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Passions in Poetry

Are Abortions Just a Version of Pro Choice Death Panels?

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threadbear
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0 posted 02-21-2010 01:19 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

I was just thinking today:

Isn't 'Abortion Choice' a woman's own version of a 'Death Panel?'

Check this out: there are 2.4 million deaths a year in the U.S.
There are 1.6 million abortions a year.
Abortions now account for 66% of ALL deaths, if it was counted that way.

How did we get this far removed from Humanity? (in the name of 'choice'.)
In other words, choice has trumped humanity.

How can liberals, with a straight face, bemoan the US rate of Early Infant Mortality, and then SUPPORT abortive practices?
Aren't they one-and-the-same?

Likelihood of abortion:
An estimated 43% of all women (in the U.S.) will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old

So almost half the women in the US practice their own version of a death panel.  
The sad part of it is this:
Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).


Progressives think Republicans are heartless.
Well, there's alot of Conservatives out there that think Progressives are hypocritcal about supporting across the board health care, and SUPPORT mass abortive choices.  Just sayin'....

LINKS: http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/FASTATS/deaths.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortality_rate   http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Editors note: This topic was brought up, because I wondered:
what is the World and US abortion rate
when compared to morality rate?  
Are they close in 'total numbers'?
JenniferMaxwell
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1 posted 02-21-2010 02:17 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Maybe if you guys would shrink wrap it on a regular basis, the numbers would go down. And please, it’s not strictly a woman’s decision, but often one she makes with or because of her partner. And, have you noticed, the most vocal abortion opponents are often those most opposed to “entitlement” programs that would help a poor woman support a child from an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy, those who think teaching abstinence only is going to shut down the raging hormones of youth, those who condemn abortion but supported the bombing of Iraq that maimed and killed unknown thousands of pregnant women, infants and children.  I can think of no greater hypocrisy than that.

Until you walk in the shoes of a woman facing an unwanted pregnancy, or those of a woman who’s had an abortion, you don’t have a clue, so please stop pontificating and get thee to a drug store for protection instead.

threadbear
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2 posted 02-21-2010 02:20 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

sorry to disagree, but I DO have a clue; I have walked that particular step with a partner.

If that's the whole basis of your argument, you just lost it.

Your comparison of Iraqi deaths to abortion
is a classic example of liberal
non sequitur logic (look it up).
It's a way of deflecting the argument so someone has to defend another position.  My biggest criticism of Liberals is that they can't seem to address the topic: they must find some other so-called hypocrisy, and try to deflect the conversation there, simply because they can't or won't refute the facts.  
JenniferMaxwell
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3 posted 02-21-2010 02:46 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Not an argument, just a reaction to your inflammatory “So almost half the women in the US practice their own version of a death panel”.  If indeed you did walk those steps with a partner, then didn’t you serve on that panel, too?
threadbear
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4 posted 02-21-2010 03:01 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

yes, of course it was.
That's my point.  I served on my son's/daughter's own death panel.  
So did my partner, and neither one of us are ever the same.
  
  I don't know many people who would be comfortable telling people 'what their worst mistake of their life' is,
but having an abortion was mine.  
I was so wrong, and not a day goes by that I don't think about the what if's with heart-slapping regret.  
This is the greatest moment of shame, and of continuing sadness that I had/have.

It's because of this viewpoint that I feel compelled to make the above post.
JenniferMaxwell
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5 posted 02-21-2010 04:37 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

If the reason you felt compelled to post was because of your suffering, why turn such a sensitive subject in a quasi-political argument pitting liberal viewpoint against conservative, and demean women by calling the painful choice they’ve had to make a “women’s own version of a death panel”? Surely you can’t be that insensitive.

[This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (02-21-2010 05:42 PM).]

threadbear
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6 posted 02-21-2010 05:47 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

surely you jest, Jennifer.
I just listed the epitome of sincerity and yet you accuse me of insensitivity?

Sorry, but the issue IS quasi-political.  And YOU brought up the Death panel issue, yourself, Jennifer.  Why is my take any less sincere than your own inflammatory post?

I didn't post this topic to be controversial.  
If this concept is one of people having 'choices' over life and death, i ask again:

isn't abortion the same thing, only on an individual level?  and if it is, what a sad thing it is to have liberals trying to insert federally funded abortions in a LIFE-GIVING health bill?

Do you not see the hypocrisy in this?

It's high time the conservatives take the high road on this eugenic genocide, and get some limits on abortions passed.  At the very least, have a conservative viewpoint mandatory at each abortion clinic.  Why do I call it 'eugenic' genocide?  Because progressives say the world would be much better off without these unwanted babies.

Eugenics proposes to improve humanity's future by increasing the number of children produced by persons who are, by some definition, superior and by reducing the number produced by persons who are physically or mentally deficient. http://www.answers.com/topic/eugenics

The founder of eugenics, Francis Galton, identified it as ‘the study of agencies under social control that may improve or impair the racial qualities of future generations either physically or mentally’.
threadbear
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7 posted 02-21-2010 06:52 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Let's be fair here:
there is no such thing as a literal 'death panel', but there are everyday examples of life and death decisions made by 2nd party individuals:
euthanasia
cancer treatment options (ie, chemo)
abortions (on behalf of the unborn)
denials of insurance for pre-existing conditions

I was making the case that women or partners, make the same TYPE of decision in abortions, that liberals decry in the form of 'death panels' and that is:
someone else shouldn't make the decision for another person's life
JenniferMaxwell
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8 posted 02-21-2010 06:57 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

No Jeff, nice try but it’s not gonna  work.

Your opening post, as you well know, was what I was referring to as being insensitive. To make the statement “ women in the US practice their own version of a death panel” referring to women who’ve had an abortion, is, imo, beyond insensitive, it’s brutal.

My thread about death panels was about insurance companies denying coverage, not about individuals with feelings who’ve had to make difficult, painful choices like yourself and your partner.  

There is no funding for abortions in the HCR bill.

The last part of your post in # 6 is pure Palinesque fearing mongering.

I’m done so you have at it.

Bob K
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9 posted 02-22-2010 05:00 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



       I assume the last time somebody forced you to have an abortion, you sued for assault.  I certainly would have.  

     In the meantime, I’d suggest that you and Stephan or whoever else would like to discuss abortion feel free to do so in a thread that’s devoted to that subject.  See how the Death Panels notion flies there.

     There is a death panel of sorts that weighs profits against coverage.  I don’t like that; but I can’t say that you don’t or won’t have to make some choices in health care provision.  I only suggest that having that choice being made on the basis of profit is not a particularly, for me at least, ethic ground for it.  Once “decent provision” — and a good definition would need to be established for that particular will-o-the-wisp — is made for the care of everybody needing care, then perhaps we can talk about what to do with anything left over; or even how to arrange for something to be left over.
threadbear
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10 posted 02-22-2010 08:28 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Seems to me that
'Beginning of Life' choices should be even more important than
'End of Life' decisions.

The priorities here are inverted.
Bob K
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11 posted 02-22-2010 10:19 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I see that there has been an appropriate ventue opened.  I'm glad.

     Threadbear,  guy, thanks for talking about your own experience and for the difficulty of that experience and for the difficulty in coping with it.  Thank you for talking about the learning you had from it.  I would hope that everybody who is part of that particular experience  processes it as deeply and thoroughly as you have and as you do.  I wouldn't demand that you come out of the experience with a different conclusion, but, buddy, I wouldn't demand that you come out with the same one either.  I would only hope that you come out of it with a sense of having looked your actions and the actions of your partner as deeply in the face as you have.

     The conclusions that you come to are not conclusions that I would draw for you, nor are they conclusions that I would demand that you hold.  The process by which you came to them, though, are everything that I could have asked for in terms of honesty and depth.

     The tough part about this sort of thing is that there are people who seem to go through this sort of process and seem utterly untouched by it.  I find this a bit of a shock personally, that people could go through this sort of thing and not have some sort of serious reaction to it, but it is true, I've seen it myself.  If you've spent much time around people who've been through the process, then you've seen it too, I suspect.  I don't know what you make of it, but there it is.

     There are also people who come out of the process, after having been through the same sort of confrontantion you have and they are in a different place than you aned your partner have reached.  The experience has touched them in different places and in different ways.  My observation is that the effect is just as genuine, it's simply. . .different than your experience.  The experience itself is just as powerful, but it catches them along different personal dimensions, and it changes them differently.

     I don't ask that you agree with their conclusions and more than I would feel comfortable asking them to agree with yours.  I would and do feel comfortable asking that each of you respect that eachj of you has been and continues to be profoundly affected by and even shaken by the experience, and that the experience has had and continues to have a life-long transformative effect.  Even a close brush with the experience has that effect.

     I find it sad that folks mis this essential fact about each other, when there is more in common about coming in contact with the experience than there is polarizing in it.  Nobody comes away unchanged.

     It is the expectation that  each of us has a monopoly on rightness that does the damage here.

     My own feeling is that you cannot take the choice away from people.  I don't mean that you can't make it illegal; you certainly can.  But the choice is one that will always be there and must always be made.  Every child deserves the right to the understanding that it was decided that it should be born, not that it was a mistake or a piece of laziness that allowed a birth to happen.  That should be part of every child's birthright.  There should be no question about that.  Ever.

     No child should think that it came into the world because it was easier than getting rid of it.  I've met more than my share of those.
Bob K
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12 posted 02-22-2010 10:21 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I like the comment about birth rate as compared to the "morality rate."  I have yet to find a way of measuring the latter, however.
Sunshine
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13 posted 02-22-2010 11:04 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

quote: "Maybe if you guys would shrink wrap it on a regular basis, the numbers would go down. And please, it’s not strictly a woman’s decision, but often one she makes with or because of her partner. And, have you noticed, the most vocal abortion opponents are often those most opposed to “entitlement” programs that would help a poor woman support a child from an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy, those who think teaching abstinence only is going to shut down the raging hormones of youth, those who condemn abortion but supported the bombing of Iraq that maimed and killed unknown thousands of pregnant women, infants and children.  I can think of no greater hypocrisy than that.

Until you walk in the shoes of a woman facing an unwanted pregnancy, or those of a woman who’s had an abortion, you don’t have a clue, so please stop pontificating and get thee to a drug store for protection instead."

Jenn, on this one, I am definitely in favor of women being allowed a choice, no matter how painful it is to that woman, whether specfically, biologically, physiologically or mentally.

Only the most compassionate of men would ever experience this condition.

However, as an aside? I do not know the truest conditions of a war, either.

 
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