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Politics or just plain hatred?

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Denise
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50 posted 03-21-2010 10:27 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I didn't call anyone a liar, Jen. I said that I would need to see proof of the allegation myself to believe it. The people I called clowns aren't necessarily innocent since they are the ones who have been alledged to have slurred the congressmen. And there is the possibility that if anything did happen they could have been plants from the opposition. I've personally witnessed trouble makers at rallies in the past, and it was clear what they were trying to do. They weren't Tea Partiers.

Nowhere have I slurred you in our conversations, Jen.
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51 posted 03-22-2010 01:59 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     WELL, why not take a deep breath, and a step back, and then another deep breath on top of that.  If folks in the TEA Party want to control their appelation, that's their right.  I get upset at the Democratic Party being called the Democrat Party.  I've been back and forth with people for years about what to call People of Color.  If somebody finds a usage I have for their political Party offensive, I'll stop using it and do so graciously.  

     I will ask what they would like me to substitute for that term so that the conversation may continue in a reasonably civil fashion.  I will say that I'm sorry for any hurt feelings.  It's easy to get hung up on these things, as you can see from your experience dealing with the issue now in what I hope will be an unaccustomed position.  

     I can't speak for Jennifer here, but that's how I feel about the business.

     As for Denise's comments about proof, I think that it might be helpful to go back and look a bit more closely at some of the stuff Jenn did post in terms of references earlier about the incident.  If you look at the Mother Jones article, you'll notice some more specific references appended, included a reference to an arrest being made by the Capital Police.  The Congressman in question did not press charges, but the arrest was made.  As to Denise's denial that somebody in the TEA Party would not have made a comment to Barney Frank about his sexuality, I find her consideration for her fellow members touching but wildly optimistic.  The number of folks willing to voice such rough and ready language is high, and the likelihood that there would be none among the ranks of her Party's loyalists is vanishingly small.  

     Truth be told, I would have no idea how to calculate such a thing, so I suppose it could theoretically be possible.

     In short, however, it looks as though the incidents described appear to be real and the TEA Party members appear to be human.  With some of the assertions being made on their behalf over the past few days — never any violence, never an arrest, instant transport into heaven on the back of angels (joking about that second one) — I was beginning to wonder.

other Jones article
Bob K
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52 posted 03-22-2010 02:02 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

  
     A quote from an early book by James Welch called Riding The Earthboy 40

"Albert Heavy Runner was never civic."

     Just thought you'd like to know.
Denise
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53 posted 03-22-2010 08:24 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It seems to me you are making a few assumptions and putting words in my mouth, Bob. Why are you doing that?
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54 posted 03-22-2010 11:23 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

To John Lewis: An Open Letter to an American Hero

“And although it's a stretch to say that all tea party protesters are patent racists, Saturday's incidents pretty much sealed the deal- fear of racial difference animates the "Tea Party Movement." These people claim to be about the notion of "freedom," but they not only do not seem to support the concept for those different from them, but the individuals they single out for their most vitriolic attacks are often those who have done the most for the cause of freedom for all. I would say it's ironic, but that would imply that tea partiers understand the term "freedom." So instead, I'll say it's surreal.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cynthia-boaz/to-john-lewis-an-open-let_b_507869.html


Denise
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55 posted 03-22-2010 11:32 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I guess you think you've offered proof of your previous allegations or proof of the smear that the Tea Partiers are racially motivated. You haven't.

The left can no longer ignore them, so now they are in discredit and attack mode. So very, very predictable. Enjoy the game.

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56 posted 03-22-2010 11:42 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Not very pretty in pink:

Angry Teabaggers protest Health Care Reform at US Capitol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VpOnOspBZo
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57 posted 03-22-2010 12:40 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


       Which assumptions, Denise?

      I am certainly exaggerating the reputation of the Tea Party Folks for non-violent protest that have been presented by various folks, including T-bear, recently.  If you feel that I am placing words in your mouth, I'm sorry.  My understanding was that you shared these views, which I do feel to be exaggerated, and I would and do say I'm sorry for mis-characterizing you.  But I don't actually have the impression that my understanding about this is incorrect.

     What is it that that you think I'm saying about you that you feel is putting words in your mouth?  I've been trying to be fairly careful about this, and wouldn't want to do that if I can help it, and certainly not accidently if I can avoid that.

     So, where have I said the things that bother you, and what are they?  If I mean to be saying things, I should at least know what they are and be able to explain them.

  
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58 posted 03-22-2010 03:55 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It's not difficult, Bob. All you have to do is go back and read what I actually said, and read again what you think I said.

Have a nice day!  
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59 posted 03-22-2010 05:45 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Denise, if I'd understood what you meant, I wouldn't have asked.  My ignorance runs deep and wide, and I do try to ask about it.  Once again, What are you speaking about?
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60 posted 03-22-2010 07:56 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
As to Denise's denial that somebody in the TEA Party would not have made a comment to Barney Frank about his sexuality, I find her consideration for her fellow members touching but wildly optimistic.


This is an example, Bob. I never said that. What I did say was that I would need to see proof of the comments allegedly directed at Frank and comments allegedly directed at members of the Democratic Black Caucus. These are serious allegations and therefore require some evidence. And as I already said, if they did happen I would denounce them, no matter where they came from.

But I also think it is wrong to try to mischaracterize the entire Tea Party movement, which some on the left are attempting to do, on the actions of a few looney-toons, whether based on a handful of over-the-top signs, or tasteless comments, if indeed some Tea Party participants did that. When you have millions of people involved there are bound to be a few nuts in the mix.

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61 posted 03-22-2010 09:01 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

There is a video of the incident where a homophobic slur was hurled at Barney Frank but since the video I posted earlier today showing a person being both verbally and physically attacked by a teabagger got no denouncement, no response at all, why bother posting another?

It isn't a question of a few signs or a few nuts. There's been a whole campaign of inciting hatred, threats of violence tinged with racism ever since Obama was nominated.

You've seen the video interviews asking teabaggers specific questions about the HCR legislation, to explain what exactly they objected to. Most of them had no answers other than the tag lines fed them by Beck, Limbaugh, Palin, etc.

The level of fear, hatred or whatever it is that really drives them reached fever pitch over the weekend and mob mentality became more evident. What worries me is what's next on their agenda - watering the tree of liberty?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML_Ks6wIQWY

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As to Denise's denial that somebody in the TEA Party would not have made a comment to Barney Frank about his sexuality, I find her consideration for her fellow members touching but wildly optimistic.

This is an example, Bob. I never said that. What I did say was that I would need to see proof of the comments allegedly directed at Frank and comments allegedly directed at members of the Democratic Black Caucus. These are serious allegations and therefore require some evidence. And as I already said, if they did happen I would denounce them, no matter where they came from.

But I also think it is wrong to try to mischaracterize the entire Tea Party movement, which some on the left are attempting to do, on the actions of a few looney-toons, whether based on a handful of over-the-top signs, or tasteless comments, if indeed some Tea Party participants did that. When you have millions of people involved there are bound to be a few nuts in the mix.


     Ah, Denise, thanks for getting back to me about that.  I commented about checking the references that Jenn had quoted in more detail.  I found that there were references in some of the secondary references, especially the ones attached to the Mother Jones article, that were pretty solid.  One of them made reference to a Capitol Police person arresting  the gentleman alleged to have spat upon the Black Congressman, though the Congressman declined to press charges.  It is likely in my mind that the general misbehavior happened.  The past few days have been times of high temper and frustration, and expressions of outrage would not be surprising, though they would have been unfortunate.  I wasn't inclined to chase down the details and use them to be outrageous myself, and I'm still not, though I certainly will if you think it necessary.

quote:

As to Denise's denial that somebody in the TEA Party would not have made a comment to Barney Frank about his sexuality, I find her consideration for her fellow members touching but wildly optimistic.



       In calling me to task for attributing these intentions to you, you are, I see, correct.  You did not deny that somebody might make such a comment, and in fact quoted Mike Huckabee, who apologised for those folks who did make those comments.  You weren't clear about whether he gave the impression if he felt they were members of the TEA Party or not, and what exactly, he felt his connection with these folks might be.  But I think it was a responsible and decent thing for the man to do.  I'm impressed by him in this case.

     While you didn't say that nobody in the TEA Party would have done this sort of stuff — which I appreciate as well, by the way — your suggestion of what did happen was a bit troubling.  

quote:


I think there is also the possibility that these clowns were plants from the opposition (the left) in an attempt to give the Tea Partiers a black eye by giving them bad press.



and:

quote:


     From this video clip in this article of the time frame in question, it appears that the slurs were never uttered at all.



     Given the content of the last statement in particular, it seems that my interpretation that you would have trouble believing your fellows might behave badly is not entirely unwarranted.  At least I can understand why I could read it that way, even if you might have trouble understanding why I might have trouble reading it that way.

     What is unforgivable on my part is that I didn't give you credit for knowing that there are in fact bad apples everywhere, in every group and movement, including mine and your own.  This was crass and unfair of me, and you were correct in being upset with me about this.  I missed seeing a moment of the best of you, and that is a great loss on my part as well as a slight  of you, and one for which I must ask forgiveness.

     Thanks for listening, Bob Kaven

    
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63 posted 03-22-2010 10:56 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Authorities in Wichita and some other cities across the country are investigating vandalism against Democratic offices, apparently in response to health care reform.

Mike Vanderboegh, of Pinson, Ala., former head of the Alabama Constitutional Militia, put out a call on Friday for modern "Sons of Liberty" to break the windows of Democratic Party offices nationwide in opposition to health care reform. Since then, vandals have struck several offices, including the Sedgwick County Democratic Party headquarters in Wichita.

Over the weekend, a brick shattered glass doors at the Monroe County Democratic Committee headquarters in Rochester, N.Y. Attached to the brick was a note that said, "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice

Vanderboegh posted the call for action Friday on his blog, "Sipsey Street Irregulars." Referring to the health care reform bill as "Nancy Pelosi's Intolerable Act," he told followers to send a message to Democrats.

"We can break their windows," he said. "Break them NOW. And if we do a proper job, if we break the windows of hundreds, thousands, of Democrat party headquarters across this country, we might just wake up enough of them to make defending ourselves at the muzzle of a rifle unnecessary."

"What I was trying to get across was that people do not understand how on the edge of civil conflict this country is," he said.

http://www.kansas.com/2010/03/22/1237045/democratic-offices-in-wichita.html#ixzz0ixrY6bqr
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64 posted 03-22-2010 11:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I believe the country IS on the edge of civil conflict. That can happen when the government completely disregards the will of the people, as this one has. That can happen when deals are made in back rooms in secrecy instead of out in the open, which affects the lives of every American. That can happen when people see the congressmen they put into office sell themselves off to the highest bidder. If Americans were not like that, we would still be paying tribute to the Queen. Do I condone it? No. Do I understand it? Yes.

You have your change.
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65 posted 03-23-2010 01:44 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:

I believe the country IS on the edge of civil conflict. That can happen when the government completely disregards the will of the people, as this one has. That can happen when deals are made in back rooms in secrecy instead of out in the open, which affects the lives of every American. That can happen when people see the congressmen they put into office sell themselves off to the highest bidder. If Americans were not like that, we would still be paying tribute to the Queen. Do I condone it? No. Do I understand it? Yes.



Dear Mike,

     Tossing bricks through windows is illegal.  If you don't speak out against it, you do condone it.  If you don't like deals being done in private, behind closed doors, where were you when Dick Cheyney was meeting with the oil companies at the beginning of the first Bush administration, and through the entire following eight years when he refused to allow anybody to know what was going on.  

     We seem to be fairly clear that President Obama made a deal with the insurance companies and the drug companies not to push for a single payer system before this whole health Care campaign got underway.  I'm reasonably clear about it, anyway.  I thought you were fairly clear about it as well.  I was not and am not happy about that deal because I did want and still do want a single payer system.

     You, on the other hand, do not.

     I don't think the deal was particularly secret.  Nobody has denied it as far as I know, though I certainly may be wrong about that.  It was not deceptive, merely unpleasant.  I have a pretty good idea what was going on, as do you.  

     None of us have any idea what went on with Cheyney and the oil Companies.  None of us know to what degree that deal had anything to do with the Enron disaster and with the enormous debt that California, among other states, remains saddled with beyond what the ordinary economic downturn would have left us with.  And this is simply one of the many Republican deals of this type that we are still trying to understand and piece together at this late date because we really do not know what actually went on behind closed doors.

     In case you haven't been following the English investigations of the events up to the start of the Iraq War, by the way, it appears that my comments certainly include that as well.  Apparently those events have been unfolding in the U.K. Press for a while now, though they get almost no coverage here.

     The information as to what is happening here is not very secret at all.  The problem with our information is the amount of lying that goes on about the facts of the matter.

     The same Republicans who tell you that they don't know what's in the health care bill are the folks who have members on the committee that's supposed to be writing and discussing that bill.  They're supposed to be at each session.  They're supposed to be talking about each word of the bill and be in on  how the bill is written.  If they're not, why blame the Democrats?  It's not that they Republicans have been excluded, you know.  If the Republican congresspeople are there, then they should be keeping their fellows informed.

     What we're dealing with is not secrecy, it's actual Republican avoidance and unwillingness to be part of the legislative process that they've been paid to be a part of.

     It may be a principled stand, but that seems to be a pitiful excuse for ignorance, and a ridiculous excuse for sitting behind the stack of paper that represented the Bill in draft form and pretending that it was too much for them to master.  If it was too much for them to master, then they should have spent more time with the bill, exactly as they would with other bills that are of the same size but even more opaquely written, such as the PATRIOT Act, which they pressed into passage within a week or so and raised no such fuss about.

     The nobility of the stance they pretend to take here is a false nobility at best.  

     The American people have been kept up to date with the ongoing process of this bill during the year or so it's been winding its way through the Congress.  Sometimes the information has been more current, sometimes less, but it's been pretty much up to date with what the folks working on the bill itself seemed to know.  The bill has been slow to evolve.  The Democrats have been pushing hard, and the Republicans have been pushing back, and the fight has been, to my mind at least, best characterized as savage on both sides.  I believe that the rhetoric has been particularly savage on the Republican side; they have felt free to bring in every hot button issue they could find, including abortion, and they have worked up feelings to a fever pitch around that issue, and the issue of "death Panels" and the notion of socialized medicine — a long time favorite — and the notion of a government take-over of the health care system.

     I'd characterize this as being reasonably close to incitement to riot, and have little wonder that there are people who are running around at a hysterical pitch.  I think that if you get caught heaving a brick through a window as a political act, you ought to get fined and jailed, and your party ought to get fined as well.  You are responsible for your rhetoric, aren't you?

Sincerely, Bob Kaven

      
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Cheney - Bush - eight years....same attempt to point fingers in another direction, instead of addressing a current topic. Hasn't worked before and is not working now, Bob. We're discussing health care bills.

The information as to what is happening here is not very secret at all.
The same Republicans who tell you that they don't know what's in the health care bill are the folks who have members on the committee that's supposed to be writing and discussing that bill.


It seems inconceiveable to me that anyone would not consider these dealings secretive. Btw, what bill are you referring to? The final health care bill? Surely not because it hasn't been written yet, even after it's passage. Obama urged the House to pass a bill that was not even finalized, telling them that parts they found offensive would be changed and they had his word on it. Pelosi said, "We need to pass the health care bill so the people can see what's in it.", an amazing statement. Obama said on Wednesday in his interview with FOX that the bill would be posted "many days" before the vote so the American people could see it, quite a statement, since the vote was set up for Sunday. Not secretive? Is that why Republicans were not allowed in the finalization process or any of the back room dealings - because it was not secretive? This whole thing was handled the way college kids would plan a panty raid. The only times Obama had to back off was when dealings became public, like with Nebraska and Florida.

WASHINGTON – Tucked into President Barack Obama's health care bill are several 11th-hour changes that help major insurance companies and doctor-owned hospitals.

Among the beneficiaries, according to lobbyists and congressional aides, are Kaiser Permanente, the giant California-based insurance company; Geisinger Health Plan based in Pennsylvania; and doctor-owned health facilities in about a dozen states, including Ohio, Pennsylvania and Tennessee.

House leaders hoped to approve the revisions Sunday when lawmakers vote on the health care legislation. They were included in a 153-page bill revising the giant Senate-passed overhaul package, and in separate language that Democrats plan to add.

it was eliminated in the revisions bill.

The latest changes to the bill include:

_Tax-exempt insurers would have to pay a new fee levied on insurers on only half their premiums. Kaiser Permanente and Geisinger are both tax-exempt.

_An Aug. 1, 2010, deadline on new doctor-owned hospitals to apply to the government for eligibility to serve — and get paid for — Medicare patients would be extended to Dec. 31. Aides and lobbyists said this would help roughly 13 facilities. These include Mercy Hospital in Monclova, Ohio; Scranton Orthopedic Specialists in Dickson City, Pa.; and Paragon Rehabilitation in Goodlettsville, Tenn.

The three facilities are represented, respectively, by Democratic Reps. Marcy Kaptur of Ohio, Paul Kanjorski of Pennsylvania, and Bart Gordon of Tennessee. Gordon has switched to support the health legislation after opposing an earlier version and Kaptur said Sunday she would stick to her "yes" vote. Kanjorski hasn't indicated how he would vote. Aides to all three said the lawmakers had nothing to do with the provisions and their votes would not be affected by inclusion of the language.

_A new 2.9 percent excise tax on medical devices would be lowered to 2.3 percent. But it will be broadened to apply to some lower-cost devices it hadn't initially covered, though hearing aids, contact lenses and other items consumers buy retail would be excluded. According to one medical industry official, the changes were made at the insistence of Reps. Baron Hill and Brad Ellsworth, both Indiana Democrats, and Scott Murphy, D-N.Y., who are all now supporting the legislation.

_The 153-page bill would have allowed the state-owned Bank of North Dakota to continue making federally financed student loans to students, even though the health care overhaul ends that system nationally in favor of direct government lending. Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., who initially supported the exemption for the bank, decided to seek its removal when it was criticized, and revisions to the 153-page bill would delete that provision.
[URL=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100321/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_special_deals;_ylt=AkmnrkqLrZaZtMDdZ59gzxoEq594;_ylu=X3oDMTNodjE1YXY2BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMzIxL3VzX2hlYWx0aF9jYXJ lX3Nw]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100321/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_special_deals;_ylt=AkmnrkqLrZaZtMDdZ59gzxoEq594;_ylu=X3oDMTNodjE1YXY2BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMzIxL3VzX2hlYWx0aF9jYX JlX3Nw[/URL]  ZWNpYWxfZGVhbHMEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwM3BHBvcwM3BHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDaW5zdXJlcnNkb2N0

Those evil insurance companies getting tax breaks at the last minute? Quite a revelation.

  The American people have been kept up to date with the ongoing process of this bill during the year or so it's been winding its way through the Congress.

Yes, with everything except the facts. Why? There weren't any. In the town hall meetings when congressmen were asked specifics of the bill, the reply was that they couldn't answer because the bill had not been written yet. The American people were kept up to date with the fact that there was a process going on - that's about it. Obama has reneged on every promise to make facts public.

if you get caught heaving a brick through a window as a political act, you ought to get fined and jailed,

I agree. Also, if you get caught bribing or accepting a bribe, you should be fined and jailed, also. To not be able to understand civil unrest, Bob, would be not being able to understand most of world history.

Obama has succeeded in doing what Hitler and Bin Laden only dreamed about and he did it without firing a shot. He used bribes instead of bullets. The country is on the road to bankruptcy much faster than it would have been and the country, as we know it, will not survive. I feel blessed to have lived my life through the period of the country that existed then and I feel sympathy for the new generation and the ones that will follow.

Instead of the land of opportunity, we have become the land of entitlements.


You have your change
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I wasn't angry with you Bob, but you are forgiven.

I couldn't have said it better, Michael!
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Teabaggers' New Rallying Cry: 'Mrs. Obama, Hands Off Our Obesity!'
“
One day after the passage of an historic health care reform bill in the House of Representative, the Tea Party movement turned its attention to a new target today: First Lady Michelle Obama's campaign against obesity.

Carrying signs that read "Mrs. Obama, Hands Off Our Obesity," angry Teabaggers marched on the White House to accuse Michelle Obama, in the words of one protester, "of plotting to take the Big Macs out of our mouths."

"Being obese is one of our American core values," said Carol Foyler, a Teabagger from Toledo, Ohio who showed up for the march. "It's guaranteed by the Constitution."

Ms. Foyler said that Mrs. Obama's campaign against obesity was yet another example of the White House interfering in ordinary people's lives: "They want us all to be skinny like they are in Europe."

The Teabagger said that she would fight the First Lady's obesity campaign "because you know what happens when you get too thin? Your husband runs off with a tattoo model."

As the march reached the White House, Ms. Foyler said that the pro-obesity movement was already picking up steam: "Rush Limbaugh is definitely with us."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-borowitz/teabaggers-new-cry-mrs-ob_b_508683.html
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Watch it happen:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/live
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It's a sad, sad day for this country.

With one stroke of the pen he has essentially taken over the healthcare/insurance industry and the student loan industry. Government will now be calling the shots, coming between the doctor and patient, authorizing or denying treatment. Senior Citizens will be hit the hardest.

I hate what these people have done to my country.
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71 posted 03-23-2010 12:45 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/03/23/its_a_civil_war_what_we_do_now_104875.html
JenniferMaxwell
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72 posted 03-23-2010 03:44 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Friend --

I'm writing to you on a great day for America.

This morning, I gathered with members of Congress, my administration, and hardworking volunteers from every part of the country to sign comprehensive health care reform into law. Thanks to the immeasurable efforts of so many, the dream of reform is now a reality.

The bill I just signed puts Americans in charge of our own health care by enacting three key changes:

It establishes the toughest patient protections in history.
It guarantees all Americans affordable health insurance options, extending coverage to 32 million who are currently uninsured.
And it reduces the cost of care -- cutting over 1 trillion dollars from the federal deficit over the next two decades.

To ensure a successful, stable transition, many of these changes will phase into full effect over the next several years.
But for millions of Americans, many of the benefits of reform will begin this year -- some even taking effect this afternoon. Here are just a few examples:

-Small businesses will receive significant tax cuts, this year, to help them afford health coverage for all their employees.
-Seniors will receive a rebate to reduce drug costs not yet covered under Medicare.
-Young people will be allowed coverage under their parents' plan until the age of 26.
-Early retirees will receive help to reduce premium costs.
-Children will be protected against discrimination on the basis of medical history.
-Uninsured Americans with pre-existing conditions can join a special high-risk pool to get the coverage they need, starting in just 90 days.
-Insured Americans will be protected from seeing their insurance revoked when they get sick, or facing restrictive annual limits on the care they receive.

All Americans will benefit from significant new investments to train primary care doctors, nurses, and public health professionals, and the creation of state-level consumer assistance programs to help all patients understand and defend our new rights.

As I've said many times, and as I know to be true, this astounding victory could not have been achieved without your tireless efforts.

So as we celebrate this great day, I want to invite you to add your name where it belongs: alongside mine as a co-signer of this historic legislation. Organizing for America will record the names of co-signers as a permanent commemoration of those who came together to make this moment possible -- all of you who refused to give up until the dream of many generations for affordable, quality care for all Americans was finally fulfilled.

So, if you haven't yet, please add your name as a proud health care reform co-signer today:
http://my.barackobama.com/cosigner

Please accept my thanks for your voice, for your courage, and for your indispensable partnership in the great work of creating change.

History, and I, are in your debt.

President Barack Obama

Bob K
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73 posted 03-23-2010 07:21 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Is this the same bill that I'm aware of?

     If all those Republicans were sitting behind all that paper, smaller than many of the bills they've pushed through Congress themselves, how could they claim ignorance of the contents?

     Were the pieces of paper blank?

     If they were blank, then what were they objecting to?

     If the Republicans weren't lying, they how did Denise get the pieces of misinformation that she's been waving around in the postings she's made since yesterday?

     Pointing fingers is exactly what you've been doing here.  When I point out what your finger pointing needs to be compared with, all of a sudden you want to change the subject, you come up with a case of amnesia or find some other reason for not dealing with the material you've opened up.


     Is the Democratic method of running this health care and insurance business my favorite?

     No, it is not.  It excludes the single payer option.  I do not have the solution I would dearly like.  But the President and the congress have finally shown some backbone and look to be getting at least some of the potential benefits of this bill passed.  It's not everything I wanted, but it's a step forward in a hundred year old fight.   Teddy Roosevelt was the guy with the gumption to get it started, a reformer and a Republican, and you should be proud to have him as part of your historical record in the Republican Party.  I don't think his wing would get much approval, sadly, in this crowd.

     But I didn't vote for the President so that he would carry out my agenda down the line.  I expected the man to use his brain and to adapt and deal.  He's been a bit slow off the blocks to start that, but he seems to be doing it now.  Besides, he more moderate than I am, and his choices are going to be more moderate.  


quote:

Cheney - Bush - eight years....same attempt to point fingers in another direction, instead of addressing a current topic. Hasn't worked before and is not working now, Bob. We're discussing health care bills.



     And you brought up being secretive and how that leads to social unrest.  I think you might have forgotten that, or somehow figured that what you said wasn't germane to the discussion.   Why you would say something you thought inappropriate to reply to is a mystery to me.  The most obvious solution would be not to bring in material you think is off the point in the first place, let alone bring up material that places  you at such an obvious disadvantage.

Mike now quotes me as saying:

   "The information as to what is happening here is not very secret at all. The same Republicans who tell you that they don't know what's in the health care bill are the folks who have members on the committee that's supposed to be writing and discussing that bill."

And, in responding, Mike says,—
quote:

It seems inconceivable to me that anyone would not consider these dealings secretive. Btw, what bill are you referring to? The final health care bill? Surely not because it hasn't been written yet, even after it's passage. Obama urged the House to pass a bill that was not even finalized, telling them that parts they found offensive would be changed and they had his word on it. Pelosi said, "We need to pass the health care bill so the people can see what's in it.", an amazing statement. Obama said on Wednesday in his interview with FOX that the bill would be posted "many days" before the vote so the American people could see it, quite a statement, since the vote was set up for Sunday. Not secretive? Is that why Republicans were not allowed in the finalization process or any of the back room dealings - because it was not secretive? This whole thing was handled the way college kids would plan a panty raid. The only times Obama had to back off was when dealings became public, like with Nebraska and Florida.



     Come on, Mike.

     There is a common text that both Democrats and Republicans are working from in their day to day dealings on this bill.  The Republicans say, "I object to this and so language because it does not address the budgetary Process."  All stops while a debate and a ruling must be made on this point of order.

     That common text is the current text of the bill as it is being worked on in public, in front of both parties and anybody who chooses to watch on television.  Were there no common text, The Republicans would not know where to object and what to say, would they?  

     The new items that come up have to do with the accommodations that have to be made on the bill to bring it into compliance with the reconciliation process.  I would assume that it's too late for any serious horse-trading to be done, because that would ensure that the bill would have to make another House/Senate go-around to make sure that everything was to the satisfaction of the cooperative Republicans.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but there's never a point when a little extra rancor and poison can't be stirred into the pot, is there?


Next Mike presents an article designed to pour further gasoline on the fire.  However, a close reading of the text shows some fairly major problems.

     Should a reader actually wish to read the text, it is in Mike's posting above.

     The article proports to be about late inclusions in the Health care bill.  The implication is that we have been duped again.  It speaks about the terrible things included in this 153 page inclusion bill, and all about the horrible things the Democrats have planned for you now this bill is here.  

     About a third of the way into the text, however, the article drops this little bomb into the text.  I will quote it exactly because it's worth the read.

quote:


House leaders hoped to approve the revisions Sunday when lawmakers vote on the health care legislation. They were included in a 153-page bill revising the giant Senate-passed overhaul package, and in separate language that Democrats plan to add.

it was eliminated in the revisions bill.




     In plain English, that means, "We were just jerking your chain."

     Unperturbed,  the dingbats writing the article then go to great lengths to tell you which horrible provisions you might have had to deal with if the bill had actually been included.  They completely ignore the fact that the bill was thrown out and now deal with it as though it has become law.

     "The latest changes to the bill include" is what the text goes on to say, instead of the factual "might have included" that the situation called for.

     My conclusion is that the folks who write this stuff live in a horseshoes sort of world, where "close enough" counts and the distinctions between one thing and another fade into indistinguishability, and once again it's  Time to check the sheep entrails for the latest news from Capital Hill.  

     Mike's comment?

quote:

Those evil insurance companies getting tax breaks at the last minute? Quite a revelation.



     Indeed it would be, if the article Mike was quoting from hadn't already debunked that conclusion by saying that the 153 page bill had been junked.

     And provided that all the information that needed top be included had been included by knowing that 3 out of 13 hospitals had democratic representatives representing their districts.  It makes a guy wonder who represented the other 10 hospitals?  If they'd been represented by Democrats, surely the paper would have said so, and made another scathing point for the Home Team.

     If, however, as logic would suggest, the other 10 hospitals had been represented by folks from some other, unknown party, then what about the people of those districts, who might have gotten some needed medical services at the cost of some tax breaks to incentivize some doctors opening new hospitals to serve Medicaid patients?

     Logic would suggest that such hospitals would not go up in areas already crawling with well funded hospitals in physician rich communities, either, though I certainly could be wrong.  Looks like that Republican opposition is really in there doing its job for the people of this country, doesn't it, protecting them from better health care delivery and more jobs in rural and underserved areas?  There's the old Republican spirit for you!  Go get "em, guys!

     You might also want to research the bank in North Dakota, by the way, before you start to crow about how wonderful it is that you've gotten it out of the student loan business.  It's an unusual bank indeed.

Again, Mike quotes me:    

  "The American people have been kept up to date with the ongoing process of this bill during the year or so it's been winding its way through the Congress."

quote:

      Obama has reneged on every promise to make facts public.



     And yet, somehow, despite the Republican attempts at disinformation and misinformation, the facts seem to be in the public domain. And the Republicans seem to have enough of them clearly enough in sight to raise word by word objections to the contents of the bill.  Simply because their public position of the congressional Republicans is that the bill is unreadable does not mean that they haven't read it and studied it in detail, or at least their staffs have.  You can get it off the web, same as Grinch can.  The entire statement of its inaccessibility is silly.

     What is true is that it's been constantly in flux, and part of that is to satisfy the Opposition.

     The sad truth of the matter is that what we have in front of us is pretty much a Republican health care bill written pretty much as the Republicans wanted it circa 1993, when the Republicans thought it might actually be possible to have two party government in this country.  This is how far to the right that the country has been forced in almost twenty years, when the actual Republicans of today condemn what is essentially the work of their fathers as the depths of depravity and evil.

     Mike and I agree, it appears on brick throwing, and now it appears that we have agreement on bribes and bribing.  It seems a terrible pity that our agreement on this last point has been rendered moot by the Supreme court's opinion on financial contributions to political campaigns.  The actual thought of a corporation being a person I find bothersome.

     On the other hand, it does open up some possibility of prosecution on the basis of public indecency and lewdness when it comes to environmental behaviors.  Stuff that it's illegal for me to do in public ought to be illegal for a corporation to do in public, and that should include disposal of toxic waste.

     Ah, the every flighty mind!

quote:

      To not be able to understand civil unrest, Bob, would be not being able to understand most of world history.



     Why you old hippie you!  I never thought I'd hear you sympathize with such things!  Welcome!  Now, how about reading dome stuff on non-violent protest.  I have trouble seeing you on the side of the "grab a gun and shoot the nearest cop or soldier" folks.  I never liked them very much.  

     Civil disobedience, on the other hand, is something different, where you take action that is against the law and don't run off.  You take responsibility for it and allow yourself to be arrested, understanding that you've done something you feel is right, knowing that the society doesn't agree.

     So which one are you suggesting, Mike?  Or are you letting seriously wacky rhetoric sway you into saying stuff that isn't an exact statement of your position.  Is your position something entirely different than needs to be made clear, because advocating violent overthrow of the government is serious business, and that's what a lot of the fringe right wing folks are talking about.  You decided that Abraham Lincoln is the wrong guy to be proud of in the early Republican Party?  Not big on The Union?  

     The title of the thread is "Politics or Just Plain Hatred," Mike, and while it's about the Health care bill, a lot of the Just Plain Hatred seems to keep coming up.  Where is it coming from, for heaven's sake?

Balladeer
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74 posted 03-23-2010 09:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

There is no just plain hatred, Bob. There is always a reason and hatred is not the sole property of any one political party. You know that, of course.

I ran across this quote which applies so well to today...

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled,
public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead of living on public assistance."
      

                                                                 ---Cicero,
55 BC
 
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