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Passions in Poetry

Random Thoughts on Limbaugh and Glenn Beck

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Balladeer
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100 posted 10-20-2009 01:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

True enough, Bob. People sometimes see what they want to see. People who want to see a racist will do so. People who want to see conspiracy will do so. People who want to see a man trying to expose miscreants, regardless of color, will do so. It's a human trait, I'm told.
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101 posted 10-20-2009 06:58 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Observer effect.
Huan Yi
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102 posted 10-20-2009 07:08 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"     I was very upset about the allegations you made about the White House spokesperson.  Having reviewed the article and the tape, I see that I need not have worried myself.  The praise of Mao that I had read into the situation was not there in the least, nor was any comment about his human rights, nor was, in fact, any approval of his for of government, simply that he was an effective leader.  Hate him as much as you wish, to suggest him to be ineffective would likely be a mistake."


Substitute "Hitler" in place of "Mao"
Still work for you?

.

Bob K
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103 posted 10-21-2009 03:14 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear John,

     Do you have any particular maxims by Hitler that you would suggest might be substituted with any sort of appropriateness?  Does Hitler follow or even attempt to fit into the Chinese wisdom tradition?  Does Hitler try to bridge between the Chinese wisdom tradition and modernity?  Does Hitler attempt to fill in the Chinese tradition of emperors seizing the throne "with bloody hands?"

     Did the speech offer unqualified praise of Mao, or did the speech use one element of Mao's political philosophy to make a point?  

     Would you disagree with that point?

      Would you say that the use of Mother Teresa to make the point was made less effective by using Mao Zedoing to make the same point first.  I thought that using Mao first made the later introduction of Mother Teresa much more powerful, and work far better than the use of somebody — say Norman Vincent Peale — to make the same sort of point.

     I would characterize Mao Zedong as a political Philosopher and Hitler as your basic racist lunatic, myself.  Mao did have some serious things to say about the sources of power, and some interesting observations about the nature of  — you should pardon the expression — the people.  The things he had to say were not entirely crazy.  Some were quite useful and pungent, especially about the nature of guerilla warfare and how the guerillas depend on their relationship with the population.  His comment about power and gun barrels is well known.  Some folks consider him to have things to say on the level of Sun Tzu.  I don't put him at that level, but he's certainly close.

     Hitler doesn't have anything like those philosophical chops, if, really, any at all, those he's long on charisma and foam at the mouth madness.  

     Nor does Stalin have anything like that sort of philosophical stature.  Marx does, but not in pragmatic terms; not in the same terms as — as I said before — Sun Tzu.

     Hitler was not a particularly good General or commander.  He had good Generals and commanders that worked for him and whom he listened to or didn't listen to as the whim struck him.

     Does this make Mao a warm and wonderful guy?

     I think not.  And his record for mass death, as you portray it seems accurate.

     Nobody was drawing on his authority as a warm and wonderful guy in the speech, they were using him as an example of a good political philosopher.  He was a better than good political philosopher.  Your disagreement with his record of mass death doesn't diminish his stature as a political philosopher at all.   I don't like his record of mass death, either.

     I don't know, for that matter, that Pope John Paul II's poetry is made extraordinary by his being a pope, for that matter, much as we'd like to believe that things really are that black and white.

     What do you think of the movement afoot to start calling Alexander the Great , now, Alexander of Macaedon because he was so much of a a conqueror and murderer?   Do you find it disturbingly politically correct, or do you welcome it as an appropriate recognition of the truth of the situation?

     The same question could easily be posited about Mao Zedong, I believe.

     Though not about his stature as a Political Philosopher; nor, really about Hitler's lack of such stature.

     That's my best and most thoughtful take on your question at this point, John.  What is your thinking in response?

Yours, Bob Kaven
Balladeer
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104 posted 10-21-2009 08:08 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I just got around to watching the video and I think you're dancing to the wrong tune, Bob, and perhaps employing a little type of damage control.

She called Mao one her favorite philosophers. Why? Because he said "find your own path". THAT is a great piece of philosophy? His "path" led to the murder of millions. Hitler? Well, he wrote Mein Kamph. I'm sure someone could find a "philosophical" message in there to rival "find your own path". The mention of Mother Theresa only accentuates her message, which appears to be "It doesn't matter what the end result may be, as long as you do it your way". She may even hum the Sinatra song in her sleep. It MUST be her anthem. I see nothing in Mao's makeup that would make him a "great philosopher" in my book. Perhaps I'm just not as enlightened as she is.

There seems to be a recurring theme among Democratic heavyweights. She admires Mao as a great philosopher. Michael Moore praises the Cuban health care system under Castro. Another high-level admin official (forgot the name) recently praised Hugo Chavez and his handling of Venezuela's news outlets, which consists of shutting down all opposition or free-thinking stations.

They have strange heroes, wouldn't one think?
Balladeer
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105 posted 10-21-2009 02:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ah, that high level administration official is Mark Lloyd, Obama's new communications czar, who is quoted as saying..“It should be clear by now that my focus here is not freedom of speech or the press,” he said. “This freedom is all too often an exaggeration. At the very least, blind references to freedom of speech or the press serve as a distraction from the critical examination of other communications policies.”

Cool...an FCC czar whose focus is not freedom of speech. How refreshing.....
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106 posted 10-21-2009 03:10 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     And John, what do you think of Mike's survey of the collected works of Mao Zedong?  Perhaps you have drawn your conclusions from the same sweeping familiarity Mike has just displayed?

     If so, then both of you ought to pat yourselves on the backs.  

     Mike can read two words of German, which is probably only slightly worse than my own maybe three words of German.  He might then be able to specify the new interesting and sophisticated elements of Political Philosophy in Mein Kampf.  Perhaps you can.

     When I read it, it was a long list of complaints against the folks who won the first world war and who cramped the expansionist and nationalist ambitions of the German/ Austrian people.  He trucked in extreme right wing racial politics to give things an us versus them flavor and anti-Semitic acid to give the whole thing a crusading sort of flavor.  He put in in the context of his own experiences as a vet.  He spoke of how he and his fellows had been betrayed at home by the left wing communists, and said that he wasn't going to allow that sort of thing to happen again.  That greater Germany had a larger destiny to fulfill and he was the man to lead that Germany to power and Victory.  That was theSeig that everybody was hailing at all those party rallies.  

     Perhaps You or Mike could tell me where the Political Philosophy comes from in all of that?

     Or supply the Political Philosophy part that I seem to have missed.

     As for Mike's disposing of Mao as a Political Philosopher, I find his position curious.  He manages to do so on the basis of a single sentence selected for high school students.  The sentence says essentially the same thing that Mother Teresa says, who he finds basically sensible.  Ergo, at minimum, he finds the philosophy acceptable and only the messenger the problem — by its very definition the exemplar of ad hominem thinking.

     As is, actually, pretty much the whole discussion.

     If a proposition is true, it will remain true no matter whose mouth it comes out of.  This seems to be the crux of many discussions we have been having in these pages for a while now, now that I think on it.  If it is true when Mother Teresa says it, it is true when Mao Zedong says it.

     It would still be true if Hitler said it, though Hitler would probably be thinking other thoughts, being preoccupied with a more limited orbit.  Had he ventured outside that orbit and said these things, even the fact that Hitler said them wouldn't make them wrong.  Had Hitler said two plus two equal four, it would still be true.

     Mao was more interested in poetry and Political Philosophy and governance.  He died of natural causes, a very old man.  I don't think he was a swell fellow, but his concerns included governance and Political Philosophy, and he had some smart things to say about them.  Everybody in the world does not agree with everything he had to say.  Hannah Arendt, a noted Political and Moral Philosopher herself and author of Eichmann in Jerusalem  disagreed with him on some points.  So have other Political Philosophers.

     Unlike Mike, Ms. Arendt seems to have actually done the correct thing and read the man she was going to disagree with in some depth before she condemned him out of hand.  Then she limited her disagreement to those places where she felt she could actually make a case.

     Were Mike to suggest that we should bring a human rights case against Mao, I'd be with him.  Should John suggest it, I'd agree as well.  But this wasn't the proposal.

     I'd actually be interested in looking at Mao's poetry, to see if IU can find a good translation.  Maybe I would find my feelings about his civil rights record would get in the way of my appreciation or evaluation of his poetry.  I'd be interested to know that about myself.  That part of me doesn't particularly respond to principles or rules; it sort of makes up its own rules as I go along.  There are poets I don't like personally whose poetry I like very much.  Rimbaud, for example, I find repellent as a person but quite fine as a poet.  Who knows about Mao?
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107 posted 10-21-2009 03:13 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

           In reference to your post 105 above, whose quotes would those be, and from where and when?  

     I'd like to have a look at the context.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Balladeer
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108 posted 10-21-2009 03:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

http://www.ask.com/web?l=dis&o=13992&qsrc=2873&q=communications%20czar

Pick either of the first two, Bob...and there are others.
Grinch
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109 posted 10-21-2009 04:01 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Bob,

The quotes are from a book called "Prologue to a Farce - Communication and Democracy in America".

Page 20 to be precise.

But if you're going to read it I'd start at the very beginning - apart from it being a very good place to start (Doh a Deer and all that) - it also helps to understand the context.
http://books.google.com/books?id=SbmxyHXadQ4C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Balladeer
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110 posted 10-21-2009 04:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Mike can read two words of German

Ah, Bob, you just can't keep making the same wrong assumptions, can you? I think I've mentioned here more than once that I lived three years in Germany. I've been through checkpoint Charlie and visited Hitler's bunkers in Garmisch and Berchesgarten and have  enjoyed the pleasures of Munich and the Black forest....and even managed to pick up more than two words of German.

He manages to do so on the basis of a single sentence selected for high school students.
No, Bob, I did so on the single sentence that Dunn used in her speech.

If it is true when Mother Teresa says it, it is true when Mao Zedong says it.
     It would still be true if Hitler said it, though Hitler would probably be thinking other thoughts, being preoccupied with a more limited orbit.


...and you  don't think Mao was thinking other throughts than Mother Teresa? Of course the sentence is true, no matter who says it. Is that enough for you to call him one of your favorite philosophers?

Mao was more interested in poetry and Political Philosophy and governance.
Ah, yes, Mao the poetry lover and philosopher. The mass murdering of hundreds of thousands was just to fill time when no good poetry books could be found, I suppose. He died  of the same natural causes Capone died of.

I'd actually be interested in looking at Mao's poetry, to see if IU can find a good translation.  Maybe I would find my feelings about his civil rights record would get in the way of my appreciation or evaluation of his poetry.  I'd be interested to know that about myself.

Good idea, Bob. I also suggest that you purchase some of the paintings of...Dahlmer, I think it was..and see fi they appeal to you. He had a lot of fans, I hear....excludingt he family member of the people he ate, of course.

Hitler was a magnificent orator. One only has to look at videos of him giving his feiry speeches to hundreds of thousands of wildly cheering Germans. Should that make him one of my "favorite" orators?  Mao became a favorite philosopher of Dunn because he said "find your own path". Certainly there must have been other things he said that impressed her but, to use that phrase in her speech, it must have really been high on her list. I would suggest to her that she read Ziggy or perhaps Maxine. She could find equal  philosophical gems.

As I said, it's interesting how MAO, Castro, Chavez and the like make it on the Democratic most-admired lists. Why is that, do you suppose?
Grinch
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111 posted 10-21-2009 04:54 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Mao became a favorite philosopher of Dunn because he said "find your own path".


Mike,

Actually Mao never said "find your own path", that's clear if you listen to the video, the actual quote was:

You fight your war and I'll fight mine.

As political philosophical quotes go it's a bit of a gem - regardless of the source. In my opinion it's superior or at least on a par with mother Teresa's offering:

Go find your own Calcutta

Dunn tried to equate both of them to "find your own path" which is a bit of a stretch, it sort of had the essence of each but was too far removed to have any real connection.

"Fight for what you believe"

Might have been closer.

.
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112 posted 10-21-2009 05:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You fight your war and I'll fight mine is a philosophical gem?? I learn so much from these discussions...

Grinch
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113 posted 10-21-2009 06:18 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I'm glad you agree Mike.

Most people would miss the dual meaning of Mao's quote when applied to his own situation - faced with supposedly insurmountable odds that required specific tactics - and the implication that he was compelled to try precisely because it was his war.

Mother T's was similar but from a different angle, she was saying don't just donate to any charity out of some misplaced belief that you have a moral obligation - go and find your own cause - one you really believe in.

Both were saying that a good cause was one you passionately believed in and that passion is the engine of commitment.

I prefer Mao's quote, but only by a small margin.

Huan Yi
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114 posted 10-21-2009 07:31 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“Midway through Bush’s second term, press secretary Tony Snow goes along to Chester A. Arthur High School to give a graduation speech. “I know it looks tough right now. You’re young, you’re full of zip, but the odds seem hopeless. Let me tell you about another young man facing tough choices 80 years ago. It’s last orders at the Munich beer garden — gee, your principal won’t thank me for mentioning that — and all the natural blonds are saying, ‘But Adolf, see reason. The Weimar Republic’s here to stay, and besides the international Jewry control everything.’ And young Adolf Hitler puts down his foaming stein and stands on the table and sings a medley of ‘I Gotta Be Me,’ ‘(Learning to Love Yourself Is) The Greatest Love of All,’ and ‘The Sun’ll Come Out Tomorrow.’” And by the end of that night there wasn’t a Jewish greengrocer’s anywhere in town with glass in its windows. Don’t play by the other side’s rules; make your own kind of music. And always remember: You’ve gotta have a dream, if you don’t have a dream, how you gonna have a dream come true?”

Anyone think he’d still have a job?”


http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YzIxZDJhNTk2ZWQwNmYzOTI3ZmIwMDcyYzhlNzVjNzc=&w=MQ ==

My money says no.

By the way,  “Mein Kampf”, in English: “My Struggle”
which isn’t that far from: “My War”

.

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115 posted 10-21-2009 07:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actuallyt I remember a cartoon strip where Snoopy was lying on top of his dog house thinking "It doesn't matter what you believe in as long as you're sincere". He may have outdone Mao!
Essorant
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116 posted 10-21-2009 08:07 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

The English form of kampf is camp.  In Old English camp also meant "war, struggle, etc". Both of them go back to Latin campus "field", in the sense of a field used for armies and battle.  



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117 posted 10-21-2009 11:33 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel


McCain Quotes Mao http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYJ15vbo15w&feature=player_embedded

Gingrich Quotes Mao http://mediamatters.org/blog/200910160010

W tells Rove to read Mao http://mediamatters.org/blog/200910150036

Rush reminds us that he's not only a racist but a blatant sexist too: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/20/limbaugh-to-cnn-rporter-g_n_326948.html

quote:

Fellowship leader Doug Coe is described as preaching a leadership model, and a personal commitment to Jesus Christ, comparable to the blind devotion that Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Chairman Mao, and Pol Pot demanded from their followers.[19] In one videotaped 1989 lecture series, Coe said, "Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler were three men. Think of the immense power these three men had...But they bound themselves together in an agreement...Two years before they moved into Poland, these three men had...systematically a plan drawn out...to annihilate the entire Polish population and destroy by numbers every single house...every single building in Warsaw and then to start on the rest of Poland." Coe adds that it worked; they killed six and a half million "Polish people." Though he calls Nazis "these enemies of ours," he compares their commitment to Jesus' demands: "Jesus said, ‘You have to put me before other people. And you have to put me before yourself.' Hitler, that was the demand to be in the Nazi party. You have to put the Nazi party and its objectives ahead of your own life and ahead of other people."[19][20]

Coe also compares Jesus' teachings with the Red Guard during the Chinese Cultural Revolution:

    I’ve seen pictures of young men in the Red Guard of China...they would bring in this young man’s mother and father, lay her on the table with a basket on the end, he would take an axe and cut her head off....They have to put the purposes of the Red Guard ahead of the mother-father-brother-sister -- their own life! That was a covenant. A pledge. That was what Jesus said.[19][21]

David Kuo states that comparisons such as these aren't representative of the picture Douglas Coe was trying to paint:

    Kuo says Doug Coe wasn’t lauding Hitler's actions. “What Doug is saying, it’s a metaphor. He is using Hitler as a metaphor. Jesus used that,” Kuo said. A metaphor for what? “Commitment,” Kuo answered. ... [A] close friend told NBC News that Doug Coe invokes Hitler only to show the power of small groups -- for good and bad. And, the friend said, Coe spends “99 percent” of his time during the sermons talking about the leadership model set by Jesus Christ.[19]


The Fellowship is best known for organizing the National Prayer Breakfast, held each year on the first Thursday of February in Washington, D.C.[18][39] First held in 1953, the event is now attended by over 3,400 guests including dignitaries from many nations. The President of the United States typically makes an address at the breakfast. The event is officially hosted by members of Congress. Leading Democrats and Republicans serve on the organizing committee, and leadership alternates each year between the House and the Senate.

At the NPB, the President usually arrives an hour early and meets with foreign leaders, usually of small nations, and perhaps a dozen other guests chosen by the Fellowship.[40]

G. Philip Hughes, the executive secretary for the National Security Council in the George H.W. Bush administration, said, "Doug Coe or someone who worked with him would call and say, 'So and so would like to have a word with the president. Do you think you could arrange something?'"[14]

However, Doug Coe has said that the Fellowship does not help foreign dignitaries gain access to U.S. officials. "We never make any commitment, ever, to arrange special meetings with the president, vice president or secretary of State," Coe said. "We would never do it."[14]

At the 2001 Senate Foreign Relations Committee confirmation hearings for State Department officials, Fellowship member Sen. Bill Nelson (D-FL) complained that the State Department had blocked then-President Bush from meeting with four foreign heads of state (Rwanda, Macedonia, Congo and Slovakia) at the NPB that year.[14]

Senator Paul Sarbanes (D-MD) said of Nelson's complaint: "I'm not sure a head of state ought to be able to wander over here for the prayer breakfast and, in effect, compel the president of the United States to meet with him as a consequence... Getting these meetings with the president is a process that's usually very carefully vetted and worked up. Now sort of this back door has sort of evolved."[14]

“It [the NPB] totally circumvents the State Department and the usual vetting within the administration that such a meeting would require,” an anonymous government informant told sociologist D. Michael Lindsay. “If Doug Coe can get you some face time with the President of the United States, then you will take his call and seek his friendship. That’s power.”[40]

In 2009, the Family received a spate of media attention when three prominent Republicans associated with the Fellowship were reported to have engaged in extra-marital affairs. Two of them, Senator John Ensign and South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford, were considering running for President in 2012 and their affairs were known to the Family several months before becoming public. The affairs of Ensign and then-Congressman Chip Pickering, R-Miss., took place while they were living at the C Street Center. All three voted to impeach Bill Clinton; Ensign and Sanford had called for Clinton to resign over his affair with Monica Lewinsky.[58][59]
[edit] Senator John Ensign

Senator John Ensign, a Fellowship member and longtime resident of the C Street Center, admitted in July 2009 that he had had an extra-marital affair with a staffer. The announcement by Ensign brought additional public scrutiny of the Fellowship and the C Street Center, where Ensign lived with Senator Tom Coburn and other senior politicians.[60] Coburn, with Timothy and David Coe, attempted to intervene to end Ensign's affair in February 2008, before the affair became public; they met with the husband of Ensign's lover and encouraged Ensign to write a letter to her, breaking off the affair.[61][62][63] Ensign, who was driven to Federal Express from C Street Center to post the letter, shortly thereafter called his lover to tell her to ignore it.[61][62][63]

One of Doug Coe's grandchildren, Belen R Coe, was a paid intern in Senator Ensign's office in 2004.[64]
[edit] South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford

In June 2009, South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford, a Fellowship member and Congressman from 1995 to 2001, admitted to having an extramarital affair and said that months prior he had sought counseling at the C Street Center.[65] While attempting to decline federal stimulus funds for South Carolina, Sanford was using state money to fly first class to visit his lover in Argentina.[66] During his last secret trip to visit his lover in Argentina in June 2009, during which he told his staff he was hiking on the Appalachian trail, Sanford disappeared for four days and did not answer 15 calls from his chief of staff, Scott English, or let his family know where he was on Father's Day.[67]

Sanford "was a frequent visitor to the home for prayer meetings and meals during his time in Congress".[68] Sanford turned down his Congressional living allowance while serving in Washington, choosing instead to sleep in his office.[69] Recently, however, Sanford was found to have potentially violated state law by abusive use of state planes, including to fly to get a haircut.[70]
[edit] Congressman Chip Pickering

In 2009, Pickering's wife filed a lawsuit against the alleged mistress of her husband, a former six-term Republican Congressman from Mississippi.[68][71] The lawsuit alleges that Pickering restarted a relationship with Elizabeth Creekmore Byrd, his college sweetheart, while he was "a United States congressman prior to and while living in the well-known C Street Complex in Washington, D.C."[68][71]
[edit] International roots

Sir Vivian Gabriel, a British Air Commission attaché in Washington during World War II, established a branch of the Family (International Christian Leadership Association) in the United Kingdom.[72] Ernest Williams, a member of the directing staff of the British Admiralty and a member of the Archbishop of Canterbury’s Commission on Evangelism, served as its president in the 1960’s.[72] Williams worked closely with Harald Bredesen, a British intelligence operative who went on to personally mentor Rev. Pat Robertson in the United States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_%28Christian_political_organization%29#List_of_prominent_Family_members


Bob K
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118 posted 10-21-2009 11:39 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Hitler gets a lot of airplay for somebody the woman never mentioned.  Apparently, the right wing can't tell the difference between Mother Teresa and the late unlamented Dictator of Germany.  Mo, wait, it was between the Left wing guy and the right wing guy they can't tell apart.

     So they're confusing their own political ideology with that of Mao Zedong and they seem upset about it when Ms. Dunn never mentioned the nazis at all.    Nor, actually, did she recommend Catholicism, which I would suspect some folks might possibly be upset about.  But, of course, because she didn't mention it, it wasn't really all that much of a problem.  Of course, she didn't mention Hitler either, but the author of the National Review article, who is a frequent stand in for  Rush Limbaugh and who uses Mr. Limbaugh's rhetorical style in the article, feels entirely justified to bringing the subject up.

     Why not, it's irrelevant, and it can serve to smear somebody, can't it?

     It doesn't matter who says the truth, guys.

     I take that back.  Apparently, it matters to you, and you seem willing to go down to the wire on the subject for some entirely bizarre reason.

     No matter who says it, I may want to see the sources and the data, but if the observation is true, there you are.


quote:


Of course the sentence is true, no matter who says it.




     Thank you.

quote:


Is that enough for you to call him one of your favorite philosophers?




      Absolutely not.

      Nor did Ms. Dunn suggest that this was the basis for her affinity for the man's political philosophy.

     That was your assertion and your assertion alone.  Then you proceeded to smear her as though your assertion were the truth.  You offered no proof of your assertion.  In fact the comment quoted is not one of Mao's better known ones; not one that I at least have heard quoted before, though I don't pretend to know Mao's work well at all.

     Perhaps you would like us to throw away the golden rule because it shows up in Peanuts at some point, and that means that the Golden Rule and the study of ethics should be replaced by the study of comic books, as you so profoundly suggested about Mao's Political Philosophy after hearing a single quotation and getting it wrong on repetition.  Perhaps you'd like us to do the same with the Tao te Ching and the Torah and the New Testament as well, and make do with the comics Illustrated versions.

quote:

Bob said:
     "Mao was more interested in poetry and Political Philosophy and governance." (than was Hitler)

Mike replies:

     "Ah, yes, Mao the poetry lover and philosopher. The mass murdering of hundreds of thousands was just to fill time when no good poetry books could be found, I suppose. He died  of the same natural causes Capone died of."




     I probably didn't make myself clear.  Mao Zedong was not famous as a reader of poetry, Mike.  He had a national reputation as a poet before he became a revolutionary, as I understand it.  He has always had that reputation, and I wanted to see for myself what the quality of his poetry was.  I think that political poetry is almost impossible to write well.  It almost always has no staying power and is drivel.  The American protest Poetry of the Sixties has not held up well at all, in my opinion.  For the most part it's pretty much bombastic garbage with at least one exception, which is a poem that is only a protest poem in part — Galway Kinnell's The Book of Nightmares.  Other than that, I'd have to go back to Yeats.

     So I really want to check Mao out because I want to see the quality of what he's written.  Bertrand de Born, the Provencal poet, was a thoroughgoing jerk and nasty guy, but his poetry is occasionally good, at least in the translations that I've seen.  Jeffery Dahlmer was simply one very sick man.  I feel very sorry for his victims and on some level I feel sad for the torment that drove him.

     As to what killed Mao Zedong, I don't know, but I seriously doubt it was syphilis.  It was quite curable with antibiotics that were easily available by the time he took power, and even sulfa drugs were useful.  A high fever would cure it.  I'd be willing to consider the possibility, but it sounds more like a slander of convenience to me.  What are your sources on this one?

    
quote:


Hitler was a magnificent orator. One only has to look at videos of him giving his feiry speeches to hundreds of thousands of wildly cheering Germans. Should that make him one of my "favorite" orators?  




     Wile I was growing up, I had a babysitter who was quite literally Transylvanian and spoke eight languages (she said).  She lied a lot.  She did spend a lot of time in Germany during the thirties, and she was still enthralled with Hitler.  She used to talk to me how all the stories about him really couldn't be true and that he made the trains run on time, and what a warm and fascinating man he was and how right you felt when you listened to him.

     He was one of her favorite orators and always was until she died in about 1970.  She still hoped he was alive down there someplace in South America.  

     He got where he got on his Charisma.

     Mao had charisma, too, I hear.  But he also had a brain.
If you pretend Mao didn't have a brain and have interesting and useful ideas, how are you going to know what they are when something like them comes down the pike again?  At this point, if I'm to take the Republican rhetoric seriously, Republicans have lost the ability to distinguish Fascism from Communism.  On the basis of one idea they have thrown out an entire system of thinking they are unacquainted with, and they can only offer ad hominem excuses for why they have done so.

quote:


     It's interesting how MAO, Castro, Chavez and the like make it on the Democratic most-admired lists. Why is that, do you suppose?




     I think that folks have more mixed reactions than you credit them for, Mike.

     I don't like a lot of the results of Mao's government style, and I share some of your dislike for his draconian methods.  I'm not stupid or unobservant.  I can see lots of flaws with China and with Communism in general; if you believe otherwise, you haven't been looking or listening to me over the years and that would be a pity.

     I think Mao is important to read because he has important things to say.  I don't agree with all of them.  I read you, don't I?  I think you have important things to say as well, and you know that I disagree with you as well.

     The conditions that Mao faced were more extreme than the conditions you or I ever had to face, and his solutions were different than I would have come up with for my situation.  But then I wasn't facing a three to four thousand year old entrenched power structure dead set on maintaining things the way they'd always been, and Mao did.

     I think that's a start on a good basic answer.  I think you might try speculating what would have happened if Mao had lost and  either the Japanese had won or the Greens had won, and imagine what sort of situation would have emerged from that.  I don't think people allow themselves to speculate about those alternatives.  I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts at any rate.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven

[This message has been edited by Bob K (10-22-2009 03:15 AM).]

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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119 posted 10-21-2009 11:48 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

    The day I worked at C Street I ran into Doug Coe, who was tutoring Todd Tiahrt, a Republican congressman from Kansas. A friendly, plainspoken man with a bright, lazy smile, Coe has worked for the Family since 1959, soon after he graduated from college, and has led it since 1969.

    Tiahrt was a short shot glass of a man, two parts flawless hair and one part teeth. He wanted to know the best way “for the Christian to win the race with the Muslim.” The Muslim, he said, has too many babies, while Americans kill too many of theirs.

    Doug agreed this could be a problem. But he was more concerned that the focus on labels like “Christian” might get in the way of the congressman's prayers. Religion distracts people from Jesus, Doug said, and allows them to isolate Christ's will from their work in the world.

    “People separate it out,” he warned Tiahrt. “'Oh, okay, I got religion, that's private.' As if Jesus doesn't know anything about building highways, or Social Security. We gotta take Jesus out of the religious wrapping.”

    “All right, how do we do that?” Tiahrt asked.

    “A covenant,” Doug answered. The congressman half-smiled, as if caught between confessing his ignorance and pretending he knew what Doug was talking about. “Like the Mafia,” Doug clarified. “Look at the strength of their bonds.” He made a fist and held it before Tiahrt's face. Tiahrt nodded, squinting. “See, for them it's honor,” Doug said. “For us, it's Jesus.”

    Coe listed other men who had changed the world through the strength of the covenants they had forged with their “brothers”: “Look at Hitler,” he said. “Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Bin Laden.” The Family, of course, possessed a weapon those leaders lacked: the “total Jesus” of a brotherhood in Christ.

    “That's what you get with a covenant,” said Coe. “Jesus plus nothing.”
http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-Heart-American/dp/0060559799


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfaiLki3WEg&feature=player_embedded
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


120 posted 10-22-2009 11:32 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

.

“But then I wasn't facing a three to four thousand year old entrenched power structure dead set on maintaining things the way they'd always been, and Mao did.”

Which seems a way of rationalizing mass murder.. .

But that may be a sign of my fault:

“To read too many books is harmful. “

Mao Zedong


.
Ron
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since 05-19-99
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121 posted 10-22-2009 11:53 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I think Mao is important to read because he has important things to say. I don't agree with all of them.

Doesn't anyone else see the irony in trying to defend Mao in a thread about Limbaugh and Beck?  

Being right occasionally isn't enough to gain my trust. Even being right a lot won't excuse a couple of really horrible wrongs. The scale doesn't work that way, not for me.

I'm sure Mao and Limbaugh have both been right about a couple of things. Life, however, is too short to invest my time finding and verifying those rare nuggets of worth. I, for one, can spend my time more fruitfully.

Besides, I find that ignoring certain people carries fewer side effects than blood pressure medication.  
Balladeer
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122 posted 10-22-2009 12:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Besides, I find that ignoring certain people carries fewer side effects than blood pressure medication.

True enough, Ron. Maybe someone should pass along that little nugget of wisdom to Obama.
Balladeer
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123 posted 10-22-2009 12:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

From a  speech by Ron Bloom, manufacturing czar..

We kind of agree with Mao that political "power comes largely from the barrel of a gun."


Seems quoting Mao is quite popular among democrats. Perhaps they should change their name to demaocrats!
Ron
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124 posted 10-22-2009 01:22 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I'm curious, Mike. Is quoting Mao worse than quoting someone quoting Mao?

FWIW, that Maotation is one with which I would have to agree. Sadly and reluctantly, but nonetheless. What it leaves unsaid is that there is always going to be someone, somewhere, some time, with a bigger gun.


 
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