How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Ralph Peters vs. Deadly Political Correc   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Ralph Peters vs. Deadly Political Correctness

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


25 posted 11-12-2009 01:54 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     So after thirty years, neither of you guys seem to have any feelings of betrayal or upset from the way you were treated and weren't bitter at all.  And of course that would blow my theory completely out of the water, because it was predicated on people actually having severe and long-lasting reactions to stuff like this that might last for long periods of time, and which might cause somebody to feel large amounts of resentment and bitterness.

      I sympathize with both of you.  At least one of the reasons that you didn't have members of the 442nd going off in this fashion is that they were not being sent to fight the Japanese, which might have caused similar conflicts; or  perhaps not, of course, because I really don't know, any more than you do.

     As for troops from Vietnam, I spoke of those in a different context than you are using here, that is, as a bunch of folks who were on the receiving end of unjustified ill treatment.  I felt that at the time and I still feel that today.  Your belligerent response is understandable, of course, and in many ways is one of the common responses of people who've been on the tough end of prejudicial comments.  In your case you quote some, which I won't repeat here.  It doesn't sound like you're happier with them now than you were at the time.
This would be one of the things you and Major Hasan would have in common, being on the butt end of nasty comments with minimal connection to reality.

     Major Hasan went on to change that.  You didn't.

     One other distinction between you and the Major is that both of you, as I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong) served overseas in combat, and Major Hasan did not.  My understanding is that combat troops by and large are a much more disciplined bunch of people, less given to  such things, than are less experienced troops.  So the example you would be searching for is sort of an apples and oranges sort of thing, combat troops versus non-combat troops.

     The example you'd be looking for is probably more famously portrayed in the incident at Kent State, where a detachment of National Guardsmen killed five students.  I don't know what the number of wounded ran to, if any.  If you wanted to look at returning soldiers, you might consider Tim McVeigh, who killed 168 government workers in attempting to start a race war by following the scenario laid out by the Right Wing White Supremacist novel The Turner Diaries.  The casualties were higher, the right wing christian fundamentalist religion connection seemed to be fairly direct and it was a terrorist attack.  That flowed out of the First Gulf War, as I recall.  

     McVeigh, if I understand correctly, was hoping to  get the administration to use the army to crack down on right wing gun owners to get the gun owners to rise up in a civil war.  The fact that there were no large number of military folk killed (were there military inside the building at the time?  I don't remember) if any was not the point.  Had McVeigh had his way, large numbers of them would have been.

     McVeigh could have had a V-8 instead.

     If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, then it's — a terrorist?, a religious nut?, a man who felt he had nothing to loose?, a guy with secondary PTSD? — what?
Which of these is your "Duck," John?  All of them?  part of them, something I haven't thought to mention yet?

     Or are you simply using the word "duck" as a semantically meaningless placeholder for something approximating a political thing you loathe but don't know how to describe?

     I don't see anybody saying Major Hasan is a swell fella, and one that you ought to raise your kids to emulate.  So what are you trying to say?

     It sounds like you're trying to say that only a Muslim could be this bad.  If you're saying that, I disagree with you.   It sounds like you're saying that nobody else has done stuff like this before.  If you're saying that, I disagree with you.  It sounds to me like you're saying that only Major Hasan bears responsibility for this.  If you're saying that, I disagree with you.  I won't say that he shouldn't be tried, and that the amount of his responsibility shouldn't be determined, and that appropriate action shouldn't be taken.  It should be.

     To lay all responsibility at Major Hasan's feet, however, is irresponsible, because it leaves the institutional conditions that can lead to this sort of thing in the future untouched.  Even if you wish to focus narrowly on the good of the service — and this is not a bad place to focus, though limited — it's a good idea to be able to see where the service can change policy to make incidents like this less rather than more likely in the future.

     And Mike, you're talking about Kerry and Obama.  I happen to find both guys interesting, but I think you forgot the Millard Fillmore connection.  I think all three of them were talking with the Illuminatti about the xyz affair.  Please, fill me in on how this all ties in with Ralph Peters vs. Deadly Political Correctness when you get a few moments.  Inquiring minds are waiting with bated breath.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


26 posted 11-12-2009 09:31 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, after your comment, I would not waste my time trying to fill you in on anything related to this. You are so far off the wall trying to relate to it that your comments, comparisons, deductions and attempts at justifications for despicable actions are fantasy. Forgive me if I don't bother.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


27 posted 11-12-2009 11:27 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"This would be one of the things you and Major Hasan would have in common, being on the butt end of nasty comments with minimal connection to reality.

     Major Hasan went on to change that.  You didn't."


Well Mike, we've been found out:
no guts!

.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


28 posted 11-12-2009 01:18 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Guess so, John. Actually, I though that "being on the butt end of nasty comments with minimal connection to reality" referred to here in the Alley!
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


29 posted 11-12-2009 01:38 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:

     As for troops from Vietnam, I spoke of those in a different context than you are using here, that is, as a bunch of folks who were on the receiving end of unjustified ill treatment.  I felt that at the time and I still feel that today.  Your belligerent response is understandable, of course, and in many ways is one of the common responses of people who've been on the tough end of prejudicial comments.  In your case you quote some, which I won't repeat here.  It doesn't sound like you're happier with them now than you were at the time.
This would be one of the things you and Major Hasan would have in common, being on the butt end of nasty comments with minimal connection to reality.

     Major Hasan went on to change that.  You didn't.



     Major Hasan changed it by committing mass murder.  He justified the various nasty things said, at least in reference to himself.  Neither of the two of you, far as I know, did anything to justify any of the unjust things said about you.  Just the opposite.  I must say, there's nothing like being quoted out of context to make a guy's day.  Thanks, fellas.

     Mike, I was a great pains to say that Major Hasan did loads of despicable things.

     I refuse to believe that you find reason impossible to deal with.   I refuse to believe that you find it impossible to respond to the points I'm making.   If you believe that I've said anything untrue or unreasonable, specify it and say why, please.  That is a reasonable request.

     John, if I thought either of you lacked guts, I would have found an unambiguous way to say so.  I think both of you are fine with your courage, thank you.  I have been clear about admiring that about you before.  Admiration does not equal agreement in every case, and it apparently doesn't here.  Mowing down unarmed men doesn't seem to require courage at any rate, as Major Hasan did, though he may well have believed he was going to die at the end of it.  It does seem to require a massive sense of grudge.  

    I would still like to know what the actual odd sort of duck you see Major Hasan representing here may be.  I went into a little detail about that in my last posting, only to find that you've suggested I've called the two of you gutless.  

     The people who should have acted to get Major Hasan out of the Army and did not let the army down.  Were either of you one of those people?  Were either of you in a position to stop the thing by sending the complaints about the man's behavior up the chain of command with an endorsement?  Were either of you in a position to register a complaint yourself and fail to do so?

     I didn't think so.

     I do have my reservations about the folks who were in a position to do something and didn't do it.

     John, you asked about people who acted in similar crazy ways after returning from combat.  I pointed out that I didn't think the problem was with returning combat veterans — although prejudice has often been turned against them with minimal justification, and not only after Vietnam — but with people on their way overseas.  This was Major Hasan's situation.

     I did go to some lengths to answer your question.  I mentioned the Ohio National Guard in relation to Kent State.  These were folks who were worried about possible deployment overseas and their roles as soldiers.  Then I mentioned Tim MCVeigh as an example of a returning soldier.  Mr. McVeigh was also a fundamentalist white power Christian who believed his actions hight set off a race war and bring down the government.  He hated Blacks and Jews, among others.  He, too, like Major Hasan, seems to fit on the cusp of religious fanatic, terrorist and mass-murderer/spree killer.  

      I suspect you didn't consider the situation long enough to understand that there really were counterexamples, or what the counterexamples might mean.  I would actually like to talk about that; I think it'd be an interesting discussion.

     One thing they do not mean, I feel sure, is that Major Hasan needs special slack to be cut for him.  I don't believe he does.  He needs to be tried and to have a punishment decided by a court-martial, if that is the appropriate forum.  We need to know what he did wrong, and he should be held accountable for whatever the decision is on that.

     We also need to know where procedure went wrong in dealing with Major Hasan, and we need to fix those things too.  

     We might also find it useful to inquire how much of this incident is in fact a terrorist incident and how much is something else, like a school shooting incident, or a postal shooting incident or a Texas Tower sort of thing.

     It may look like a duck, quack like a duck and be a common cold; or it may look like a duck, quack like a duck and be the beginning of pneumonia or the flu.  You can claim it's a duck all day and all night, and you'd be smart to start legal proceedings against it right away, but you'd better wait until you get the lab results back before you claim you've ruled out everything else but duck.  Anything else would be fowl play.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


30 posted 11-12-2009 05:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ok, Bob, I hadn't planned on wasting the time but I'll try to explain my comment. I'm not going to beat the dead horse ad nasuem, though.
So after thirty years, neither of you guys seem to have any feelings of betrayal or upset from the way you were treated and weren't bitter at all.

Bob, you are not in a position to know our feelings - or to be able to even understand them....and by the way we were treated by who? The Army? The Viet Cong?  The government? The American public? God? Who, Bob?


and which might cause somebody to feel large amounts of resentment and bitterness. Toward who? The possibilities I listed above?

I spoke of those in a different context than you are using here, that is, as a bunch of folks who were on the receiving end of unjustified ill treatment.   Unjustified treatment by who? I'm not getting your point here.

in many ways is one of the common responses of people who've been on the tough end of prejudicial comments. Prejudicial comments by who? The only prejudicial comments I have endured came from politicians like Kerry, in his search for votes, those like Hanoi Jane, and the American people, who turned their heads the other way.

My understanding is that combat troops by and large are a much more disciplined bunch of people, less given to  such things, I have no idea where that understanding comes from but it's wrong.

This would be one of the things you and Major Hasan would have in common, being on the butt end of nasty comments with minimal connection to reality. I have not seen anywhere where Major Hasan had been subject to nasty comments prior to his actions. Ifyou have, show me.


     The example you'd be looking for is probably more famously portrayed in the incident at Kent State,
I don't see where Kent State has any connection at all. True, I wasn't in the country when that happened but it was my understanding that the National Guard fired on protesters, which I agree was a ridiculous thing to do. But how is that comparable to a soldier loading his pistols and going out and shooting as many people as possible? Is that what the National Guard did? Advanced on the Kent State campus and just started shooting students to see how many they could kill? If so, then I see your comparison.

If you wanted to look at returning soldiers, you might consider Tim McVeigh,
  McVeigh, if I understand correctly, was hoping to  get the administration to use the army to crack down on right wing gun owners to get the gun owners to rise up in a civil war.


No, McVeigh was a duck. McVeigh was evil. McVeigh  killed almost 200 people in hopes to get the administration to do something? Are you serious?

   Or are you simply using the word "duck" as a semantically meaningless placeholder for something approximating a political thing you loathe but don't know how to describe?

John describes it very well by saying duck. SOmetimes you need to recognize what's in front of your nose, without coming up with excuses, justifications and made-up scenarios. Should Muslims  be given special attention? Well, let's see. Muslims...
(1) carried out the first attack on the WTC
(2) attacked the US Cole
(3) attacked the American embassies
(4) brought down the WTC
(5) was arrested for trying to light his shoe to bring down a US plane
(6) were just arrested on multiple charges for proposed bombings in the US in the near future.

Is it just me or is there some recurring theme that unites those actions?

SHould they be given attention if something comes up to warrant it or are you one who feels that we need to check at least one 85 year old grandmother for every Muslim boarding a plane, so as to maintain the political  correctness of the situation? If the authorities that be  came up with evidence that the Major was in contact with Al-qada and had made derrogatory remarks against the US military, along with other things, wouldn't it be a good idea to pay special attention to this man, regardless of any calls of "political correctness" that they could provoke? Yes, Bob, I would check every Muslim in the military....call me a xenophobe. SHould the day come that blondes become responsible for every major terrorist attack against the country, I would start paying more attention to blondes.

It sounds like you're trying to say that only a Muslim could be this bad.   I suggest you have a problem taking the sounds that enter your ear and translating them into cognizant thoughts. For the life of me I cannot understand how you could come up with that one. A duck is a duck, Bob, regardless of his nationality or religion. If you can't recognize that, you have my condolences.

Please, fill me in on how this all ties in with Ralph Peters vs. Deadly Political Correctness Why now? Majot Hasan had a lot of support, thanks to people like Kerry and even Obama or anyone eho badmouthed the military and called them murderers and baby killers. They helped him justify his actions.


"fowl play"...I give you points for that one  
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


31 posted 11-12-2009 06:06 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I would check every Muslim in the military....


Really? That doesn't sound like a good idea Mike, unless you believe that only Muslims are capable of committing such acts.

I'd check anyone who showed any signs that they might be a danger to other people.

quote:
A duck is a duck, Bob, regardless of his nationality or religion.


Yet you'd still only check the Muslims.. There's a word for that Mike.

quote:
Majot Hasan had a lot of support, thanks to people like Kerry and even Obama or anyone eho badmouthed the military and called them murderers and baby killers.


Let me get this straight, people who kill babies can't be called baby killers if they're in the military - sounds like political correctness gone mad if you ask me Mike - if it walks like a duck..

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


32 posted 11-12-2009 06:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Don't bother, mr. grinch...
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


33 posted 11-12-2009 08:15 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“My understanding is that combat troops by and large are a much more disciplined bunch of people, less given to  such things, I have no idea where that understanding comes from but it's wrong.”


I’m sorry Mike but in this case I must disagree.  We in the Marines at least understood
it was not the grunt serving in combat but the typists and PX clerks that represented
the greatest danger.


.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


34 posted 11-12-2009 08:21 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

"Let me get this straight, people who kill babies can't be called baby killers if they're in the military -"

Just how many of those who served were that?

...................

In the name of full disclosure, I have to admit my criminality,
in that I without any sense of guilt, though any court would find me
evil, freely gave my C-rat cans of ham and lima beans to children.
I was young which in the end is no excuse.
It’s a burden that weighs upon me to this day.


.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


35 posted 11-12-2009 09:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ok, John, I'll accept that. They are certainly the ones  that can cause the most damage.

DOn't worry about grinch. He's just baiting....again.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


36 posted 11-13-2009 01:55 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     C-ration lima beans have a reputation even in the civilian world, John.  What were you trying to do to those poor kids?  Save them from starvation and impose a fate worse than death all at the same time!

     Kidding or not, Grinch has a point about language and language sensitivity.

     It's off base to call returning G.I.s that sort of thing on the basis of clearly screwball behavior by some out of control units.  It wasn't the norm or even close to the norm.

     To blame all muslims for the behavior of radical jihadis is the same sort of logic.  It doesn't work. I understand Mike's explanation for the walks like a duck and quacks like a duck comment.  I don't think it fits the facts very well, and the blanket indictment of Muslims is irrational.  If Mike were to issue a blanket indictment of all those who urge violence as an element of religious faith, I might be willing to go there, especially if he were able to supply the history to go with it.  

     Then, of course, we'd have to weed out those whose violence seems to have been pretty much in the past, like Lutherans during the Hundred Years War, or Church of England folks, during the 16th and 17th centuries, and some of the internal heretical witch hunts within Catholicism and Islam.  There aren't a lot of folks left when you do all the historical sorting.  

     People who raise the cry of Crusade or Jihad would make the list on any side, but these are really pretty much a minority in any religion.

     Locating evil in the form of the Muslims is simply not good use of categories.  

     It isn't good enough because it isn't parsimonious enough.  It wouldn't have gotten Tim McVeigh off an airplane, assuming that he would actually be careless enough to try to ride one with all the explosives he was driving around.  It wouldn't have stopped that Egyptian airlines pilot several years back from diving his plane into the ocean, nor would it have stopped Whitman from climbing up into the Texas Tower.

     The trick is to come up with explanations that work, not with explanations that look good and leave us feeling swell.  This is why doctors have conferences after patients die in hospitals.  They want to know why it happened, and they want to know if there's something about the system that could have prevented it if the system were different.  

     Nobody wants to acknowledge mistakes so they might be understood and corrected.  The military is no different from any other institution in this regard.

     This doesn't mean Major Nadal isn't at fault.  We need to understand how and where he is at fault, and then figure out how come the system didn't work well in this case.  If you wish to lay blame on political correctness, then it needs to be specified how the political correctness got in the way, and what things would have happened if it hadn't been there.

     The idea is not to squeeze your eyes tight and stick your fingers in your ears so as not to understand what went on, and to blame it all on the new kid on the block.
That's not the problem.  There are always new kids on the block.  How is this new kid different or getting treated differently so that the result is different?

     Otherwise, you're simply scapegoating, and you don't really need people for that.  All you need are goats.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


37 posted 11-13-2009 10:38 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

“Time’s Joe Klein decried “odious attempts by Jewish extremists . . . to argue that the massacre perpetrated by Nidal Hasan was somehow a direct consequence of his Islamic beliefs.” While none could match Klein’s peculiar cherchez-le-juif motif, the popular storyline was of an Army psychiatrist driven over the edge by terrible stories he had heard from soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan.

They suffered. He listened. He snapped.

Really? What about the doctors and nurses, the counselors and physical therapists at Walter Reed Army Medical Center who every day hear and live with the pain and the suffering of returning soldiers? How many of them then picked up a gun and shot 51 innocents?  

And what about civilian psychiatrists — not the Upper West Side therapist treating Woody Allen neurotics, but the thousands of doctors working with hospitalized psychotics — who every day hear not just tales but cries of the most excruciating anguish, of the most unimaginable torment? How many of those doctors commit mass murder?

It’s been decades since I practiced psychiatry. Perhaps I missed the epidemic.

But, of course, if the shooter is named Nidal Hasan, whom National Public Radio reported had been trying to proselytize doctors and patients, then something must be found. Presto! Secondary post-traumatic stress disorder, a handy invention to allow one to ignore the obvious.

And the perfect moral finesse. Medicalizing mass murder not only exonerates. It turns the murderer into a victim, indeed a sympathetic one. After all, secondary PTSD, for those who believe in it (you won’t find it in DSM-IV-TR, psychiatry’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual), is known as “compassion fatigue.” The poor man — pushed over the edge by an excess of sensitivity.

Have we totally lost our moral bearings?”


http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NzZlOWRmZTQ1MWZhZWUwNjY5NDhlZjU0NThiYjhlNGM=


It is this habit of pointing to rather than ignoring the obvious that has me reading Krauthammer.

.

Poetal
Member
since 11-09-2009
Posts 74
Texas, United States


38 posted 11-13-2009 11:36 AM       View Profile for Poetal   Email Poetal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poetal

In a nut shell it's Satan's world and anything goes until Jesus steps in and puts an end to it all.
Mysteria
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 03-07-2001
Posts 19652
British Columbia, Canada


39 posted 11-13-2009 02:04 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

I have difficulty understanding how people could have known for at least six months
there was problem and do nothing serious about it.

I have difficulty with this too.  When human lives are at stake, I would sure throw my political correctness right out the door.  A lot of us up here are waiting to hear how this fell through the cracks.  So very sad.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


40 posted 11-13-2009 03:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

To blame all muslims for the behavior of radical jihadis is the same sort of logic.
and the blanket indictment of Muslims is irrational.


I agree completely, Bob.  Who do you suggest is blaming all Muslims? WHo is issuing a blanket indictment? If you are referring to me or John, please point our your evidence to suport that charge

I agree that anyone who triggers a red flag needs to be checked out. The major triggered several red flags. What I am saying is that, if red flags were triggered by a Muslim, at a time that every terrorist attack in the past decade against America or Americans has been conducted by Muslims, or radicals using the Muslim faith to condone their actions, that would be on a high importance level, definitely moreso than Aunt Sadie in Poukeepsie. Should a thorough investigation turn out to show innocence, then fine. There are tens of thousands of Muslims who are indeed innocent and do not support such activities. To NOT give it special importance, however, is not only foolhardy, it borders on criminal neglect. We can thank our lucky stars that the four men just arrested for the planning of future bombings in the U.S. were given special scrutiny due to the red flags they tripped.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


41 posted 11-13-2009 06:32 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

This, and the decision regarding Khalid Shaikh Mohammed . . .

I think there’s a good chance that the West
as we knew it may one day lie under a stone
marked not with “R.I.P.”  but “T.S.T.L.”
Too Stupid To . . .


It puts me in mind of the story of the Warsaw Ghetto
where Jewish leaders collaborated with the Nazis in
rounding up their population until almost the end,
by which time it was too late, because despite the
evidence provided and that before their own eyes
they refused to believe what was actually happening..

It’s a consolation that I will most likely be dead
before that stone, relatively soon in historical terms,
is laid.

.


Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


42 posted 11-13-2009 07:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Don't even get me started on that decision, John. The stone will have a lot of validity.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


43 posted 11-13-2009 10:45 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

          These are from your posting # 30 on this thread.  I am glad to hear you say that you don't condemn Muslims en masse.  You can see from these quotes, I think, why I might have thought you were doing so.

quote:

Bob says:

   Or are you simply using the word "duck" as a semantically meaningless placeholder for something approximating a political thing you loathe but don't know how to describe?

Mike responds:

John describes it very well by saying duck. SOmetimes you need to recognize what's in front of your nose, without coming up with excuses, justifications and made-up scenarios. Should Muslims  be given special attention? Well, let's see. Muslims...
(1) carried out the first attack on the WTC
(2) attacked the US Cole
(3) attacked the American embassies
(4) brought down the WTC
(5) was arrested for trying to light his shoe to bring down a US plane
(6) were just arrested on multiple charges for proposed bombings in the US in the near future.

Is it just me or is there some recurring theme that unites those actions?

SHould they be given attention if something comes up to warrant it or are you one who feels that we need to check at least one 85 year old grandmother for every Muslim boarding a plane, so as to maintain the political  correctness of the situation? If the authorities that be  came up with evidence that the Major was in contact with Al-qada and had made derrogatory remarks against the US military, along with other things, wouldn't it be a good idea to pay special attention to this man, regardless of any calls of "political correctness" that they could provoke? Yes, Bob, I would check every Muslim in the military....call me a xenophobe. SHould the day come that blondes become responsible for every major terrorist attack against the country, I would start paying more attention to blondes.

Bob says:
It sounds like you're trying to say that only a Muslim could be this bad.  

Mike responds:
I suggest you have a problem taking the sounds that enter your ear and translating them into cognizant thoughts. For the life of me I cannot understand how you could come up with that one. A duck is a duck, Bob, regardless of his nationality or religion. If you can't recognize that, you have my condolences.




     Despite my requests, by the way, you should notice, neither one of you have seen fit to actually clarify what you mean by the term in any way that would be a satisfactory dictionary definition, one where I could see what you meant and understand it as a non-prejudicial comment.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


44 posted 11-14-2009 08:06 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sorry, Bob, I see nothing there to indicate I condemn muslims en masse. There was no condemnation there, only a comment that they should be high on the list of those being investigated or watched until such would indicate either innocence or something else. That should be a normal thought process, I would think. If a muslim carried out every terrorist activity for the past decade and you had information that there was the potential of a bomb on a plane and there were three muslims on the plane, who would you be paying the most attention to? If you say anything but the three muslims you are either lying or drunk.

We do very foolish things. In order not to single out muslims, we decided to check passengers at random in order not to show prejudice. Therefore Grandma Mabel might be randomly checked and a muslim not, even though all terrorists have been muslims. Make sense to you? The major was not investigated more, even after the red flags, because no one wanted to run afoul of the political correctness. That make sense to you?

If all terrorist activities were conducted by left-handed people, would it not be prudent to be concerned about left-handed people more than right when red flags pop up, even though there are millions of lefties who are not terrorists? I don't understand why this is so hard for you to understand.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


45 posted 11-14-2009 08:57 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I would check every Muslim in the military


If that isn't targeting Muslims simply because they're Muslims Mike I don't know what is.

.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


46 posted 11-14-2009 10:38 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think going out of the way to be more careful about people of a particular religion or cult is justified when that religion or cult is one in which many members are presently terrorizing the world.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


47 posted 11-14-2009 11:39 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

So far, as best I can tell, all the terrorists have been men. That's clearly the group we should be targeting. And yet, when I'm at the airport -- or shopping for groceries or just walking down the street -- I seem to watch the women much more closely than all those potentially dangerous males. Must be I'm either lying or drunk?

Maybe both.


Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


48 posted 11-14-2009 11:41 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Unfortunately that covers just about every religious group and cult Ess - including Christians.

You could narrow your focus slightly, as Mike suggested, and concentrate on the group that, statistically, has committed the most terrorist attacks on American soil. In which case you'd be looking to target American males.

I'd suggest a different tactic - I'd suggest you ignore every group bar two when looking for potential terrorists.

.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


49 posted 11-14-2009 11:44 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“Diversity” is one of those words designed to absolve you of the need to think. Likewise, a belief in “multiculturalism” doesn’t require you to know anything at all about other cultures, just to feel generally warm and fluffy about them. Heading out from my hotel room the other day, I caught a glimpse of that 7-Eleven video showing Major Hasan wearing “Muslim” garb to buy a coffee on the morning of his murderous rampage. And it wasn’t until I was in the taxi cab that something odd struck me: He was an American of Arab descent. But he was wearing Pakistani dress — that’s to say, a “Punjabi suit,” as they call it in Britain, or the shalwar kameez, to give it its South Asian name. For all the hundreds of talking heads droning on about “diversity” across the TV networks, it was only Tarek Fatah, writing in the Ottawa Citizen, who pointed out that no Arab males wear this get-up — with one exception: Those Arab men who got the jihad fever and went to Afghanistan to sign on with the Taliban and al-Qaeda. In other words, Major Hasan’s outfit symbolized the embrace of an explicit political identity entirely unconnected with his ethnic heritage.”


http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NGYzZTExZWU0NjZhYTM2ODdiNmU2NDMyNzUzMTk5NzY=&w=MQ  ==


I would check every duck in the military.

But that was done in this case . . .
and now fourteen are dead, (there was
an unborn child).

.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Ralph Peters vs. Deadly Political Correc   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors