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Passions in Poetry

Politics or just plain hatred?

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JenniferMaxwell
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75 posted 03-23-2010 09:22 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“If you’re looking for a handout you’re in the wrong end of town. Nothing for free over here, you have to work for everything you get.”
http://cdn.crooksandliars.com/files/uploads/2010/03/dispatchvideo1_3e8b6.jpg

Cicero meets Bob?

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76 posted 03-23-2010 10:06 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell


"The Republicans fought long and hard for people's right to wait three hours in an emergency room for someone to take their blood pressure, and they went down to defeat, and now they should stop and rethink their Waterloo strategy. ... If you choke on your shoe during a speech in the House of Representatives, you'll be whisked away to Walter Reed, and specialists will extract your hoof from your mouth and your head from your colon and clean you up and all for a tiny annual premium. It does not behoove men who are enjoying a huge pork sandwich to deny a few pork rinds to others and to grin in the process..."

Garrison Keillor
http://www.salon.com/news/healthcare_reform/index.html?story=/opinion/keillor/2010/03/23/healthcare_in_america_landmark_bill

Denise
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77 posted 03-23-2010 10:26 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
how did Denise get the pieces of misinformation that she's been waving around in the postings she's made since yesterday?


Bob? Really? Is that what I have been doing?

I had a lovely afternoon thinking that we had come to a sort of cordial meeting of the minds, as much as is possible between the two of us anyway, and then I come home from work to read this? I'm disappointed, to say the least.
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78 posted 03-23-2010 11:18 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Fox News, health care, and the right-wing nervous breakdown

“This televised, incoherent meltdown has gone way beyond sore loserdom. Or even sore loserdom on steroids. This hasn't just been more of the usual Democrats-are-crooks type of whining that Fox News has turned into an art form since Obama's inauguration. And it's gone far beyond the usual scare tactics that the cable channel has trademarked. (Recent on-screen graphics: "Will the health bill ruin the economy?" and "Does Obamacare mean millions more jobs destroyed?")

Instead, this bout of spastic lashing out has been unique even by the previous standard adopted by Beck, who, on the eve of the health care vote, likened Democrats to Al Qaeda terrorists who were trying to bring America to its knees from the inside.

Because apparently when conservatives lose consecutive nationwide election cycles, thereby allowing Democrats to set the legislative agenda, conservatives' objections render passing bills a criminal act, and "tyranny" threatens to topple our democracy.

So how did it all go so terribly wrong for health care haters?
My hunch is that over the past few months, the right-wing media, along with self-adoring Tea Party members, made the mistake of believing their own hype.

They fastidiously constructed their own parallel universe and convinced themselves that last summer's mini-mobs at local town hall forums had defeated health care reform. They thought their rowdy show of force, complete with Nazi and Hitler posters, and even some protesters parading around with loaded guns, had changed the debate.
http://mediamatters.org/columns/201003230001
Bob K
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79 posted 03-24-2010 02:04 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

quote:

With one stroke of the pen he has essentially taken over the healthcare/insurance industry and the student loan industry. Government will now be calling the shots, coming between the doctor and patient, authorizing or denying treatment. Senior Citizens will be hit the hardest.




     I thought we came to a meeting of the minds as well, Denise; that doesn't mean that you get to say this sort of thing without at least a little bit of reality testing thrown in.  

     Where is you back-up for any of this sort of statement?   How has "he" taken over both the health care and the insurance industries?  Unless you perhaps think that regulation and take-over are the same thing?  That "he" has taken over Denise because there is regulation that forbids her from creatively committing murder in the middle of Market Street , or cleverly liberating funds from her neighbors next door?  What an intolerable curtailment of your liberties!

     Or of the liberties of the Health Care industry or the insurance industry.  Nuts!  If they don't want to sell health care, nothing says they have to.  The public has a right to say what the conditions are that are acceptable if an industry wants right to a public market.  No unnecessary killing or maiming is a good start, which is how we got the pure food and drug laws in the first place.  It appears that industry is forcing us to be more and more particular as time goes on.  Thus we get, Oh, you mean we have to really really really test Thalidomide before we give it to pregnant women to calm them down.  We only thought you meant we sort of had to test it, and that birth defects between friends weren't such an enormous deal.

     How about Not dealing in bad faith.  You see, to me, not dealing in bad faith is one of those things that shouldn't have to be regulated, but the industry itself seems to have forced the hand of the public.  To me, for example, somebody should not have to lose their health insurance because they've, say, been raped; but rape can be "a pre-existing condition," that can get your insurance discontinued.  You should have to make an insurance company continue to pay for folks who've been raped, should you?  I'd call that bad faith.

     Until now, many insurance companies have apparently been calling it good business.

     Thalidomide, by the way, is now back in use, but for other purposes only, and its use for pregnant women is not allowed.

     So Denise, when your statements sweep like the one's I've quoted, yeah, I call them misinformed or disinformed.  More likely disinformed statements, as in, I believe you've been lied to, and you've believed the lies.

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80 posted 03-24-2010 07:53 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Rape is a pre-existing condition that can get your insurance canceled?? Never heard that one before.

Denise, you forgot to mention the takeover of the student loan industry. I had wondered how government takeover of student loans fitted into the health care bill until a congressman explained it on tv last night. There is a 4.2% difference between the cost of the government loaning money and the amount of interest they charge the students. With almost 19 million students eligible for student loans, that comes to quite a sum. That money will now go directly to the government, instead of the banking industry and be used, in part, to finance the health care bill. The government's excuse for the takeover is that they feel banks should not benefit from loans made to students....so the government will benefit instead! It is estimated by COngressman Mitchell that this change will cost students 1500-1800 dollars more in interest than they would have paid with the banks in charge.

So add student loans as another government takeover, along with GM and the others. The list is growing and, no doubt, will continue to grow as long as Obama is in charge.
JenniferMaxwell
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81 posted 03-24-2010 12:05 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"Tea Party Is The Home Of The Angry White Woman"
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/assets_c/2010/03/pitchfork-protester-cropped-proto-custom_2.jpg
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/poll-tea-party-is-the-home-of-the-angry-white-woman.php?ref=fpb

JenniferMaxwell
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82 posted 03-24-2010 12:20 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Rape Victim's Choice: Risk AIDS or Health Insurance?     http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/21/insurance-companies-rape-_n_328708.html

Big Changes Coming to Student Loans http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/paying-for-co  llege/2010/03/24/big-changes-coming-to-student-loans.html?PageNr=1
Bob K
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83 posted 03-24-2010 12:53 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Thanks for the references, Jennifer, I appreciate the effort.

     Mike?
Denise
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84 posted 03-24-2010 03:16 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

We agree on one thing, Bob. There is a lot of misinformation, disinformation and lying going on. We disagree on which side the fence the majority of it's coming from though.

Mike, I long for the good old days. They weren't perfect but they were better than this nightmare.
JenniferMaxwell
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85 posted 03-24-2010 03:46 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Palin tells followers to ‘reload’ and ‘aim for’ Democrats

Salon's Joan Walsh - "But in a country where angry right-wingers carry guns to see the president speak, and spit on African-American congressmen, I thought it was a chilling statement. Will any Republican denounce Palin's language?"
http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0324/palin-gun-imagery-attack-democrats/

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86 posted 03-24-2010 03:59 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Joan Walsh needs to learn how to read.
JenniferMaxwell
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87 posted 03-24-2010 04:02 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Threats linked to health votes prompt security
At least 10 Dems receive threats; gas line cut at Perriello brother's home

At least 10 House Democrats are receiving access to increased security after receiving threats linked to their votes on the health care overhaul bill signed into law on Tuesday

House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said at a Capitol Hill press conference that he is concerned by a rash of at least four incidents of vandalism targeting lawmakers who voted to approve the legislation, which did not receive any Republican votes.

Concern about possible violence escalated Wednesday after a severed gas line at the home of a Democratic lawmaker's brother was discovered.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36020850/ns/politics-capitol_hill
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88 posted 03-24-2010 05:45 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



      Denise, sorry you think that way.  Which statements, attributed to Democrats, do you see as misinformation or disinformtion?  There must be some that really are bogus, even from my point of view,  since, as you said, there are some nut-cases in every party doing and saying nutty things.

     But surely you don't believe that the Republicans are exempt from the same principles that you've so clearly and — I believe — accurately stated as general principles governing both Democrats and Republicans both, as well as whomever else is on the scene.  There are loony tunes at every picnic is the way I'd put it.  You're usually more lady-like about things.

     It's a question of which things are disinformation and misinformation and where.

     For example, that this bill is a government take-over of health care, which seems to be one of your thoughts, and that this is socialism and communism rolled into one.

     My preference would be a more socialistic approach, one with a single payer health-plan, even a plan closer to the English National Health Plan, where most of the hospitals were owned and run by the government, and so on.  This bill doesn't give it to me.

     What this bill does give is more to the wretched private sector insurance companies, drat them, 32 million more customers.  It gives them a guaranteed market for their wares and  money in the bank for the private sector for profit part of the health care economy.  It does make them pay for it by making sure that they won't turn down people with pre-existing conditions, and that it won't kick people off the plans if they get sick.  

     I don't like the insurance industry at all, but they are private sector, and nobody's taken them over.  If only the government would put those jokers out of the private health care business, except for  the bells and whistles plans, and took over supplying a decent level of care, I'd feel better.  But then, I'm not Congress.

     Thoughts, Denise?
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89 posted 03-24-2010 09:26 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Pick any statement that you like, Bob, made by any of them. Chances are good it will fall into one of those catagories.
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90 posted 03-24-2010 09:43 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Rep. Louise Slaughter received an assassination threat against the children of lawmakers who supported health care reform. I don't mind reporting that, mixed in with the usual array of angry far-right blasts, I've received several death threats via email. One email ended with a warning that I should "check on the kids."

It's inexcusable and it's unforgivably irresponsible how top-shelf conservative players like Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and even some members of the congressional leadership are using coded and not-so-coded language that speaks directly to a small, but trigger-happy right-wing. Unlike the policy-driven arguments made by mostly pacifistic liberals during the Bush years, this language is a direct and precise emboldening of right-wing extremism -- and terrorism. And the behavior from certain elements of the far-right can be defined as such. It's terrorism. No gray area here. Right-wing terrorism.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/right-wing-terrorism-stok_b_511787.html
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91 posted 03-24-2010 09:59 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Disillusioned, overall, Denise?  Sorry to catch you in a mood like that.  Hope you feel better.
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92 posted 03-24-2010 11:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

There you have it. Palin, Beck and congressional republicans are terrorists who want their followers to start shooting democrats. I'm going to stop wrapping my garbage in the huffington post. It's an insult to the garbage.
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93 posted 03-24-2010 11:22 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Rachel Maddow- Emboldened extremist right incites violence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blrO3J0CmN0
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94 posted 03-25-2010 12:24 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Rachel Maddow On The Lunatic Right's Intimidation Tactics & The GOP's Culpability http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNHZNYoy5tk
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95 posted 03-25-2010 01:40 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Mike, I'm not sure what you're saying here.  Are you saying that Palin isn't issuing maps with crosshairs sketched in over states where legislators voted for the health care bill, "targeting" them.  A nice quiet x would have worked, don't you think?  A Checkmark?  Something that doesn't involve guns and telescopic sights?

     The Democrats got upset at the Bush administration without talking about shooting government officials, you know.  President Obama is too polite to put the last administration on trial for treason, and the loonies on the right are polishing up their rifles.  Yee-haw!

     The Democrats get what's essentially the 1993-94 Republican Health Care bill passed, and now the Republican think it's cause to declare open season on Democrats.  They toss bricks through the windows of democrats.  They threaten the lives of Democrats.  

     Yep, I gotta say, Abe Lincoln's really proud of you guys.  How stands the Union?

     Well, Abe, your party's tearing it apart.  Other than that, pretty good.

     Don't blame the Huffington Post, Mike, it's the news that stinks like week old fish.  That sulfurous smell you've got in your nose is good old fashioned hatred, and it's rolling in from the right so thick that nobody can see a thing.  The fog's smeared everything decent in sight.  
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96 posted 03-25-2010 09:16 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Obama is too polite to put the last administration on trial for treason? He's put them on trial for everything. It's all Bush's fault, Bob. Didn't you know that? Our national debt quadrupling under Obama's watch is Bush's fault. The unemployment percentage going up 25% under Obama's watch is all Bush's fault. The fact that we are so buried in debt is all Bush's fault. The paint peeling from the White House facade is Bush's fault. Well, guess what? Obama has just taken over. The health care bill, and every effect it has on the economy of the country, is all Obama. He will sink or swim with it. There is no "Bush's fault" excuse he can use here.

That sulfurous smell you've got in your nose is good old fashioned hatred,

I agree, Bob. Hatred, as well as admiration, has a reason. Ask yourself what it is. You can condemn violence and I will agree with you wholeheartedly, but I won't condemn their hatred. It has been earned....earned by the most audacious, arrogant, self-serving unholy trio of leaders this country has ever seen. The administration has completely turned it's back on and closed it's ears to the American people and that can foster hatred. Turn your back on your wife, refused to listen to her, walk away from her, make the household decision without asking for her input or advice, spend the household money on whatever you want without giving her a voice in it...and see how long it takes for that love turns to hatred.

The democrats have earned the feelings toward them.
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97 posted 03-25-2010 10:55 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think perhaps Maddow and Company may have dropped one too many hits of acid during their college years. They don't come any whackier! They certainly do make for good entertainment!

I don't recall them being upset last week when the pro-aborts were threatening Stupack, nor do I recall them being upset during the 2008 campaign when McCain's offices were vandalized. Just some more of their selective outrage, very common with them.

This article says it all about current allegations of violence:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mithridate-ombud/2010/03/24/medias-myth-right-wing-violence
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98 posted 03-25-2010 11:10 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"I think perhaps Maddow and Company may have dropped one too many hits of acid during their college years"

Wrong generation for acid, off by about 30 years. Senior moments, so darn cute.

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99 posted 03-25-2010 11:27 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

quote:

Obama is too polite to put the last administration on trial for treason? He's put them on trial for everything.



     The difference between sentence one and sentence two is that there is a change in subject, Mike.  Also, you changed the meaning of the word "trial" between sentences.  In sentence one, where you're paraphrasing me, "trial" is used as a literal legal proceeding; in sentence two, you use the word metaphorically, as in trying to hold the folks responsible for their actions they're responsible for causing in an ethical or moral but not legal sense.  

     This is not a very telling point unless you can say that the folks being held responsible actually feel any regrets about what they've done.  It's not clear to me that you could call any of the folks in the last administration anything but smug and pleased with their actions, at least from the observations I've made.  Enough of the country felt them responsible to vote the party out of office, but you could hardly claim that as being anything but a spasm of momentary disgust unless it's repeated on a fairly regular basis.

     In the meantime, you're confounding rhetoric and reality.  

quote:


It's all Bush's fault, Bob. Didn't you know that? Our national debt quadrupling under Obama's watch is Bush's fault. The unemployment percentage going up 25% under Obama's watch is all Bush's fault. The fact that we are so buried in debt is all Bush's fault. The paint peeling from the White House facade is Bush's fault. Well, guess what? Obama has just taken over. The health care bill, and every effect it has on the economy of the country, is all Obama. He will sink or swim with it. There is no "Bush's fault" excuse he can use here.



     I won't go 100% of the way with you here, but I think you're pretty much right all the way down the line.   The Republicans have made it very clear that they want no part of insurance reform or health care reform and have fought it bitterly.   My personal wish is that it would have been a more robust Liberal or further left bill instead of the pale, Republican Lite piece of work that it is, but this is what my party fought for, and it's what we've got, provided the thing holds together for another go-around through the House.  It's a Democratic love-child with Bob Dole.  I shudder to think of it, but there it is.  I hope it makes it through into Law intact.

quote:


     You can condemn violence and I will agree with you wholeheartedly, but I won't condemn their hatred. It has been earned....earned by the most audacious, arrogant, self-serving unholy trio of leaders this country has ever seen. The administration has completely turned it's back on and closed it's ears to the American people and that can foster hatred. [. . .]  The democrats have earned the feelings toward them.




     I condemn the violence.  I condemn what the Republicans have done to stir it up.  I condemn the tactics that they use to keep it stirred up.  There is no justification for stirring up hatred with the number of lies that the Republicans have encouraged and with the language that many of them are using.  There is no excuse for not having corrected the lies that they've been spreading that are the root of this mess.  I lay every act of violence directly at the feet of those voicing those lies and those not combatting them actively.  There is to my mind no excuse for saying that I condemn the violence but understand the hatred when the hatred is based on deliberate propaganda that could have and should have been withdrawn at any time.

     This is a Democracy, where we are supposed to talk our differences out.  It is not a country where we are supposed to take guns to the street  and act like some third world dictatorship overthrowing an elected government because United Fruit doesn't like their export policy or is upset because that new Government wants land reform.

     Color Bob upset.
 
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