated. No one heard it. There is no video of it. As a matter of fact, one republican has offfered a 10,000 offer to anyone who could show anything to substantiate it. No one has been able to. The congressman offered his version of it unsolicited. Those were the facts that I presented, the ones you claim is wrong. Show me where.

The only "fact" ypu appear to have presented with regards to the question is there actually was a Capitol Policeman.  The Capitol Policeman apparently witnessed the incident, if I recall correctly, and made an arrest.. Apparently? If you recall correctly? That's your fact? Show me a link or proof validating that "fact". What is the arrestable charge for using the N word, anyway? I didn't dispute your "facts" because there was no fact to dispute.


Actually, don't bother. You have show by your replies that any objective thought relative to this question is beyond your capabilities. What you have shown is that you will go to any lengths to avoid answering it and that your disdain for  democrats is so great that objectivity is impossible. There is no need for us to continue and I won't. I will let other readers of this thread judge whether my facts are valid or not and whether my question was a fair one. Don't bother taunting me to continue. The merry-go-round has come to an end. I thought perhaps we could have a reasonable discussion on this point but I see that expecting that was expecting too much. I won't make that mistake again.

Have a good day.
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116 posted 04-02-2010 10:28 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

witnessed, reported and viewed
but if you didn't see it on faux news
pretend it really didn't happen -
put beans in your ears, your head in the sand
and just keep on teabagging.
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117 posted 04-02-2010 11:16 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I also listened several times to the time-frame given by Jennifer in the link and I couldn't hear it either, Michael. I don't know if Grinch could hear it as he didn't reply to Jen's question about it that I can see, so I guess he probably couldn't either or maybe he just didn't see her question.

Andrew Breitbart has upped his offer from $10K to $100K for evidence of the alleged racial slur. It will be interesting to see if there are any takers.
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http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=135145

Obama is getting in on the act now to try to discredit the Tea Partiers.
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119 posted 04-02-2010 01:55 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell


'Armageddon'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pUeDfoukpk
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120 posted 04-02-2010 02:05 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

He's very talented...at mocking those who disagree with him and obfuscation.

No, we aren't likely to see big changes in 3 to 6 months as we are still sitting in the doctor's office...the doctor of our choice, leafing through the 'old people magazines' (can he become any more offensive?) The biggest changes will come in 2014 when the plans are actually implemented.
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http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmouth/2010/04/02/oreilly-explores-racial-makeup-tea-parties
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122 posted 04-02-2010 02:17 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Will you Tea Bag the Liberal Dems before they Tea Bag you
http://www.sodahead.com/living/will-you-tea-bag-the-liberal-dems-before-they-tea-bag-youwhat-a-display-of-faillol/question-286274/
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123 posted 04-02-2010 04:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

100,000?? Wow...Jenn, why are you standing in line to collect that? That's a lot of Tea!
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124 posted 04-02-2010 05:36 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     Here is what I have been able to determine after looking into the material more closely.

     A man was handcuffed and detained by Capitol police at the incident.  The Congressman did not identify the man as the man what spat at him and who used the offensive language.  Accounts differ as to why.  There is no dispute that the man was handcuffed and detained on the spot by the police.

     The Police later issues a statement saying that no arrests were made, which was true; because the Congressman did not identify the man, there were no grounds for holding him.

     That there were grounds for detaining the man has not been disputed.  Perhaps he would like to come forward at some point and do so.  That remains an interesting possibility, doesn't it?  I would very much like to see that happen.

     Initial press reports said that the N****r word had been used, and that Congressman Clearver had been spat upon.  Others in his party verified those events.  I have seen no reports of protestors in the area denying those events, though there may be some.  You would think they would be featured prominently in the opposition press.  Instead, what has been featured are reports of lack of video and sound recordings of the incident.  Video and sound recordings are difficult to achieve in a spontaneous fashion, as any professional will tell you, depending mostly on chance.

     Evidently the Republican offering the reward has declined to pay out for the testimony of the Democrats keeping Congressman Cleaver company and who were on that spot.  Evidently he has not found any demonstrators who were willing to report evidence that the contrary, and the reports are reduced to being negative reports of what video didn't capture.  Evidently the reasoning is that if it wasn't on video and recorded on tape, then it wasn't real.


     This apparently doesn't carry over to Republican notions of weapons of Mass destruction, which many Republicans still believe to be real despite similar lack of evidence.  

     You asked me to show you where your facts were wrong.  See the above.

For a more detailed run through of the process, I offer you the sources through which I tracked these details:


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/03/20/90772/rep-john-lewis-charges-protesters.html


http://wchbnewsdetroit.com/detroit/angelohenderson/rep-andre-carson-and-rep-john-lewis-called-the-n-word-15-times-rep-emanuel-cleaver-was-spat-on-by-anti-health-care-reform-protest or-what-does-these-times-remind-you-of/

Kristie Greco, spokeswoman for Democratic Whip Jim Clyburn, D-S.C., said a protester spit on Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, D-Mo., who is black and said police escorted the lawmakers into the Capitol. Cleaver’s office said he would decline to press charges, but Sgt. Kimberly Schneider of the U.S. Capitol Police said in an e-mail later: “We did not make any arrests today.”

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,589776,00.html


     I trust they meet with your approval.

quote:

The only "fact" ypu appear to have presented with regards to the question is there actually was a Capitol Policeman.  The Capitol Policeman apparently witnessed the incident, if I recall correctly, and made an arrest.. Apparently? If you recall correctly? That's your fact? Show me a link or proof validating that "fact". What is the arrestable charge for using the N word, anyway? I didn't dispute your "facts" because there was no fact to dispute.



     Again, I refer you to the articles above.  

     I would assume that the use of the word would not be grounds for arrest; but that the spitting would be.  The "arrest" was indeed reported, but those initial reports were mistaken.  I had remembered correctly.  The "arrest" turned into "detainment" in the Fox version, and you may check that version for your verification.  That is where I got mine.

     If there had been no fact to dispute, I would say so.

quote:

Actually, don't bother. You have show by your replies that any objective thought relative to this question is beyond your capabilities. What you have shown is that you will go to any lengths to avoid answering it and that your disdain for democrats [The boldface in the text was added by Bob Kaven to indicate Bob Kaven's emphasis] is so great that objectivity is impossible. There is no need for us to continue and I won't. I will let other readers of this thread judge whether my facts are valid or not and whether my question was a fair one. Don't bother taunting me to continue. The merry-go-round has come to an end. I thought perhaps we could have a reasonable discussion on this point but I see that expecting that was expecting too much. I won't make that mistake again.




     I absolutely love your Freudian slip here, Mike.  I love the comment about objectivity.

     The facts are fairly clear.  At your request, I backed up and reviewed them, and I presented them with references.  If more information becomes available as time goes on, then it stands to reason, my point of view may well change to fit the facts; but these are the facts as they appear to me now.

     It appears that Representative Cleave was abused verbally and physically, and his assailant was detained.  The Representative, whatever his reasons, declined to press charges, and his assailant was released.  There were witnesses in the Congressman's party.  There may well have been witnesses in the crowd who could have exculpated the assailant, but if so, they have not come forward.  The assailant has not pressed charges for any sort of rough or unreasonable treatment.  One is left to wonder why; if the statements made by the publicity arm of the Radical Right is correct, he certainly should have.

     I continue to suggest that you would have me beg the question by asserting that the Congressman did something wrong.  I say to you that I see no evidence that he did. Only more Republican flummery.

 
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