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Passions in Poetry

Better watch out or the global warming will get yah!

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Balladeer
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50 posted 12-20-2009 11:04 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What I am talking about, Ess, is the agreement they reached, which puts no requirements on the major players on the global warming stage.

If you don't agree with that...good. You shouldn't...nor should anyone else.

Tim, don't look now but Hugo IS running the show.
Local Rebel
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51 posted 12-20-2009 11:08 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

I don't necessarily agree with keeping poeple poor for the sake to make us rich, since it breeds instability. This is generally considered neo-liberal (Clinton Policy)  



Neoliberalism is an economic philosophy derived from classical economic liberalism Juju -- that is actually, in American politics, called -- conservatism.  If you want to make the case that the goal of conservatism is to make 'us' (as in the already rich and powerful) rich and to breed instability (here and abroad) then I'm in agreement.  

In the United States this began with Ronald Reagan.  Not that Clinton did anything much to reverse Reaganomics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberal#United_States

If you don't necessarily agree with it -- then -- you are apparently confused about your own ideology.


Balladeer
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52 posted 12-20-2009 11:34 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Asian giants China and Indonesia have hailed the Copenhagen UN climate summit outcome, despite its cool reception from aid agencies and campaigners.

Beijing's foreign minister said it was a new beginning, and Indonesia's leader said he was pleased with the result.


What a shock. Two of the biggest polluters, who are classified as developing nations and therefore in line to receive a good portion of the billions allocated to developing countries, think Copenhagen is a success. Why doesn't that surprise me?
Essorant
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53 posted 12-21-2009 01:22 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Good thing they aren't firefighters.  They would try to pay people not to start fires, instead of actually putting out the fires.
Bob K
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54 posted 12-21-2009 02:00 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:

No problem, Bob. Regard me as abusive or anything you like. Take my comments to others and attack me on them. That has been your modus operandi for some time now so have fun with it. My only error was giving your comments enough importance to mention them. I'll try not to let that happen again. By all means, live up to your obligations...



    I notice, however, that when I requested that you actually cite where I was demeaning you in the posting we were talking about, you skipped attempting an answer and only reasserted the accusation.  Perhaps it sounds more convincing to you this time around; lacking an example to back it up, it sounds pretty unsupported and hollow on this end of things.

     Thanks for your generosity in allowing me to see you as abusive.  I do try to make a distinction between you and your comments, however.  My modus operendi has always been to stick up for somebody I see as being bullied; it is not recent, it has been pretty much a life-long habit.  If you don't wish to be called on what you say to other people or to me, then some extra attention to detail and fact might go a long way.

     For example, you only sometimes come across as abusive, and I think it's a mistake for you to believe that I think you are always.  I thought you were in this case, and I said so.  You conflate the part with the whole in this situation.  In the same way that I am only a jerk part of the time and am fairly decent a lot of the time.  I am both a candy mint and a breath mint.  I have made it clear to you that I like you very much at times too.  That doesn't mean that I don't have other thoughts and feelings and that I don't share them as well.  They are all quite real.

     In the same way, I am very fond of President Obama and think that he has some flaws.  I am not silent about the flaws.  I try to speak up about what I like there too.
I do not want us to be in Afghanistan right now.  I am not entirely sure that my position on that is firm, but I really don't like  what we're doing and how we're going about it there, and I'd like to rethink that, or at least have some sort of a national discussion on it.  I'm critical of President Obama on that right now.  I have other problems with him as well, yet at this point I like him far more than not.  Two sets of feelings about one person.

     Thanks for your permission to live up to my obligations.  It's difficult enough, with permission or without, and my problem is more often fear of doing so.  I understand you're being a touch sarcastic here.  I'm sorry you feel that way.  

Juju
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55 posted 12-21-2009 11:11 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Look up Neo Liberalism on wiki

"Broadly speaking, neoliberalism seeks to transfer part of the control of the economy from public to the private sector,  under the belief  citation needed] that it will produce a more efficient government and improve the economic indicators of the nation. The definitive statement of the concrete policies advocated by neoliberalism is often taken to be John Williamson's "Washington Consensus," a list of policy proposals that appeared to have gained consensus approval among the Washington-based international economic organizations (like the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-liberalism

So in its Ideal state, it isn't bad.  Your right that many conservatives have this philosophy, how ever neoliberalism in the clinton era was used as a way to manipulate other countries using the WB and the IMF. This front known as "Globalization" Would become the economical weapon that would cripple the third world.  Neo Liberalism is a philosophy, like socialism, communist, feudalism, and many more.  


Look up Conservative on wiki

"Conservatism in the United States includes a variety of political ideologies including fiscal conservatism, supply-side economics, social conservatism, libertarian conservatism, bioconservatism, traditionalist conservatism, and religious conservatism,[41] as well as support for a strong military. Modern American conservatism was largely born out of alliance between classical liberals and social conservatives in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.[42]

Important American conservatives include William F. Buckley and Barry Goldwater.

US president Ronald Reagan, who was a self-declared conservative, is widely seen as a symbol of American conservatism.[43] In an interview, he said "I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism."[44] Organizations in the US committed to promoting conservative ideology include the American Conservative Union, Eagle Forum, Heritage Foundation and the Hoover Institution. US-based media outlets that are conservative include Human Events, National Review, The American Conservative, Policy Review, and The Weekly Standard.

In the US, social conservatives emphasize traditional views of social units such as the family, church, or locale. Social conservatism may entail defining marriage as relationships between one man and one woman (thereby prohibiting same-sex marriage and polygamy) and laws placing restrictions on the practice of abortion. While many religious conservatives believe that government should have a role in defending moral values, libertarian conservatives such as Barry Goldwater advocated a hands-off government where social values were concerned."

But in general it is usually defined as some people have bad logic(serial killers their psych paths liers people in chronic debt), therefore the government has the right to enforce laws to prevent chaos.  This is why a true conservative wont always support reducing regulation. Therefore regulation would be present to protect people from hurting themselves.  


Many, many, many, conservatives believe in liberal economics, but There are some that believe in conservative economics.  Therefore someone who believes in political conservatism can also be an economic liberal.

Juju  

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Bob K
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56 posted 12-22-2009 02:50 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Juju,

quote:


But in general it is usually defined as some people have bad logic(serial killers their psych paths liers people in chronic debt), therefore the government has the right to enforce laws to prevent chaos.



     A definition has to distinguish one thing from all other things in a clear and unmistakable way.  I think you need to try again here.  This definition is trying to say something about the existence of government; I think, but I can't be sure.  If it were a suitable definition, we'd pretty much know that it applied to a certain kind of political philosophy, conservatism, and to nothing else.

     Your presentation has the rough form of a syllogism.  Two statements, one building on the other, that lead to a third statement that is the logical outcome of the previous two.  It is ill-formed as a syllogism, however, because it has an undistributed middle, and the final proposition does not follow.  That is supposing that it is intended as a logical statement; it may not be.

quote:


Many, many, many, conservatives believe in liberal economics, but There are some that believe in conservative economics.  Therefore someone who believes in political conservatism can also be an economic liberal.



     There may be a very large number of conservatives who believe in Liberal economics.  If there are, I don't know of any of their publications, and would be interested in knowing of some of them.  I do know of folks such as the late senator Goldwater who were fiscal conservatives and believed that, as many of the founding father believed, that government and Religion should be kept separate, and that many matters of personal morals did not belong in the public sphere.  Sexual orientation, for example, Goldwater felt, was your own business.

     There are, as a result, some folks who are fiscal conservatives and social libertarians.  Sometimes even social Liberals, I suppose, such as the late Governor Rockefeller of New York.  People who are economic Liberals, however, are generally simply called Liberals, since the spending that the Keynesian economics may mandate may go toward what conservatives disdainfully call "entitlements."   Conservatives tend to be programmatically against such things, especially when these programs are directed toward helping out the impoverished.

     They have, however, often supported equivalent programs for folks in the upper income brackets, such as Oil Depletion Allowances and the tax cuts for the very wealthy that drained large amounts of money from public coffers during the last eight years.

     Our opinions apparently part ways on some of these details.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven  
Juju
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57 posted 12-22-2009 10:24 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

B-

It is a pretty common definition of conservitism: The government exists as a a function because some poeple are better at making decisions than others. The philosophy sprouted after the french revolution.  That the mass of poeple are incapable of ruling themselves, there fore goverment is needed to maintain order.

An example of a group of poeple with conservative political views, but libral economic views would be any one who calls them selves a Reagonite.

I my self am conservative with economics. I more closely can be discribed as a libertarian conservative with economics, but I have a belief that in general the government causes more problems than it solves.

I do understand your remark that "conservatives" don't caqre about the poor.  Perhaps the law makers in your area don't.  I don't know about that, but I think that even if the republicans would try to apeal to the poor, it would be for naught.  There is such a thick deep hatred that is fed by the Social-Librals in the east coast to the poeple that they won't even try.  

In fact I bet if a canadate were to come and talk to many of them, they would be spit at or ignored.

But maybe I am wrong.

I do, however think it is sad that many many conservative republican and libertarian republicans and moderate republicans who do care about the poor and work hard to make thier lives beeter have failed at communicating to them.  

There is something wrong when the guy in power wont talk to his consituaints.  I think If there was some communication maybe things would change.  

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Bob K
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58 posted 12-22-2009 11:16 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



The notion that some people were better suited to making decisions than others didn't start with the French Revolution.  It started with chiefs and elders and continued with kings and continues now with dictators.  Your definition doesn't distinguish authoritarian governments from elected Governments, and governments that are imposed and maintained by force from outside and above from Governments that emerge from the people with the support and consent of the people who bring them to and maintain them in power.  Nor do they distinguish elected from unelected governments.

     If you're going to talk define Conservatives, you need to distinguish what makes them different from any other  political point of view.  That's what definitions do.  It's like drawing and shading done correctly; when you're finished the thing you're defining is clearly distinguished from everything else around it.

     What you've done is lumped a bunch of things people feel about being conservative into a single basket.  You haven't thought whether other political points of view might think the same sorts of things about themselves, too.

     The notion of the mass of people being incapable of ruling themselves has very little with either Conservative or Liberal in American politics at this point in time.  It's more to do with Royalist politics.  Politics in a Democracy seem to be based on the notion that people can in fact rule themselves, either directly or through representatives.  It's one of the values that Liberals and Conservatives seem to share in a Democratic society.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Ron
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59 posted 12-22-2009 01:01 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
A definition has to distinguish one thing from all other things in a clear and unmistakable way.

Really? Maybe you haven't looked at the definition of poetry, Bob, not just in the dictionary, of course, but as attempted by some of the greatest writers of history? I have yet to find any definition that doesn't create numerous (and poetically remarkable) exceptions.

There are many, many words in the English language that fail to distinguish one thing from all others in a clear and unmistakable way, Bob. That's precisely why people still continue to misunderstand one another.

You certainly don't have to agree with Juju's definitions, but I don't think you can legitimately dismiss them based solely on your own unrealistic, uh, definition of definitions.
Juju
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60 posted 12-22-2009 01:10 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I don't understand what you mean I thought that I was pretty clear, but oh well.  

I miss said the conservative view point: a "mass" of poeple cant govern themselves. I guess It is Hard for me to explain because I am not one.  My friend who is a conservative explains that the government is needed to preserve order, which includes building rodes, a strong police force, fire, and other government services.  She said that there are three different attitudes about treating the poor:

"Compasionate Conservatism" - Poeple don't need welfair and state services. these should be used in emergency cases only. When poeple get dependant on the government huge problems are created within a society. The government is better off using the money to pay private pro bono groups that understand the problems in the area than having a general across the board rules or a complicated mess of red tape.

{the other two I will complete later I ran out of Internet time} )O_o

Anyways Some one is not a bad person becuse they are a conservative or a libral or a liertarian  or a socailist.  So I guess we should agree to disagree.  But I am not a conservative I had to ask my friend these questions.

On a side note: Real conservatism doesn't exist in most republicans to be honest.  The ones in the East and west coast are down right socialist. Many politicians are persueded by who gives money and leads to corruption.

Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Balladeer
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61 posted 01-04-2010 11:31 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8439594.stm
Bob K
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62 posted 01-05-2010 11:43 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Now I see why you insisted on including "accountant" on your list of must have professions, Mike:   Pediatricians, surgeons, drivers, CEOs, other businesspeople, and so on.  As you appear to have have pointed out here, you seem to have difficulty with the notion of  averages as applies to statistics.  Now I understand.
Juju
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63 posted 01-06-2010 05:27 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Why is it we call it global warming? why not pollution. Why cant we say "we pollute to much" and not "we have to be green." so silly.

Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Grinch
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64 posted 01-06-2010 07:11 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Why is it we call it global warming? why not pollution.


For the same reason we don’t call obesity “eating too much” – one is the effect while the other is a possible cause.

Average global temperatures are rising, so calling the observed effect global warming sounds pretty darn reasonable to me. Another good reason is that if average global temperatures start falling, using your naming convention, we’d be forced to call it something like “not pollution” instead of global cooling.

Which would be silly.
.
Juju
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65 posted 01-07-2010 09:41 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

You can eat too much and not be obese

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Grinch
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66 posted 01-07-2010 01:08 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
You can eat too much and not be obese


Which was my point exactly.

.
Juju
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67 posted 01-07-2010 02:25 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

And you can not eat that much and be obese....

Sometimes events happen and there may be other causes. We cant control normal or abnormal weather changes. But we can reduce polution. There are much worse out comes to polution than a out come of global warming.  

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

JamesMichael
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68 posted 01-07-2010 06:19 PM       View Profile for JamesMichael   Email JamesMichael   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JamesMichael

Interesting comments...I propose that the Global Warming or Climate Change or Carbon Tax agenda, whatever they want to call it, all fall into the category of a SCHEME TO RAISE MORE TAXES...and to GAIN MORE CONTROL inorder to FINANCE their new world order...GLOBILIZATION...James    
Balladeer
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69 posted 01-07-2010 07:18 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

An excellent proposal, James.
Bob K
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70 posted 01-07-2010 08:06 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     To the extent I understand "Globalization," I don't like it.  Perhaps some surge of wonderful new information will come in, sweep me off my feet, and convince me otherwise.  I see no such information on the horizon.  I find, like Juju, like to love about pollution.  If you "eat too much" and don't gain weight, I'd be interested in how you've come to decide that you eat too much?  Perhaps there are some objective criteria you might point to that we might agree upon here.  I, for one, weigh too much; and that seems objective enough for me.

     It is clear that there are terrible outcomes for people that appear to come from pollution.  If we cut back or eliminate as many of the causes of pollution as we can, we we do a great deal to address many of the things that we believe to be roots of global warming.  I think you're correct about that, Juju.  So I think that you have a great point there.

     I think that we also need to address the issue from the population growth side as well.  We've got too many people and too small a world to support them.  Our resources are limited.   We haven't actually planned how we intend to approach this issue as a planet, though many of us have plans for how we would like other people to address the problem.  Folks often hear these as fighting words.  Not a great idea in a tinderbox world.

     James Michael and Balladeer may or may not be correct about raising taxes; I don't know.  I have a fairly good idea, however, that once they've suggested anything about raising taxes, both of them have stopped thinking of any other way of dealing with the problem beyond suggesting it isn't a problem.

     Juju can recognize there's a problem here, though I don't know what her thoughts are about a solution.  I'm not sure of what sort of solution is needed.  I think that actually paying the cost of the products we use would change things.  I think, though that Mike and James Michael would think of that as a raise in taxes.  I think of fixing the pollutants dumped into the environment by using fossil fuels in the same way as I think of washing the dishes, or making sure that the meat is fully cooked.  It's for health and safety, and only a fool would avoid it for his only good and the good of his family.

     Mike and James Michael aren't necessarily arguing for typhus or salmonella, though doing nothing ends up having that effect on themselves and their families.  They're simply not thinking of alternative ways of dealing with the issues that don't cost money or cost money in a more dependable or more palatable way.

     So here's a thought.  Why not spend some time thinking of a free market or libertarian or Republican method of addressing these issues that actually will force a change to cleaner energy and cleaner manufacturing processes.  My understanding, by the way, is that the cap and trade actually started off as a Republican proposal 20 or more years ago, and was designed to be a free market method of dealing with pollution.  I'd have to do some actual research to find out about that, and I don't think it actually matters all that much.  At its heart it remains a way of setting up a pollution market.  It may work, it may not; but there really ought to be some good Republican thinking on the subject someplace that doesn't actually pretend there is no actual issue.

     If we're going to have a real discussion, here, that seems like an interesting subject to explore.  You've been clearly upset with what you feel are "Democratic" solutions, or solutions put forward by this administration; and you certainly have every right to be.  Why not talk about some solutions that you feel would benefit not only business, but also everybody else without adding to the tax burden and fitting the other Republican standards that feel justifiably important to you?

     A guy, Mike, could Run with a challenge like that.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven

Balladeer
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71 posted 01-07-2010 09:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Good thoughts, Bob, and I'll try to give it some thought myself, although I will be the first to say that I certainly have no expertise in those areas.

Of course I could say, tongue in cheek, that if your two main concerns are population control and clean air, let the air get dirtier and you won't have to worry about population control! (but I won't say that)
Bob K
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72 posted 01-07-2010 11:57 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Please, Mike, say that!  Say that!  Once again, the humor is roaring in good form!

BK
Juju
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73 posted 01-08-2010 10:20 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

J-
hehehe

B-
I was just trying to point out the problem with the logic. I don't think I have a problem, because I question what poeple tell me in life. I was meerly pointing out that both ice cream sales and crime increas in the summer.

Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Bob K
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74 posted 01-08-2010 03:47 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I'm melting!  I'm melting!  All my glorious wickedness!  I'm melting!
 
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