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Death Panels

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Balladeer
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25 posted 02-14-2010 04:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Don’t the taxes we pay help support that program that in turn helps you?

That's a fact, Jennifer. The taxes you pay also bought the guns and ammunition we used to protect you. If you had thought it out beforehand, you could have joined the service, dedicated four years or more of your life in service to your country, taking the chance you might wind up in jungles a couple of thousand miles away filled with these little fellas trying their best to make sure you die. Then your health care would be free, too. Don't bemoan the fact that taxes pay for military health benefits. That's the least it, and you, can do.
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26 posted 02-14-2010 05:33 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I see, so you’re more worthy than the “everyone” you mentioned. We’re all human beings, Balladeer. That’s the thing to remember.

Denise
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27 posted 02-14-2010 05:35 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I am in the HR Department, Jen. I can assure you that we know nothing of anyone's personal medical records unless they reveal it voluntarily.  
Balladeer
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28 posted 02-14-2010 06:33 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Are we worthy of receiving the benefits we do, Jenn? Yes, we are and what we do, or have done, is for the benefit of all Americans, even those with attitudes like yours. You may not wish to acknowledge  the service and the sacrifices of those that give you the right sit home and complain and that's ok. They will be out there, fighting for you anyway.

If you prefer to believe you deserve the same benefits they receive, go ahead. If you feel that they are not more "worthy" than anyone else, fine. They will continue putting their lives on the line for you, anyway.

It's easy for one to say, "I should get what he gets." My response is....pay the same price. Funny how so many people aren't willing to do that.
JenniferMaxwell
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29 posted 02-14-2010 10:04 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

You may think it’s a question of wanting to get what you get, Balladeer, but nothing could be further from the truth. I don’t want your free health care, or even Denise’s employer provided insurance. I want to pay my own way as I pay for all the other things I need. But corporate greed, corporate dirty tricks has made that impossible for me and millions of other Americans - those of us with limited earning ability, pre-existing conditions, or requiring expensive care. And nothing’s been done about it. I’m sorry if you can’t see how shameful that is and how shameful it is that so many of your fellow citizens are suffering.  

I’m more than willing to pay my share for an affordable program that covers my needs and even throw a little extra in the tax kitty to help someone who can’t. I truly can’t understand why anyone wouldn’t be willing to do that. Have we grown so selfish and so insensitive to the suffering of others that we demand those in need prove they’re worthy of something as basic as health care?  

Balladeer
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30 posted 02-14-2010 10:15 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

and that has what to do with military benefits?

You don't want free health care but you speak as an advocate of free health care. That's a little confusing.
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31 posted 02-14-2010 10:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Perhaps what you are saying is you want to pay for it but you want it to be fair and affordable. You will get no argument there. So let the government go after the insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies, the lawyers and the organizations that make insurance so costly. You don't need the government selling insurance for that. SO why don't they do it? What goes on in those back door meetings that Obama has with Big Pharma, the AMA and others? What kind of deal has he cut with them? We don't know. Have you heard the lawyers being nervous about tort reform? Me neither. Why not? Ask yourself what he really wants....
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32 posted 02-15-2010 02:23 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

When the Obama Administration proposed a plan do deal with the health care crisis, a crisis the Bush Administration ignored for eight long years, the Republicans cranked up their misleading machine, spreading misinformation hip boot deep such as - the plan included the creation of death panels, provided funding for abortion, rationed care, covered illegal immigrants, etc., - anything,  no matter how ridiculous or untrue they thought would enrage and inflame conservatives. Republicans with their do nothing attitude, their eagerness to spread misinformation rather than facts, have shown their unwillingness to deal with the issue in a responsible manner. Time for them to sit down and zip it.

Can’t help wonder if you had the same level of concern about closed door meetings, Balladeer,  when Cheney was holding closed door energy task force meetings with oil executives.

That horse is already dead, Balladeer. The government won’t be “selling insurance”.

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33 posted 02-15-2010 08:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The horse may be dead but the nag continues. Pelosi said just two days ago she she  is confident the government option will be in there in the final product.

Cheney and oil companies has something to do with health insurance? I had no idea.

When one sees the sweetheart deals Obama came up with to buy democratic votes (yep, had to buy his own party's votes), the mind boggles at the wheeling and dealing he might have made with the pharmaceuticals, AMA, AARP, and lawyers behind closed doors.

How great of a bill can it be for the American people when Obama has to buy support for it with  bribes?
Bob K
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34 posted 02-16-2010 04:00 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Sorry, Mike.  I've been quiet about this Obama-having-to-buy-Democratic-votes bushwa you've been spreading on the local toast for a while now.  You were silent about it after I mentioned it the last time for a while.  Now it seems that you've taken my silence for tacit agreement that it's okay to try to distort reality in public again without being called on it.

     Votes are, I assert, obtained in two ways — carrots or sticks — within the legislative context.  This is why assistant leaders are sometimes called "the whip."  That would include folks in both parties, Mike, Democratic and Republican, whose job it is to make sure that votes in the party should like up pretty much as they're supposed to.  Sometimes a quid pro quo is used to help things along, like the promise of help with political support during a re-election campaign by visits from a popular leader or by support from the national committee.  Sometimes a threat is used, like the threat of the national committee backing somebody else for your seat in the next election.  The Republicans did a fair amount of running more conservative candidates against Republicans who didn't fall into line on votes, in case you've forgotten.  That's part of the reason that the Republican party has scooted so far to the right from where it was during the forties and fifties.  


Their job is to keep party member is line, either with threats or quid pro quo trades, to make sure that the legislative process goes the way that the party leaders in each house get the cooperation needed to get the cooperation they need.

     I am also told that legislators require food, water and air for proper functioning as well, and that these functions are not unique to Democratic legislators as well.  I don't want to get too obvious here, but since you profess shock at the notion of the quid pro quo in legislative practice and imply that it is is specific to the practice of the Democratic party, I thought you might need to be reminded of these other essentials as well.

     Do you really think there aren't Republican quid pro quos as well, and during times when the party is out of power, Republican reprisals against folks who go against party voting policy?

     This is the way that politics seems to work.  

     This is one of the things that's entertaining about some of the Historical fiction by Robert Graves, I, Claudius, and Claudius, The God, in particular.  It's based very closely on some of the classic Roman histories of the Era, and they show that things have not changed all that much; though the infighting these days is perhaps a bit less fatal on the whole, the twists and turns and the lies and plots and backbiting and oddnesses of everything are remarkably modern.  You read the stuff and it really feels amazingly right now.

     I don't know how you are about fiction, or how anybody is who's reading these chats, but the Graves stuff isn't to be missed.  I haven't seem the BBC Tv versions of the things yet, but I hear they're pretty good, too.  I simply don't want to spoil the books in my head, though, if you know what I mean.
Balladeer
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35 posted 02-16-2010 08:19 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I'm afraid your eloquence is wasted on me, Bob, as are your insults once again. You just can't seem to make a response without them.

Whatever explanation you try to give, whatever comparisons you try to make....the facts remain the same and cannot be refuted. Obama had to buy votes with sweetheart deals to get his own party to accept his health care plan.

You want to say, "Oh, well, that's business as usual", go ahead. It doesn't make it right, especially with bills as huge as the health care bill. Besides, Obama is the one preaching "no more business as usual in Washington", isn't he?

Obama has no character for offering the bribes and the so-called congressmen have no character for accepting them, regardless of how you care to spin it.

Do you really think there aren't Republican quid pro quos as well, and during times when the party is out of power

The funny thing is that the Democrats are not our of power. They have the presidency, the House and the senate (at the time of the bribery) and STILL Obama had to buy their votes!

The fact that wrong is common doesn't make it right.
JenniferMaxwell
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36 posted 02-16-2010 09:26 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell


The six Republican ideas already in the health-care reform bill

“At this point, I don't think it's well understood how many of the GOP's central health-care policy ideas have already been included as compromises in the health-care bill. But one good way is to look at the GOP's "Solutions for America" homepage, which lays out its health-care plan in some detail. It has four planks. All of them -- yes, you read that right -- are in the Senate health-care bill.”

p://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/five_compronises_in_health_car.html

Balladeer
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37 posted 02-16-2010 01:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Then someone has to make up their minds. Either the Republicans have participated in the health care bill or they haven't. According to Obama, they haven't (except when he is in front of them telling them they have). If they have so many of their ideas incorporated into the bill then, obviously they have....even though there are Democrats screaming they haven't.

JenniferMaxwell
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38 posted 02-16-2010 02:45 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

OMG, that looks so much like Rush mocking Michael Fox.

And the Republicans have been whining that their proposals haven't been included.
(imagine a wailing baby graphic inserted here - larger than Balladeer's head spinner.)
Balladeer
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39 posted 02-16-2010 03:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Rush would be happy to know you think he's that slim

Actually, it's a graphic of Obama, saying "Where did my supporters go?". It was designed by Chris Matthews, who forgot for a minute that Obama was black.
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40 posted 02-16-2010 06:12 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
It was designed by Chris Matthews


More importantly the copyright is owned by Jupiterimages Mike and even if you’ve paid the $200 membership fee to use the image I think you may still be in breach of the license agreement, which doesn’t permit any use which allows the image to be downloaded by a third party.

Right click – save picture as

Whoops..


Balladeer
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41 posted 02-16-2010 07:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Interesting. Obviously you have proof of that or you wouldn't say it. I could not find it there although I did find it listed on nine other sites that have nothing to do with Jupiter. Jupiter does specify that, upon paying for membership, the watermark on all images will disappear for one's use. Since there is no watermark on this image, I doubt I could have copied it from  there. It's actually been years since I acquired it and have no idea where it came from.

Thanks for checking out where my images come from though. One can never be too careful.
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42 posted 02-16-2010 08:07 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

How sweet it is,Grinch is back.

Bob K
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43 posted 02-16-2010 08:44 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:

The fact that wrong is common doesn't make it right.



     No matter how hard I looked, Mike, I couldn't find any reference to an assertion that what was common governmental praxis had to pass a judgement of right or wrong, Mike.  It only has to be legal, near as I can tell, and I find that barrier unpleasantly low sometimes.  I've noticed that your ability to tolerate right and wrong seems to be very elastic, depending on the party involved.  I don't offer this as a criticism, because it isn't a criticism; each of us understands the nuances of what motivates the people we sympathize with more accutely than we do the people we do not sympathize with.  Peope and partisanship are built that way.  In this case, you have failed to see what is normal for the institution and is normal for your party is also normal for the other, however, and you have allowed yourself to say some things that you would take umbrage with had they been directed the other way.  I think you are aware that they could well have been.  If you are not aware, this is the time for you to become aware.

     That was the reason I suggested The two Robert Graves books.  They offer some perspective.  Not only to they offer some perspective outside the Democratic and Republican conflict of today, they go outside that of the United States, this century, indeed this Millenium, and they're also a fair amount of fun.  They were for me, anyway, when I was a kid.  And they've held up on re-reading often.  Your notion of politics as a sort of ideal environment is something to treasure, of course.  It should have other models alongside it, though, to expand upon it for those occasions when the ideal model doesn't seem to explain everything.  Don't you think?
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44 posted 02-16-2010 08:55 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No matter how hard I looked, Mike, I couldn't find any reference to an assertion that what was common governmental praxis had to pass a judgement of right or wrong, Mike.

You looked in the wrong places, Bob. Where you need to look is inside of yourself. We are all raised with a sense of right and wrong and we spend our lives passing judgement on people and events based on that sense. Why should our thoughts on government be any different? Why should we accept the "Well, that's the way politics are" axiom and close our eyes.

Yes, there are many fallacies to my way of thinking. I will acknowledge that. For one, it's too idealistic. For two, people have different definitions of right and wrong. It's probably not realistic but I prefer reaching for that rather than just accepting the bad along with the good. Call me a dreamer....even a fool, at times. I accept that.
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45 posted 02-17-2010 03:56 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Woody Allen's joke seems appropriate here.  He says that he was failed on a metaphysics exam because he was caught looking into the soul of the guy sitting next to him.  You might consider asking if your mind-reading had anything to do with reality next time.  That's usually what you say to me.
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46 posted 02-17-2010 04:05 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I don't think of you as a fool, though, or as a dreamer.  I simply see you as a guy who does what most people do for the positions their own side tends to take — see them in a favorable light.  I can't say that I'm much different, or that anybody else is, either.  It's simply that this is a bit of a stretch for a position.  Again, that's why I suggested Graves, who's writing about ancient Rome, very different that we are today and yet with so many creepy similarities.  It offers perspective you find it hard to get otherwise, unless you read some of the original Roman histories themselves —  The Twelve Caesars and the like, brilliant history, but not nearly as entertaining.
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47 posted 02-17-2010 08:01 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, I can read through history and determine that there has always been war, also, and thus probably will always be. That shouldn't stop us for striving for peace. Admittedly, a world without war is probably as realistic as a government without graft and corruption but it still shouldn't stop our efforts to attain it.
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48 posted 02-17-2010 08:36 AM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

By the way, the FIRST death panels were actually the Government panels that decided how people lived in order to pay social security 10 YEARS AFTER the average person dies.  (circa 1930's)
Grinch
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49 posted 02-17-2010 03:29 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Obviously you have proof of that or you wouldn't say it.


Obviously – If you need any additional information regarding the copyright and licensing restrictions Mike, or you’d like more details of how you can obtain a licence to use the image legally please contact Andrew Watzenboeck at bizdev@jupiterimages.com.

Though before you do I suggest you remove the image from your post – it’s my understanding that they feel the same way about copyright theft as Ron does.



Hope that helps.

quote:
How sweet it is,Grinch is back.


Thanks Jen, but I haven’t really been anywhere, I’m still reading, I’m even writing replies – I’m just not posting them.

.
 
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