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Passions in Poetry

Better watch out or the global warming will get yah!

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Essorant
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100 posted 02-11-2010 02:48 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I don't deny Global Warming, but I don't think it makes sense to demonize it completely or pretend people know exactly what is going on.  Some studies say that Global Warming may be delaying or even preventing the next ice age:

Next Ice Age Delayed by Global Warming, Study Says

Global Warming May Cancel Next Ice Age

Therefore, there may be some good things about Global Warming as well.  It is not as straightforward as simply saying it is "good" or "bad".
 
JenniferMaxwell
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101 posted 02-11-2010 05:31 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I very quickly skimmed the articles you mentioned Jeff, and didn't see that there was any consensus at all re cooling then as there is now with global warming. Seemed more like one of those cases where a few think they've seen a UFO or Bat Boy and the National Enquirer carries the story for an issue or two.

BTW, “we” aren’t doubting, as all the polls I’ve seen show.

Thanks Ess. It’s good to know that if global warming doesn’t getcha, a new ice age will.
threadbear
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102 posted 02-11-2010 09:32 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

you are absolutely right in that the 70's movement was not nearly as large as today's movement.  
They didn't have access to computer modeling like they do now, but still the 'fear' predictions came out in National Geographic, NPR, Time Magazine and Newsweek.  Back then, those magazines have alot more influencing power than they do today.  Every home i knew, had a subscription to Time magazine.
Juju
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103 posted 02-11-2010 09:34 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I am not starting a conspiracy theory. I am making an accusation.

Do we have the right to tell gorden brown(He probably doesn't) to quiet picking his nose -  no we don't. He is in another country and has every right to do what he wants under his country laws, saying he isn't doing it in ours.  

Of course this is completely different in the name of global warming. That right if gorden brown's possible dirty habit increased the carbon credits he would have to pay for it, because the US will not stand for it.

-Juju

[I normal would use a Jane doe, Joe Doe, but I used a figure head of a random country to point out the silliness of it.

Bob K
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104 posted 02-12-2010 03:34 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:


Whether or not we as humans are radically changing the environment - Global warming is used as an excuse to manipulate the public to accept taxation and US interference in the global economy that hasn't been seen since the early 1900s.





     Perhaps, perhaps not, Juju.

     Certainly we do not need to talk about global warming to get the public to accept proposals for taxation or for interference in the global economy.  We can get the public to accept further taxation, depending on your party preferences, on any number of different issues.  Some of them might include payment for the war on drugs, payment for control of immigration, building new prisons, new weapons systems, new benefits for veterans, making sure that we are safe from terror and that we have controlled Islamic extremism.

     These are some subjects that a certain portion of the society will; vote to increase their taxes to pay for without much problem.  There are also areas where folks on the left would happily pay to an increased tax burden.  Some of them may be identical, depending on the particular citizen.  

     To say that Global warming is different than these other subjects in its basic nature seems to me to be untrue.  It may seem different to you, it may not seem different to you, but I think that the motivation for getting people to be willing to vote for these issues is not in substance all that different.  Ecological and population issues — to the extent that you can distinguish between them — are other examples of the same sort of thing.

     The government has never appeared to need any excuse, near as I can tell, to feel justified in intervention in the global economy; not in the 19th century and not since.  We seem to believe that our faith in Capitalism gives us the right to support whatever ventures our capital seems to draw us into on pretty much a global level.  The confusion on our part between our political ideals as a democracy and our economic ideology as capitalsts has more or less ensured that we  have operated this way for quite a long period of time.  I may disagree with it, and in fact I often do, but our political agenda as a nation seems almost always tied up in this piece of confusion.  I don't think we need any extra piece of business to actually convince the country to act as though the wishes of the United States should be the policy for the world.  We have a tendancy to act that way already.

     The notion of global warming or some sort of global ecological and economic disaster may happen if we do not pay attention, to my mind, may actually force us to look at events in a different perspective:  Through the perspective of an entire ecology rather than a purely political or economic perspective.


quote:


The irony is that many of these plans by the government don't solve the problem, but makes it worse.




     Your comment here is one that I consider quite wise.  Quite often attempts to solve problems do end up purpetuating them, and that the solutions of problems may often be quite counter-intuitive.  The nature of the solution often has a lot to do with the way that we start in our formulation of the problem.  That again is probably a matter for another thread.  The more I understand about the field, however, the more I understand that common sense only play a small part of it.

rwood
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105 posted 02-12-2010 03:33 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Among several entities that have gathered together with a “Global Warming” objective:

I’d like to introduce the Kyoto Protocol

Do they have a “Global Warming,” marketing objective?

Yes, they certainly do. Emissions Trading

Is it legit?

Of course it is.

Do they have a target-market in their strategy?

Yes, they do.

National governments, some of whom may not have devolved responsibility for meeting Kyoto obligations to industry, and that have a net deficit of allowances, will buy credits for their own account, mainly from JI/CDM developers.

Has America signed on?

Yes, we did. But, no we haven’t. But, yes we have.

Should you as an American Citizen be concerned?
I don’t know? Does it matter how much plastic credit attributed to the downfall of the American economy? That wasn’t enough to scare us. Now we must be very afraid that if we don’t buy into “carbon credit” we won’t have a future, at all, et al.

How does the Kyoto Protocol determine its funding?

The Protocol also reaffirms the principle that developed countries have to pay billions of dollars, and supply technology to other countries for climate-related studies and projects. The principle was originally agreed in UNFCCC.

Are they worried about funding?

No they are not.

quote:
These deals are occasionally done directly through a national fund or agency, as in the case of the Dutch government's ERUPT programme, or via collective funds such as the World Bank’s Prototype Carbon Fund (PCF). The PCF, for example, represents a consortium of six governments and 17 major utility and energy companies on whose behalf it purchases credits.


How will this affect you?

Ask Al Gore.

He spearheaded the push for Kyoto in 1990 and has almost single-handedly delivered “944 U.S. cities in 50 states,” into agreeing with the Kyoto Protocol or a Kyoto type of mechanism. Gore did have some help from Greg Nickels. But Greg Nickels didn’t push the envelope to international levels. Both are heavily involved with various environmental entities that are ultimately owned and/or controlled by the World Bank. Nothing unusual there, I suppose.

Is Gore being heavily compensated for his illustrious involvement in “Global Warming?”

Who cares? But one could estimate that the pockets on his “Green Jeans,” have become more than deep, just by examining his raising. Gore Jr. is no stranger to politics or the prestige that comes with being in a political spotlight. Gore Jr. is publicly going against his own Father, Gore Sr. by taking the platform that he does upon the economy. He would NOT do this for penny’s worth of dissent. But for millions? He would and he has. Everything he touches turns Green.

Gore is the son of the late Albert Gore, Sr. (December 26, 1907 – December 5, 1998) Gore Sr. held office as a U.S. Representative (1939–1944, 1945–1953) and Senator (1953–1971) from Tennessee.

Gore Sr. and Gore Jr. have suffered some conflicts of interest.

quote:
After leaving Congress, Gore Sr. resumed the practice of law with Occidental Petroleum and became vice president and member of the board of directors, taught law at Vanderbilt University 1970–1972. He became chairman of Island Creek Coal Co., Lexington, Kentucky, in 1972
wiki

quote:
"`Ecology is now a household word, but many of those who use it do not seem aware of the fact that by definition ecology is tied to economics, that man's well-being is tied to his being; that although preservation of an unsullied crystal stream, a purer atmosphere, a virgin tract of forest, or an unblemished landscape are noble goals, they are not the noblest: the noblest is to provide man with the basic stuff of his existence—food and housing, and meaningful work. Before we can recreate we must create."(Gore Sr.) Source.

quote:
If we [do] not take action to solve this crisis, it could indeed threaten the future of human civilization. That sounds shrill. It sounds hard to accept. I believe it's deadly accurate. But again, we can solve it. (Al Gore, Jr.)


And:

quote:
There are many who still do not believe that global warming is a problem at all. And it's no wonder: because they are the targets of a massive and well-organized campaign of disinformation lavishly funded by polluters who are determined to prevent any action to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions that cause global warming out of a fear that their profits might be affected if they had to stop dumping so much pollution into the atmosphere.(Gore Jr.)


I don’t fully agree with either of them, and being at odds within the family nucleus is fairly common. To a global degree? It’s interesting and essential to understand that people DO disagree, at home. Within the cities. Within the states. Within the country. On an international level. And Now all over the Globe.

Just because I’m not buying the findings of the experts who are also not in complete agreement, doesn’t mean I’m not doing anything. I don’t like it when people say to me: So you’re one of those “Do nothings.”

Excuse me?

Invent me a cordless vac that will suck my way to work and I’ll make a clean getaway/investment!!

I didn’t really require any scientific studies or findings in order for me to go “Green,” before the color became an environmental term, many years ago. I’m not fanatical or perfect about being Green. I do what I can to recycle/reuse & went Green with all my cleaning supplies/liquids/methods of cleaning, as well.

But I will not declare all of the green fibers in my hard-earned dollars Green for the sake of purports and reports, each with a finding or formula or theory and more findings that do mostly nothing but prove we are still green about the whole Green thing.

Why? Because of history and Listerine.

Yep, that’s right. This isn’t the first time in recorded history that people believed we are so influential we can do things that will ultimately control our climate/and or the renewal of the earth. However, in the past it did require ritual sacrifice. Currently, we’ve out-populated that notion in most parts of the world, and hopefully we only entertain such in fiction with stories like:  “Children of the Corn.” (Stephen King.)

And I’m highly aware of how exciting it is to jump on the bandwagon with some things, and some movements were crucial, some were fun, some were embarrassing, some shameful. But hey? Elvis is still Secret Agent Hot in some parts of the world?

And Listerine? Quite interesting, really:

“[Listerine] wasn't a runaway success until the 1920s, when it was pitched as a solution to "chronic halitosis", the faux medical term that the Listerine advertising group created in 1921 to describe bad breath. By creating a "medical condition" for which consumers now felt they needed a cure, Listerine created the market for their mouthwash.” (wiki)

Quite possibly, “Global Warming” could be a “Global Crisis,” for which a global market is now using to target individuals for their “hogwash.”

The statements and entities above like Kyoto are real. They are not figments of my imagination. I’m not afraid of the term “Green.” And “Global Warming,” “Climate Change,” whatever they’ve got in their marketing arsenal is going to have to prove to be more than just a vampirical formula for profit. Global Warming=human generated green house gas emissions=carbon credit. *Equals Atmospheric Pressure at Grandest Proportions Ever! The pressure I’m sensing, however, is from individuals upon other individuals, not from alleged anthropomorphic sources/culprits upon the environment.

Maybe a global market has figured out a way to finance everything under the sun???
Even that which the sun may be culprit?

Scientists Baffled by the Sun

That’s only one tiny article that mentions the sun’s play in the game. There are numerous articles.

Signatories Against the IPCC Findings

That’s only one list of scientists. There are numerous scientists of all kinds, bickering and theorizing and researching and opposing and supporting.

Meanwhile?

People like Juju? They have a point!

[This message has been edited by rwood (02-13-2010 08:39 AM).]

rwood
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106 posted 02-12-2010 05:02 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

People (scientists) and the likes/dislikes are really up in arms about Global Warming!

Sir David King: IPCC Runs Against The Spirit of Science

The Sir has a point, and even has a beef with American lobbyists. Oh NO! The Dratted American Lobbyists!! RUN!

But keep scrolling & read the comments he received on his article. He's addressed as: "dear pipkin's" by the first responder, who also has some great points, and then the Sir is lambasted by a colleague of sorts, or a gentleman of close study who says:

quote:
When I practiced in a scientific capacity, I was a member of the same learned society as you, Professor Sir David King FRSC. I was a mere graduate then a member, but I do believe I have a much better grasp of climate science specifically and the principles of science in general than yourself. Yet you were at one time head of the University of Cambridge Chemistry Department and are still an acting professor. If I were a religious person, I would now be saying “God help us all.”



Wow, his comment is worth reading just for his exquisite expression and usage of the English language. I'm in love with Colin Porter, whoever he is, for the moment. And I'm not ashamed to say that I'll have to read his post a few times before I can develop my thoughts, but this was interesting:

quote:
[The UK] started off the industrial revolution and for many years were the major “polluter”, and should therefore pay the greater part of any reparations.


WHAT!

Uh oh. So, like, what about those who fled Europe so long ago?

Is this yall's way of getting us back?
Balladeer
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107 posted 02-12-2010 05:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thank God we had people with enough sense to keep us out of Kyoto.
rwood
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108 posted 02-12-2010 06:02 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Nope. We're not out, yet. We're signed on for symbolic purposes and it's a commitment that ends soon, and it's non-binding until ratified. Instead, we're developing our own model based upon the Kyoto standards, called the Cap & Trade Bill."

quote:
On November 17, 2008 President-elect Barack Obama clarified, in a talk recorded for YouTube, that the US will enter a cap-and-trade system to limit global warming.

The 2010 United States federal budget proposes to support clean energy development with a 10-year investment of US $15 billion per year, generated from the sale of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions credits. Under the proposed cap-and-trade program, all GHG emissions credits would be auctioned off, generating an estimated $78.7 billion in additional revenue in FY 2012, steadily increasing to $83 billion by FY 2019.



Trap & trade...seems more appropriate.
Balladeer
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109 posted 02-12-2010 07:14 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Crap and trade fits just as well
Juju
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110 posted 02-12-2010 07:58 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Or Colonialism

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Bob K
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111 posted 02-12-2010 09:16 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Who's the colonial power here?

     Given the World Bank's presence, I get very nervous.
threadbear
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112 posted 02-14-2010 09:54 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear


Climategate U-turn as scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming since 1995


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250872/Climategate-U-turn-Astonishment-scientist-centre-global-warming-email-row-admits-data-organised.html

somebody got some 'splainin to do.
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113 posted 02-14-2010 09:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, well, well....the only warming is faces getting red, it seems.
JenniferMaxwell
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114 posted 02-14-2010 10:03 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Well there you go! Fill up the tank on the SUV and head on down to the Hummer dealership for that second guzzler you've been dreaming about.

threadbear
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115 posted 02-14-2010 10:24 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

followed by  
ooops
U.N. climate panel admits Dutch sea level flaw http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61C1V420100213

and
EPA Global Warming Office Can't Open- Due to Snow http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minori ty.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=b3e826ad-802a-23ad-45b8-8fa00c661d62

But Wait!  Global Warming is a big deal!  We could ALL DIE!  Haven't you seen the Climate Change videos?
PEW: Global warming ranks dead last as concern for Americans...
http://people-press.org/report/584/policy-priorities-2010.
PEW: Global warming ranks dead last as concern for Americans... ^

well, maybe we WON'T die,
but we will surely go broke
paying to preserve Little Green Gremlins.
Ron
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116 posted 02-14-2010 10:33 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Mr Harrabin told Radio 4’s Today programme that, despite the controversies, there still appeared to be no fundamental flaws in the majority scientific view that climate change was largely man-made.

That doesn't sound like much of a U-turn to me?
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117 posted 02-14-2010 10:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

    * Data for vital 'hockey stick graph' has gone missing
    * There has been no global warming since 1995
    * Warming periods have happened before - but NOT due to man-made changes


Professor Jones also conceded the possibility that the world was warmer in medieval times than now – suggesting global warming may not be a man-made phenomenon.

And he said that for the past 15 years there has been no ‘statistically significant’ warming.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250872/Climategate-U-turn-Astonishment-scientist-centre-global-warming-email-row-admits-data-organised.html#ixzz0fZXgvwf7


That's not a u-turn?
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118 posted 02-14-2010 10:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Harribin is the BBC’s environmental analyst only, Ron.

That's like saying there is no steroid use in the major leagues because Curt Gowdy says so.
threadbear
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119 posted 02-14-2010 10:47 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Don't know if y'all saw this, but i just about fell out of my sacred Lay-z-Boy when I saw this at Christmas:
"Build-A-Bear Scares Children with Global Warming at Christmastime"
http://biggovernment.com/mflynn/2009/12/22/build-a-climate-scare-why-you-     should-boycott-build-a-bear/

I don't know how many out of 100 i agree with, but there are some valid points in this subset:
CLIMATE CHANGE IS NATURAL: 100 REASONS WHY http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/146138

and my last post on this subject for the evening:
a great summation of Climategate as of Nov 22, 2009
Climategate: the final nail in the coffin of 'Anthropogenic Global Warming'?
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesde     lingpole/100017393/climategate-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-anthropogenic-global-warming/  
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120 posted 02-14-2010 11:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The company also has a website called Build-A-Bearville.com where children can play an interactive video game that, on it’s surface, is unlikely to raise suspicion or sound alarms.

But when your unsuspecting tot logs on and hops a virtual train to the North Pole…you should know that he or she will be informed — by Santa Claus — that Christmas may be canceled this year due to Global Warming.


That's really sick. Be happy, Algore...
Ron
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121 posted 02-15-2010 01:00 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
* Data for vital 'hockey stick graph' has gone missing

A few years back, Mike, I lost my birth certificate. Are you suggesting my existence should have been called into question because the hardcopy was lost?

quote:
* There has been no global warming since 1995

And the temperature in Michigan has dropped several degrees in the last 20 minutes. The trend, however, is for our temps to rise over the next few months as we approach first Spring and then Summer. In terms of our planet's lifetime the difference between 20 years and 20 minutes is appallingly insignificant.

quote:
* Warming periods have happened before - but NOT due to man-made changes

True, but there was always a discernible reason for the warming period. That's what science does, after all; it looks for the reasons. The reasons this time don't appear to be the same reasons as in the past.

I'm not particularly invested in climate change theories. Doesn't much matter to me either way, since I think one way or another our continued dependence on fossil fuels is going to destroy us. I'm just saying, there wasn't anything in that article I read that sounded like anyone had changed their minds.
Essorant
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122 posted 02-15-2010 01:39 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What makes people treat news articles as if they are some lofty authority, even on the science behind something such as global warming?   Can someone clarify?  Why for example, don't we see so many statements from scientific resources, a scientific website or science-book on the subject, but instead see people treating a bunch of news articles as if they are a superior authority on the subject?

  
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123 posted 02-15-2010 08:40 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

In terms of our planet's lifetime the difference between 20 years and 20 minutes is appallingly insignificant.

I couldn't agree more but, according to Obama, if these extraordinary controls are not enacted immediately the earth could be damaged irrevocably within the next 30 years or so...apparently he doesn't share our view of the appalling insignificanse of that amount of time.
Ron
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124 posted 02-15-2010 02:19 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Damaged irrevocably?

A giant asteroid might do that to the Earth, I suppose. The sun going nova definitely will (we expect that to happen in roughly five billion years). Anything short of that kind of cataclysmic event, though? I don't think so. In my opinion, the Earth can heal itself from just about anything short of physical destruction.

Life, however, and human life in particular, isn't quite so tough. What is appallingly insignificant in terms of our planet's lifetime is clearly quite a different story in terms of a human lifetime. I certainly wouldn't accept any prediction of planetary failure in a mere three decades. The viability of human life, however? Maybe. I don't know.

Personally, Mike, I don't think it matters. If we continue down our current path, perhaps waiting for science to come up with easy answers to hard problems, civilization will self-destruct long before the climate has a chance to kill us. When the oil runs out, as we all know it must, people are going to start getting mean. Really mean.


 
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