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A Little Bit of Sanity Enters The Conversation

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Grinch
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25 posted 03-14-2010 06:34 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


But don't people like Beck serve a purpose Bob?

They help to define the line you don’t want to cross by highlighting what it takes to cross it – they, by pushing for retribution without further evidence of guilt, in effect, underline the exception that proves the rule.

It follows on from what I was saying earlier – people have bought into the idea hook line and sinker that what we’re talking about here are a bunch of terrorists. Seen in that light shooting them in the head, as proposed by Beck, doesn’t sound too extreme. In fact if they are terrorists intent on the destruction of America a shot in the head seems quite reasonable to some people.

You on the other hand are not sure that they are terrorists Bob, you need to be convinced one way or the other – you need evidence that they are terrorists above and beyond the fact that they’re being accused of being terrorists. If they aren’t terrorists shooting them in the head is an anathema, a barbaric crime in itself, that goes against everything your country stands for.

Here’s the rub Bob, I don’t think that you’re that different from Beck.

If the people accused of terrorism had a trial that in your eyes was fair and impartial and they were found guilty and proven to be a clear and present danger to America and Americans would execution seem that extreme?

quote:
Everybody has somebody who we think deserves the death penalty, if we're really pressed, whether we favor the death penalty or not.


I’ll take that as a no.

The only difference between you and Beck is that he’s already convinced and you haven’t reached that point yet.

I think they should be shot in the head too btw.


JenniferMaxwell
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26 posted 03-14-2010 08:23 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell


Work calls, have to dash quickie -

Sorry Bob, didn’t mean to twist your thread in a direction you didn’t want it to go. Just struck me that the sanity in the reaction to Cheney’s attack ad is rather small potatoes compared with the  insanity being spread on a daily basis by hate mongers like Beck. I think he’s dangerous, incites acts of violence by condoning them as he did in those two videos. There was a comment on one of the videos, said something like Beck represents the dark underbelly of the Tea Party movement. We’ve seen that dark underbelly swell when Tea Party members parade with guns, pitchforks and signs like this one. http://www.discourse.net/archives/pix/unarmed.jpg

Grinch
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27 posted 03-14-2010 10:45 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

http://coffeepartyusa.com/

When someone starts a Guinness Party – let me know.

Denise
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28 posted 03-14-2010 11:25 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Guns and pitchforks, Jen? Where is the evidence of that? I haven't even heard of one incidence of violence at any of the Tea Party gatherings, or at last summer's town hall events, other than the one guy getting beat up by SEIU thugs, for passing out flags outside a town hall meeting, or at the milion plus gathering last September 12th in D.C.

I guess folks have different definitons of success, Grinch!
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=127865
Grinch
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29 posted 03-14-2010 12:53 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

I agree entirely Denise – both the coffee percolators and the tea baggers are wasting their time.

Both groups are too busy trying to expand their target base by avoiding the issues to offer any real answers.

They'd be better off getting together and changing their name to the Cheese and Whine Party.

  
Bob K
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30 posted 03-14-2010 01:27 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I'm against the death penalty, Grinch.  That doesn't mean I don't have my list of people that I'd  be pleased to offer for not real executions.  I don't see Mr. Beck making any such distinction.  I would offer Mr. Beck himself for one of these not-for-real bumping off parties; it's a fun exercise in fantasy.

     Never in reality.  It would damage me.  It would damage my country and it would damage Mr. Beck even more than he is already damaged.  

JenniferMaxwell
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31 posted 03-14-2010 01:58 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Google is your friend, Denise. Pitchforks at the Bachman rally, and guns at tea parties, well, see for yourself.  
http://kstp.com/news/stories/S1197061.shtml?cat=206

Sorry about the bad link, the above should work.
Bob K
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32 posted 03-14-2010 02:06 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Denise,

           I didn't see any statement that said the Tea Party folks comitted violence.

     I saw a statement that said what some folks thought Glen Beck represented. Jenn said that was "the dark underbelly of the Tea Party."   If he does speak for the Tea Party — and I don't know that he does — his rhetoric about killing people is rhetoric about violence.  The video clip she posted is very clear about that.

     Is the still photograph she posted from a Tea Party Rally?  

     I have no idea.  If it is, then that is threatening rhetoric, and the threat that is being implied is that of violence.  You would have to wriggle a great deal to redefine it otherwise.

     The expressed outrage at the government is understandable.  I'm simply amazed that it took you so very long to actually notice what was going on, sort of like those domestic disputes where everybody is stabbing each other and then they turn on the cops when they try to straighten the mess out..

     Pretty soon the Tea Party will be bailing the Republicans out of jail and pretending like the last eight years never happened.  Blame the cops, so what if the Republicans like to go on wild binges, spend the payvheck gambling with their rich pals and wake up in November remembering nothing.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
JenniferMaxwell
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33 posted 03-14-2010 02:36 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I corrected the bad link in #31 to show a Tea Party with lots of guns. As for violence, don't have time right now to find the link but there was a knock down drag out in Florida. And yes, Bob, the still was one of many in the same vein at a Tea Bag rally.


JenniferMaxwell
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34 posted 03-14-2010 03:12 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I’m not the least bit worried about the average tea bagger who’s simply whining about paying a few more dollars in taxes at a local tea party gathering. But I am seriously concerned that hate mongers like Beck are stirring up very dangerous fringe groups with their anti-government, anti-Obama, pro-gun, pro-revolution rhetoric.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/oath-keepers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppbp2tSOU_w
Bob K
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35 posted 03-14-2010 03:56 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Jenny, didn't think you were wrong, simply didn't see the references and didn't have time to hunt them up myself.  Also my evil tongue couldn't help the last paragraph or so and I got carried away.
Denise
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36 posted 03-14-2010 04:06 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't know Grinch, I think we would probably already have had that monstrous Health Care 'Reform' Bill passed already except for the people expressing their opposition to it, whether it was the Tea Party participants or Town Hall participants.I think they gave some of the Democrats pause. Otherwise it would have been law by now, despite Obama and the Democratic leadership spinning about those Republican obstructionists. They don't need a single Reublican vote to push this through, just a majority of the Democrats, and so far they haven't been able to do it.

And the TEA in Tea Party stands for Taxed Enough Already, and has nothing to do with  teabagging, a smear given them by Rachel Maddow and her friends at MSNBC. But, of course, you know that already, I'm sure, so I would really respect you and others here more if you didn't call them teabaggers and refer to their gatherings as Tea Bag Rallies.

Imagine that, Jen, guns at a pro-gun rally, and openly displayed because that is the law in that locality. Unheard of!

I also didn't see any reference in that link that this was a Tea Party gathering or that Michelle Bachman was there, nor did I see pitchforks. Is there another link that you meant to include?

I don't see anything dangerous in Americans gathering to voice their support of the Second Amendment to the Constitution, nor with groups like the Oath Keepers pledging their support to defend the Constitution and the citizens in the event of a tyrannical assault by the government. Defend is the operative word. And it's a concept that is very Constitutional.

No, Glenn Beck doesn't speak for the Tea Party Movement, Bob. And it's certainly a stretch to call a statement of his about shooting terrorists, to being the "dark underbelly" of a grassroots phenomenon that sprang up to voice their opposition to big-government attempted power grabs, spending and taxation.
JenniferMaxwell
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37 posted 03-14-2010 04:17 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Watch closely, Denise, and you'll see another pitchfork. These are your fellow tea baggers, proud of them, are you? They represent your beliefs?
Actually, the name tea bagger came from a Tea Party group. Remember the pic of the Tea Party lady with tea bags hanging from her hat. They dropped the name after someone explained...well, you know.

JenniferMaxwell
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38 posted 03-14-2010 04:26 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Here's the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdyGhE7zH6U
JenniferMaxwell
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39 posted 03-14-2010 04:35 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

If you missed it, Denise, the pitchfork is at about 2:48.

And if your tea party group doesn't want to be referred to as teabaggers, then stop wearing silly, silly hats like this: http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/060R6Yja765pb/610x.jpg
JenniferMaxwell
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40 posted 03-14-2010 04:52 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Beck doesn't speak for the teabaggers? Seems he did at that $500 a plate teabagger fund raiser, didn't he?
Denise
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41 posted 03-14-2010 05:09 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Which TEA Party group coined that phrase Jen? I never heard of it before Rachel Maddow's comments and the subsequent giggle-fest with her fellow 'news professionals'.

Another pitchfork? Where was the other one?

They did a top ten list of the worst signs? That's it? Out of millions of signs that's what they could came up with? They hardly define the movement, which can't be said for the anti-war/anti-Bush protests a few years back where most of the signs were vile and violence-themed.

Thanks for correcting the link for the hat. I actually think it's cute! But does that justify calling her a teabagger?

Beck didn't speak at the Tea Party Convention that I know of, which I believe had a ticket price of $345. I believe he spoke at the CPAC Convention. I don't know what their tickets cost for their event.

JenniferMaxwell
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42 posted 03-14-2010 05:22 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

How many pitchforks do you want, Denise? Tell me and I'll try to make your dreams come true. There were two at the Bachman Rally and one in TYT video. Isn't that more than enough to prove my statement true?

In all honesty, I think you're out of the loop and really don't want to know about some of what's going on. Just my opinion of course, and no offense intended, but if you truly wanted to know, you'd be doing your own research instead of relying me to do it for you.

Now I"m going back to Brad's lovely post about contemporary poets in Philosophy. I've missed Brad a lot, haven't you?
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43 posted 03-14-2010 05:49 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I still haven't seen the Bachman Tea Party Link. The only thing I saw was the pro-gun rally. That's why I asked was there another link you meant to include.

If I'm out of the loop, Jen, I'm sure you'll bring any evidence that you can find to support you contentions. You just haven't proven your point yet. A couple of crazies here and there don't define a movement.
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44 posted 03-14-2010 07:20 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I don't know Grinch, I think we would probably already have had that monstrous Health Care 'Reform' Bill passed already except for the people expressing their opposition to it


Unfortunately you can’t blame that on those tea party folk Denise, not without re-writing history. The Democrats lost supporters in their own party as you rightly point out and they managed to do that by making concessions to Republicans during the debating process.

quote:
And the TEA in Tea Party stands for Taxed Enough Already


And they propose to reduce taxes how exactly?

quote:
I would really respect you and others here more if you didn't call them teabaggers


It wouldn’t be very respectful to ignore their roots Denise, Graham Makohoniuk who started the whole thing by suggesting that folk mail a teabag to congress and the senate would be crying all over his investment bankers portfolio if I did that.

Call me a traditionalist but they’ll always be teabaggers to me.


Bob K
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45 posted 03-14-2010 08:10 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



          You have your answer about which person in the Tea Bag Party is responsible for the unfortunate name.  Grinch offered it to you.  I'm sure the guy never would have made the suggestion about tea bags if he'd been in that particular loop, but there you go.  People make unfortunate connections for innocent reasons all the time.  You needn't get defensive about these things, in this case it's not even remotely your fault, and the linguistic connection remains.  It's still funny/odd, and we all need to live with it.

     In England, when somebody wants to say that they'll stop by to say hello, the idiom is, "I'll knock you up."  Innocent English folk will often look completely puzzled when Americans burst into laughter.  Are you going to say that the English need to change their long-standing idiom or that Americans need to change their dirty little minds?

     You could try.

     In the reverse, in American English, it's customary to talk about somebody on occasion "falling on their fanny."  The English would say "arse."  Were you to say "fanny," there is a percentage of the more uptight English folk who would take offense at an exceedingly indelicate usage descriptive of a close by anatomical female feature.  No problem for us colonials, not generally good for tea with the vicar, however, depending of course on the vicar.

     Tea bags are the sub-cultural equivalent.

     Your subcultural literacy may be far broader than I would otherwise credit, but somehow I would expect it not to be the case; nor would I expect this to be the case with many Tea Party members.  It's actually I think impoliteness on the left that puts you in this position, as if you would have reason to know this stuff, and that not knowing makes you foolish.  It's simple bad manners to poke fun at the lack of knowledge.

     The content of the lack of knowledge itself, however, while not your fault at all, is very much ironic, and is for that reason if for no other, very funny indeed.

     I don't know if you are at all fond of The Stephen Hunter novels.  Hunter is a very fine novelist and has written a series of novels about the adventure of a Vietnam era Sniper and his attempts to settle into the modern world.  Mr. Hunter is not fond of the American left, and his most recent book, I, Sniper — which I loved — plays a similar sort of trick on the ignorance of the American left about firearms.    

     If you're a Jane Fonda hater — as I am not; I admire her brio, talent and integrity — you'll be happy to see what is done to the character that represents her and the various other left leaning characters in the Novel.  I found the various events tolerable in that sense only by Mr. Hunter's extraordinary skills as a novelist.  He won a Pulitzer for his books of Movie reviews, but I believe his fiction is at least as skilled though not politically congenial for me personally.  Doesn't stop me from reading the stuff. though.
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46 posted 03-14-2010 08:10 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Hope I got the right link this time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_A7Hu0uKNw&feature=related
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47 posted 03-14-2010 08:23 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I believe the loud outcry from the American citizens had something to do with changing some minds too, Grinch. Some are listening even if the leadership isn't.

They can help with future tax reductions by continuing to voice their concerns and by voting out the bums in November if they don't change course.

Only someone with a mind like Rachel Maddow and her ilk could take a teabag and turn it into something sleazy in an attempt to mock people with whom they disagree. First they ignore them and when that doesn't work, they mock, and when that doesn't work, they attempt to portray them as dangerous extremists. Alinsky's Rules don't work so well when the opposition is on to the game plan.
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48 posted 03-14-2010 08:31 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The person responsible for the connotation is not the guy who originally organized sending teabags, Bob, it is the sleazy minds of those who seized upon the symbol to put their own depraved spin on it in an attempt to mock others.

The Red Russian Army Choir, Jen? Now I'm really confused.
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49 posted 03-14-2010 09:02 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"Thugs, bums, sleazy, depraved" - back to discussing the Cheneys again, are we?

Anyway, what the heck is wrong with Liz Cheney? First she puts her stamp of approval on torture and now she condemns members of her own profession for doing their job as she well knows they should.

Read an article on the Cheney family. Seemed to be saying Liz was trying to trump up a legacy for her father, other than being a Darth Vader figure in Bush's version of Star Wars.

No pitchforks in Red Square were there Denise? Only teabaggers still march with those.

Night all.
 
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