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SO how's Health Care Going?

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Denise
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175 posted 03-29-2010 03:50 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Sorry, Bob, I meant to say Grinch.

Talk about Whopping Lies!! Do they get any bigger than Obama's?
http://www.john-goodman-blog.com/obamacare-by-the-numbers/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=HA#more-9545
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176 posted 03-29-2010 04:04 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Don’t you want to talk about the 17,000 IRS workers anymore Denise?

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on why so much effort was put into manufacturing the story and what your thoughts are regarding the people who did it. Would they pass the tea party test?

.
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177 posted 03-29-2010 04:35 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The story wasn't manufactured, Grinch. It's been headline news here all weekend, even in the lamestream media, with estimates of 17,000 to 19,000 new IRS Agents to be hired to enforce Obamacare. Part of their responsibilities will be to ascertain, every month, that everyone has, and is maintaining, a government mandated plan.
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178 posted 03-29-2010 05:24 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
It's been headline news here all weekend, even in the lamestream media, with estimates of 17,000 to 19,000 new IRS Agents to be hired to enforce Obamacare.


It has to be true because the lamestream media reported it? Are you wandering over to the dark side Denise? Those lamestream idiots that you keep telling us never get anything right are suddenly the oracle of truth and font of all knowledge?



quote:
The story wasn't manufactured


If you mean the story that some Republicans have claimed that 17,000 IRS auditors will be needed I agree – you’re right - that story is, unfortunately, true.

If however you mean that the claim that 17,000 IRS auditors will be needed because of the health care bill then I maintain that you’re wrong – they won’t.

.
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179 posted 03-29-2010 06:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

It’s not significant because it’s a total fabrication, there’s no need and, more importantly, no intention to hire 17,000 new staff,

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on why so much effort was put into manufacturing the story and what your thoughts are regarding the people who did it.

If you mean the story that some Republicans have claimed that 17,000 IRS auditors will be needed I agree – you’re right - that story is, unfortunately, true.


All of those comments from you, mr. grinch?

If however you mean that the claim that 17,000 IRS auditors will be needed because of the health care bill then I maintain that you’re wrong – they won’t.

Well, I suppose that's easier to say than apologizing to Denise. So let's see. Did the amount of taxpayers quadruple since last year, creating the need for an additional 17,000 auditors? No, I don't think so. Will millions of Americans now have to be monitored to insure they purchase health insurance? Yep. Will thousands of companies also need that monitoring? Yep again. Since this new requirement for everyone to get health insurance is part of the health care bill, wouldn't it be not that much of a stretch to think the hiring of the 17,000 has something to do with the monitoring which has something to do with the health care bill? Or do you htink that, if the health care bill had been defeated, they would still be hiring the 17,000?


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180 posted 03-29-2010 07:17 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
All of those comments from you, mr. grinch?


Yes - they aren’t hiring 17,000 IRS auditors because they don’t need 17,000 auditors.

quote:
Well, I suppose that's easier to say than apologizing to Denise.


Apologise? For what – telling the truth?

quote:
wouldn't it be not that much of a stretch to think the hiring of the 17,000 has something to do with the monitoring which has something to do with the health care bill? Or do you htink that, if the health care bill had been defeated, they would still be hiring the 17,000?.


Still be hiring?

Mike they aren’t hiring anyone – that’s my point - they don’t need to.

All returns are automatically scanned by a computerised system, at present the IRS only audit’s around 1.5% of all returns manually. None of that is going to change. The returns will be automatically scanned into the system as before and roughly the same number will be flagged for manual audit.

Why would they need 17,000 additional auditors?

.
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181 posted 03-29-2010 07:29 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=176997
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182 posted 03-29-2010 09:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Health premiums may rise 17% for young adults buying own insurance
By Carla K. Johnson, The Associated Press


CHICAGO — Under the health care overhaul, young adults who buy their own insurance will carry a heavier burden of the medical costs of older Americans— a shift expected to raise insurance premiums for young people when the plan takes full effect.

Beginning in 2014, most Americans will be required to buy insurance or pay a tax penalty. That's when premiums for young adults seeking coverage on the individual market would likely climb by 17% on average, or roughly $42 a month, according to an analysis of the plan conducted for The Associated Press.
The higher costs will pinch many people in their 20s and early 30s who are struggling to start or advance their careers with the highest unemployment rate in 26 years.
Consider 24-year-old Nils Higdon. The self-employed percussionist and part-time teacher in Chicago pays $140 each month for health insurance. But he's healthy and so far hasn't needed it.

The law relies on Higdon and other young adults to shoulder more of the financial load in new health insurance risk pools. So under the new system, Higdon could expect to pay $300 to $500 a year more. Depending on his income, he might also qualify for tax credits.

At issue is the insurance industry's practice of charging more for older customers, who are the costliest to insure. The new law restricts how much insurers can raise premium costs based on age alone. nsurers typically charge six or seven times as much to older customers as to younger ones in states with no restrictions. The new law limits the ratio to 3-to-1, meaning a 50-year-old could be charged only three times as much as a 20-year-old. The rest will be shouldered by young people in the form of higher premiums.

The analysis, conducted for The Associated Press, examined the effect of the law's limits on age-based pricing, not other ways the legislation might affect premiums, said Elizabeth McGlynn of Rand Health. Jim O'Connor, an actuary with the independent consulting firm Milliman Inc., came up with similar estimates of 10 to 30% increases for young males, averaging about 15%. "Young males will be hit the hardest," O'Connor says, because they have lower health care costs than young females and older people who go to doctors more often and use more medical services.

Young people who supported Barack Obama in 2008 may come to resent how health care reform will affect them, Gibbs and others say. Recent polls show support among young voters eroding since they helped elect Obama president.

Jim Schreiber, 24, was once an Obama supporter but now isn't so sure. The Chicagoan works in a law firm and has his own tea importing business. He pays $120 a month for health insurance, "probably pure profit for my insurance company," he says. Without a powerhouse lobbying group, like AARP for older adults, young adults' voices have been muted, he says. He's been discouraged by the health care debate. "It has made me disillusioned with the Democrats," he said.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2010-03-29-insurance-premiums_N.htm?csp=34&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+UsatodaycomWashington-TopStories+%28News+- +Washington+-+Top+Stories%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo
JenniferMaxwell
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183 posted 03-30-2010 07:21 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

State attorneys general have filed two federal lawsuits challenging the individual mandate to purchase health insurance, which President Barack Obama signed into law last week. Those lawsuits look like pure political posturing to me, given the well-established Congressional powers to regulate interstate commerce and taxation.

It turns out that precedent for a health insurance mandate is much older than the 1930s Supreme Court rulings on the Commerce Clause. Thanks to Paul J. O'Rourke for the history lesson:


In July, 1798, Congress passed, and President John Adams signed into law “An Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen,” authorizing the creation of a marine hospital service, and mandating privately employed sailors to purchase healthcare insurance.
This legislation also created America’s first payroll tax, as a ship’s owner was required to deduct 20 cents from each sailor’s monthly pay and forward those receipts to the service, which in turn provided injured sailors hospital care. Failure to pay or account properly was discouraged by requiring a law violating owner or ship's captain to pay a 100 dollar fine.

This historical fact demolishes claims of “unprecedented” and "The Constitution nowhere authorizes the United States to mandate, either directly or under threat of penalty...”
.......
The other option is to name Presidents John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison et al. in the lawsuits. However, it might be difficult to convince a judge, or the public, that those men didn't know the limits of the Constitution.

Because the attorneys general research is obviously lacking a comprehensive review of history and the Constitution, I’m providing a copy of the 5th Congress’ 1798 legislation.
http://open.salon.com/blog/paul_j_orourke/2010/03/24/news_pres_signs_h-care_insurance_mandate-212_years_ago
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184 posted 03-31-2010 06:03 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Republicans on the Wrong Side of History

Health care reform, financial regulation, the economic stimulus, energy policy....the GOP has continually stonewalled legislation to move our country forward. The only victory the GOP can claim after the successful passage of health care legislation is that they stuck together in solidarity to do nothing.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barbra-streisand/republicans-on-the-wrong_b_518925.html
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185 posted 03-31-2010 07:04 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

First death panels, now 17000 IRS "goons" beating down doors and dragging the uninsured off to jail. Republicans - not only the party of NO, but the party of lies so outrageous only a teabagger would believe them.
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186 posted 03-31-2010 08:38 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Once again the myth continues. No one, including Republicans, is against health care reform. They are against OBAMA'S health care reform. As our Mensa maestro grinch pointed out, anyone with any sense knows his plan has nothing to do with health care.
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187 posted 03-31-2010 09:59 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
As our Mensa maestro grinch pointed out, anyone with any sense knows his plan has nothing to do with health care.


I’m glad you’re paying attention Mike, health care reform is only necessary because the cost of Medicare and Medicaid is unsustainable and will result in a collapse of your economy if it isn’t addressed.

Making this a fiscal rather than social issue.

The increased coverage and reining in of the rip off merchants that infest private health insurance is simply a bonus.

Unfortunately Obama has failed to resolve the original issue, you’ve got the additional bonuses without attaining the main prize, Medicare and Medicaid will still destroy your economy because the Republicans managed to remove the public option – the fix for Medicare-  from the original proposals.

.
Bob K
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188 posted 03-31-2010 07:01 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Ah, the Public Option!  Be still my beating heart!
JenniferMaxwell
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189 posted 04-03-2010 02:47 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell


Not in Health Reform: "16,500 Armed Bureaucrats"

Again over the last few days, we've been reminded that opponents of reform will say and do anything, no matter how outrageous the charge, to cast doubt on health reform legislation that will reduce costs for American families and small businesses, expand coverage to millions of Americans and end the worst practices of insurance companies.

In the latest example from an ever-growing list of willful distortions, the American people are being warned that because of health care reform, the federal government will hire over 16,000 new IRS agents to enforce the new law. Indeed, in a March 22 interview with Fox Business News, Rep. Ron Paul declared that the bill would mean “16,500 armed bureaucrats.”  This is a thoroughly debunked charge that has absolutely no basis in reality. In fact, earlier this week the widely-respected FactCheck.org looked into this charge and concluded that it was a “wildly inaccurate…partisan assertion” that is “based on guesswork and false assumptions, and compounded by outright misrepresentation.” FactCheck concluded: the “claim of 16,500 new agents simply lacks any foundation in fact.”

What makes this whole attempt at fear mongering even more ridiculous is that this legislation represents the largest middle class tax cut for health care in our nation’s history. The major task of  IRS employees that will work on implementing this legislation will be to inform the American people of the different aspects of reform that they stand to benefit from and to make sure the historic health care tax relief is administered smoothly and efficiently. Indeed their first task is to inform millions of small business owners that they are eligible this year for tax credits that will cover up to 35 percent of their premium contributions for their employees and to start planning for delivering $400 billion in affordability tax credits the IRS will work with the health exchanges to deliver starting in 2014.

Getting the word out about these tax credits and delivering them smoothly and accurately will require relatively modest investments in technology and staff – even if that is less interesting to some than their fantasies about 16,000 gun-toting bureaucrats.

What’s clear from all of this is that there are people who refuse to have a debate on the merits of health care reform. Maybe that’s because these ardent defenders of the status quo are worried about the consequences of stopping at nothing to deny the American people quality and affordable health insurance

white house.gov health care
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190 posted 04-03-2010 05:35 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people.”
- Jack Handey

Denise
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191 posted 04-04-2010 04:24 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/01/04/pm-irs/

It would be beneficial if whitehouse.gov gave statistical facts to counter what they call fear mongering, instead of just saying that there is fear mongering. That tends to happen when there is no transparency.

The IRS will be involved, no doubt about that. What we need to know is the extent of their involvement, facts and figures that debunk the so-called guess work based on false assumptions. And why do they need to have Factcheck look into it and debunk it? Debunk it yourself with your facts and figures. If it's not 16,500 additional agents, what is the government's official estimate? They must have one, I would think. But maybe not. Maybe they haven't thought it through that far yet.
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192 posted 04-04-2010 05:25 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Who said the white House needed to have the stuff fact checked?  The fact Check people are independent and will debunk stuff distorted in either direction, Denise.  Did you look at the article itself?  I have references to it in two other Alley threads, so it shouldn't be too hard to find, and there are details offered there.

     I'm sure there will still be information you'll want to know about left over after that, but why not check that out for a start, then maybe we can jointly find out some extra informational sources to get some of the details nailed down as best we can.  There will always be stuff left to worry about that we'll all have to watch, to see how they come out in the wash.  But to get some of the data directly from factcheck will be a good start, I hope.

     Try checking that out, and let's see what's left to be nervous about.
JenniferMaxwell
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193 posted 04-04-2010 06:07 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

And I think it would be beneficial to stop spreading rumors that aren’t true.

First the Republicans come out with a baseless, unsubstantiated bit of nonsense - 17000 new IRS employees, then Ron Paul/Fox News take it a step further, crank up the fear factor = IRS “thugs” “goons” coming with guns to collect or drag off to jail those without insurance. There’s a good example of fear mongering - all of it coming from the Right.

When the time comes to prove to the IRS you have insurance, all you need do is attach the proof of insurance form you’ll receive from your insurance company to your tax form. Pretty simple, just like attaching your W-2.  Nothing about that requires hiring 17000 more IRS workers.

Denise
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194 posted 04-04-2010 07:12 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I was referencing the whithouse.gov statement that Jen supplied, Bob. Instead of their pointing to Factcheck's so-called debunking, why don't they just supply the actual facts and figures and level of IRS involvement? To me that would seem a bit more professional and informative, instead of their political posturing.

Are we to believe, Jen, that the IRS will have no involvment other than to make sure we attach our verification forms to our tax returns? End of story? No follow-up. No confiscation of money, whether through attaching refunds or taking it out of your bank account, to pay fines and penalties for non-compliance? Now that's what I would call spreading untruths.
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195 posted 04-04-2010 07:37 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
‘‘(A) WAIVER OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES.—In the case of
any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed
by this section, such taxpayer shall not be subject to any
criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.
‘‘(B) LIMITATIONS ON LIENS AND LEVIES.—The Secretary
shall not—
‘‘(i) file notice of lien with respect to any property
of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the
penalty imposed by this section, or
‘‘(ii) levy on any such property with respect to
such failure.’’.


So magnanimous of them to waive Criminal Penalties. I feel all warm and fuzzy! And they won't be placing liens on our property! Cool! That means I won't have to worry about them taking my house!
quote:
CBO Director Elmendorf, March 11: CBO has not completed an estimate of all of the discretionary costs that would be associated with H.R. 3590. … [S]uch costs would probably include an estimated $5 billion to $10 billion over 10 years for administrative costs of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS).

Note the words "probably" and "could." And the figure — based on preliminary analysis — could as easily be $5 billion as the $10 billion number the GOP analysts used.


That's an awful lot of money for virtually doing nothing but insuring that appropriate forms are attached to one's tax return.

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196 posted 04-04-2010 07:38 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"Spreading untruths" Fox allows and encourages it.
http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/4119541/ron-paul-bill-makes-health-care-system-worse

Starting at about 3:54 - Thugs with guns putting people in jail


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197 posted 04-04-2010 08:54 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
Authoritarian government helps special interests and betrays unaffiliated citizens. Taking over two car factories is pure Marxian Communism. Taking over doctors, drug suppliers and hospitals is central planning. Doing it in the name of progress or social justice is how left-wing progressives work. But calling Marxism “progressive” or “socialist” is delusional. It’s power lust. This must be reversed by getting government to return to the Constitution. Leave the citizens alone.

And “Hands off” people’s money.

A Rasmussen poll proves 75 percent are angry at government. Millions have taken to the streets to protest big, omnipresent, oppressive government. People want government to “back off”! Remove the chains from our wallets and lives. America deposed tyranny in Iraq. Let’s depose tyranny in America.

It’s time to free our people again.

http://www.thebulletin.us/articles/2010/04/02/commentary/op-eds/doc4bafda1591ca2173552248.txt
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198 posted 04-04-2010 08:56 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Pelosi was right....after it's passed we keep finding out what's in it.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/pelosi-passed-it-and-we-just-keep-finding-out-whats-in-it.html
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199 posted 04-04-2010 09:50 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So...it's a crime to not purchase health insurance but no one can be brought up on criminal charges if they don't, nor can their be liens on any of their property. Dos this mean Democrats will show up on one's lawn chanting "shame on you" as punishment?

To not enforce these laws and do nothing more than remove the staples from tax forms with proof of insurance attached, the FBI will need 5-10 billion dollars more.

Left-wingers, does this make any possible sense to even you? Are you required by your party to close your eyes and your brains to things like these?
 
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