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Passions in Poetry

Random Thoughts on Limbaugh and Glenn Beck

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Bob K
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75 posted 10-18-2009 09:22 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Can't quarrel with the comparisons, Mike?  That's Okay.

     Now maybe we can talk about the actual point, which was to talk about jobless recoveries in the first Bush administration and here, in the Obama administration.  

     The idea is to see what the differences are and what the similarities are.  If Obama is doing a bad job about this, I want to know as badly as you do or any of your other friends.  I simply don't want to get tangled up in the extraneous name calling stuff.  I believe you may have a point, but I'd like it laid out if it can be done in a reasonable fashion, one that acknowledges that this sort of jobless recovery happens no matter which party is in charge from time to time, it may be bad, it may be okay, but lets look at the thing.

     It shouldn't have been okay when Bush Senior had one and, as I said, I think it was probably a good thing then, and probably laid a lot of the groundwork for the prosperity over the next eight years and not okay when Obama has one unless we can figure out what the actual difference is.  It would be nice for us to be pretty much on the same page and actually thinking about the business instead of taking entrenched Republican and Democratic party positions and sniping at each other without thinking what were saying first.

     So, what actually is going on with the jobless recovery stuff?  How's it the same and how's it different from the Bush Senior Jobless recovery in the early '90's?
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76 posted 10-18-2009 09:29 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Huan Yi,

           Trying to defend the Human rights record of Mao would be a job that I wouldn't even try to take on.  If some fool in the white house actually tried, then they're out of their cotton picking mind.  I wouldn't try to defend that either.

     If I weren't so disgusted at the accusation, I'd try looking at your references, but the very accusation is so disheartening that I'd need to wait to even fact check it.  Not with you.  The accusation.  Give me a day or two to get my nausea in control before I check this out.  

     Are your really serious?  Did someone in the white house actually support the human rights of Mao, or am I simply misreading you, please?

     Please?

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
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77 posted 10-18-2009 09:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Which begs one to ask the question that, if no one needs to, why do they?
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78 posted 10-18-2009 09:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Can't quarrel with the comparisons, Mike?

No, Bob, I can't quarrel with the ridiculousness of the comparisons. They are only valid in the World According to Bob, not in reality.

Hey, I found out that John Dillinger was right-handed. So is  Bush. Obama, on the other hand is left-handed which means there is a valid comparison between Dillinger and Bush but none between John and Obama...how about that?
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79 posted 10-18-2009 09:38 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Beg Pardon, Denise, but having anybody take over an industry is the Capitalist way, isn't it?  At what point did capitalists start checking the politics of the money they accepted?  We've been accepting communist money for years.  Who do you think we've been selling the U.S. debt to, Denise?  Do you think we check their RNC membership before they fork over their dough?

     I would suggest to you that you don't have a very clear idea of what Capitalism actually is if you think we don't let communists buy and sell industries here.  We've been selling them industries in the United States since the twenties.  Perhaps you've never heard the Marxist slogan, "The Capitalists will sell you the rope you use to hang them."  What do you think the notions of "Free Trade" implies, Denise?

     You have the notion of Capitalism confused with something else, perhaps some sort of nationalism, I suspect.  
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80 posted 10-18-2009 09:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

How's it the same and how's it different from the Bush Senior Jobless recovery in the early '90's?

I don't know, Bob. How about you taking a look at it and let me know the similarities and differences you see?
Denise
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81 posted 10-19-2009 10:50 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Marxist slogan: "The Capitalists will sell you the rope you use to hang them."

That's exactly why I don't trust the Marxists, Bob. Their aim is to destroy capitalism, as the above slogan so clearly states, and along with it our way of life.
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82 posted 10-19-2009 11:29 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Our way of life includes selling rope, Denise; and selling national debt to the chinese.  That is part of Capitalism.  Are you suggesting that you can tell folks to stop.  Armand Hammer, for example, at Occidental Petroleum, sold oil and the like to Stalin for years, even during the cold war.  You can't have missed how large a market they proved to be for our wheat?  Did you think it was only Democrats that sold to the Communists?  Think again.

     You may hate the Communists, but loads of fairly large American and Western companies in general didn't.  Because that's Capitalism.

     You're blaming the Communists for Capitalism.  That's sort of backwards.  
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83 posted 10-19-2009 11:33 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

          Begging the question how?  I'm not sure I understand the comment.  Could you clarify it for me, please?

     I may agree, I may not, I simply don't understand at this point.

Yours, Bob Kaven
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84 posted 10-19-2009 01:18 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, that referred to LR's response in post #73.
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85 posted 10-19-2009 02:02 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Hate is a strong word, Bob. I disagree with them, I don't hate them.

Capitalists should be wise enough to sell only enough rope to them so that it isn't used against them.

Communism has never brought personal liberty to people. It only brings ever increasing government control and eventual tyranny.
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86 posted 10-19-2009 06:22 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Denise,

           Your comment about tyranny is true about any totalitarian government, I think, Denise, of the Left or of the Right.  The problem to my mind is the totalitarian nature of it, and the movement away from electoral politics, isn't it?  A great deal of Europe is under Left leaning governments that do fairly well with personal freedoms and with setting their own policy.  They have and cherish their own court systems and they elect their own governments freely.  Sometimes the governments are more Left-leaning, sometimes for right leaning, but they almost always have very solid social protections.

  I'm not advocating communist governments.  I am saying that people have a right to elect the governments they wish to have, and if we actually believe in the freedom we say we believe in, we have the obligation to allow, no, encourage them to do so.  This has not always been the case.

Yours, Bob Kaven
Bob K
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87 posted 10-19-2009 06:41 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike   You mean about the person who should not be named by me being a racist?

     It's better if I don't get into that with you, I think, at least in depth.  I believe he likes to bait Liberals by playing around the edges of the subject.  Beyond that,  I think I don't enjoy the tactic and it doesn't help keep the conversation respectful.

     I don't know if you remember Eric Berne's Bestseller of many year back, Games People Play?  There was one Berne called, "Let's you and Him fight" that often gets played out in political discussions, left and right, and I find it amazing how well Berne got the schematics of the thing mapped out so long ago.  You hear left wing talk shows use it as well, on occasion.

     You may not have the time to check it out, but it's a fun comparison, seeing how predictable all of can be at times.

Yours, Bob Kaven
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88 posted 10-19-2009 06:43 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Bob,

Read the article.

Here's a video of the incident:


http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?m aven_referralObject=10812408&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/


.
Bob K
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89 posted 10-19-2009 07:00 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Next, if you look at most postings here and there over the past few days, you'll see that I actually have offered some similarities between the Jobless recovery of the early 90's and this, with most of my emphasis being of giving credit to Bush Senior for what I thought was a fairly gutsy stand on his part.  You may for one reason or another not have realized that I was doing so.  I also suggested that Obama was doing something of the same sort.

     Your focus originally was on your feeling that I was taking a swipe at two Republican Presidents and offering you a choice of which one to blame.  That was not the case.  Republicans themselves have their own private feelings, as I understand it, about the business.  That is again, as I understand it that Reagan was right on, and that Bush faltered and lost the election as a result.  

     I think that whatever caused the recession Reagan is my thought; I understand you disagree Bush was actually sort of heroic in doing what he needed to do to pull the country out.  I think Clinton helped build on that recovery later, but that if Bush hadn't raised taxes at that point, the recession would have been much prolonged.  He ended up putting money back into the economy by doing so,  and increased spending a bit as well, a needed stimulus.

     It also turned his own party against him and cost him the election.

     I think it may explain why he and Clinton had the basis for a friendship later on.

     Anyway, you suggested that I try taking a shot at the comparison.  I think that you were thinking that I was trying to lay a trap for you of some sort or something.  Not my intention.  I hope I offered at least the beginnings of an example of what I was talking about.

     Is that Okay?

Sincerely, Bob Kaven


Thank you, Huan Yi.  Fox and National Review?

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90 posted 10-19-2009 07:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, My mistake....it referred to #74, the one as I said entered by LR.
Bob K
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91 posted 10-19-2009 07:16 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Thanks Mike, I caught the slip and made the connection anyway.  The courtesy is much appreciated anyway.
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92 posted 10-19-2009 07:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


I've always found it interesting, Bob, that Bush senior was raked over the coals for his "read my lips" comment by Democrats, who love to raise taxes...shows quite a bit of Hypocracy there, in my view but, then again, all's fair in love and politics, I suppose.

Would you like to see the tax differences between Bush senior and Clinton? Check them out..they are interesting, on both sides.
http://www.cato.org/research/fiscal_policy/2002/factsfigs.html
Bob K
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93 posted 10-19-2009 08:24 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Huan Yi,

          I read the article and I saw the video.

     As for Rush Limbaugh owning an NFL team, I simply don't know.  In baseball, I think there's supposed to be some sort of morals clause for ownership, and I believe one or two owners had to see because of that.  Am I wrong there?  I don't know if the NFL is the same way or not.  Certainly Rush himself would be upset about an addict running one of the shining bastions of moral values in our great land.  Even one who had manage to escape the punishment he had so justly deserved.

     Oh, I can just hear the great round plummy notes  a-flowing out of that golden microphone now, a mighty river of righteousness.  Richly deserved or not, that is pretty much how Rush Limbaugh would have presented the situation had there been a Liberal on the other end of it, as I suspect you know.  Mr. Steyn's not a particularly great guy to complain, because in addition to his gig at The National Review, he is a frequent substitute for Mr. Limbaugh, and his rhetoric is no improvement over Mr. Limbaugh's or anybody who is as nasty on the Left.  In this particular article, he appears to function as Mr. Limbaugh's human sock puppet.

     I was very upset about the allegations you made about the White House spokesperson.  Having reviewed the article and the tape, I see that I need not have worried myself.  The praise of Mao that I had read into the situation was not there in the least, nor was any comment about his human rights, nor was, in fact, any approval of his for of government, simply that he was an effective leader.  Hate him as much as you wish, to suggest him to be ineffective would likely be a mistake.

     Considering that he was being used to illustrate the same point that Mother Teresa was being used to illustrate, and that the point was one worth paying attention to does not suggest that Mao was wrong, or that the point was ill chosen.  The fact that the point might be illustrated from two such widely disparate points of view, both reaching the same conclusion, would actually contribute to the usefulness.

     The fact that Mr, Steyn might use hyperbole to ridicule the point speaks of Mr. Steyn's apparent preference for avoiding rational discussion when he can use humiliation and innuendo in an attempt to discredit the person rather than the logic instead.  He doesn't quarrel with the truth of the proposition.  He strives to befoul the messenger instead.

     Is Mao a guy that modern Americans should seek to model their human rights or civil liberties policies upon?  Do you even have to think about that?

     Was Mao a deep and thoughtful thinker about the ways of power and the uses and abuses of authority.  Did he understand motivation as well as any man in this century?
Did he earn the right to have his thoughts considered on these subjects?

     Well, yeah.  You don't have to love a guy to understand that what he has to say might be worth listening to, even if you have to work pretty hard to get it.

     Bluster all you will about what a wretched guy the man was.  He was a wretched guy.  You don't read him to find out how to be a wretched guy and kill 30 million people. He's not off the hook for them, by the way; he will never be.  If there's an inferno, I suspect we have a good idea where to forward his mail.  That doesn't mean he doesn't have smart things to say, too; and that we're at a disadvantage if other people know what they are and we're simply shrugging our shoulders and saying, sorry, he's too evil for me to understand him.  And maybe too practical as well.

     How would you know, if you won't read him and discuss the ideas?

Yours, Bob Kaven

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94 posted 10-19-2009 09:13 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Certainly Rush himself would be upset about an addict running one of the shining bastions of moral values in our great land.

You're the best, Bob. Chubby Checker MUST have been thinking of you when he invented the twist. I know that Rush is fair game for anything you want to throw at him but perhaps you could try just a tiny bit of human understanding? I personally would feel sympathy for anyone in so much pain that they became dependant on the pain pills that were medically perscribed for them. It wouldn't matter to me what their political party was. Obviously you don't feel that compassion toward your fellow man, at least if he happens to be a conservative that doesn't like your president. Hopefully you will never be placed in that position one day.

one of the shining bastions of moral values in our great land. Professional sports are the shining bastions of our land? You mean like MIchael Vick or O.J. or all of the ones who really ARE addicts? Perhaps you  mean owners like Marge  Schott on the baseball side or the not-so-lilly-white George Steinbrenner? Shining bastions??? Surely you jest...
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95 posted 10-19-2009 09:17 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Bob, Dunn said that Mao was one of her favorite philosophers. Doesn't that seem like she admires his philosophy, perhaps beyond his determination to set and realize his goals? What in the world was this woman thinking giving such a speach to high school kids? Of all the people in the world that one could choose to admire and praise, she had to pick Mao?  

Strange, isn't it, that none of the MSM reported on this? I guess the new White House war on Fox gave them the message not to report anything that Fox reports (not that they did much anyway)...or else the White House will be at war with them next. If it weren't for the internet Fox would be the only place you could actually hear about these things. Oh, wait, maybe that's why the administration wants   unprecendented control of the internet as well.
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96 posted 10-20-2009 01:13 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Actually, I do feel sympathy of that sort.  I was satirizing Mr. Limbaugh's views on the evils of drugs, drug dealers and drug users that he was absolutely shameless about trotting out and trumpeting during the hours I spent driving back and forth between home and the Brockton VA where I was doing my Social Work internship at the time.

     It was only after Mr. Limbaugh's arrest and conviction and sentencing that he shut up on the subject.  If he ever ever said he'd been wrong in his relentless attacks or lack of empathy on the subject, I must have been someplace else when he said it.  So no, I have plenty of empathy on the subject, I worked with alcoholics and addicts for many years as an outpatient drug and alcohol psychotherapist, though my speciality was people who had those problems plus additional more complicated psychological issues as well.  And I have a fairly in depth understanding of how difficult the problem is.  Unlike Mr. Limbaugh, who advocated draconian punishments for them until he himself was found out, at which point, when he could have done some good by suggesting a more sympathetic stance for fellow addicts, he simply kept him mouth shut.

     And yes, hopefully I too will never be placed in that position one day.

     And no, I don't think sports are one of the shining beacons of much of anything but cash here.  I agree with each and every one of your examples.  That doesn't mean that Rush Limbaugh couldn't or wouldn't work himself up on air about it or something like it if he felt he had something to gain.  Perhaps he feels that he should be able to exercise his freedom of speech without arousing feelings in the people he criticizes?  His comments about black civil Rights leaders and the President and Reverend Wright and ACORN and his use of characterizations of blacks gathered from sending actors pretending to be prostitutes and pimps into ACORN offices to try to get the worst of black stereotypes broadcast over the airwaves does have consequences.

     Do you believe that he could cooperate with these things without getting tagged as racist?  Why would you believe such a naive thing?  And why would you believe there would be no reaction?

     There's no twister involved.  It's pretty much simple physics.  Action and reaction.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
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97 posted 10-20-2009 01:54 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Denise,

          Here's where you begin:

quote:

Bob, Dunn said that Mao was one of her favorite philosophers.



     Sadly, that's where we seem to part ways.  I reviewed the tape.  I believe that's clearly what you heard, of course, but because that's what you heard you may have missed a lot of the significance of what she was saying.

     What she actually said was that Mao was one of her two favorite Political Philosophers.  And that the other one was Mother Teresa.  

     The only thing that seemed to have stuck for you was the Mao Zedong part.  Because of that you missed that she spent roughly the same amount of time talking about Mother Teresa, and that the two messages were roughly equivalent.  The demonic and the saintly messages were the same.

     Your conclusion is that because she mentioned Mao, that

quote:

Doesn't that seem like she admires his philosophy, perhaps beyond his determination to set and realize his goals?



to which the appropriate answer is, no, not unless you would care to include the same statement about Mother Teresa.   The same textual evidence exists to support the same case about her, no more, no less.  So, isn't it just as likely that  "she admires h[er] philosophy, perhaps beyond h[er] determination to set and realize h[er] goals?"  (contents inside the brackets here is mine.)

     You ask, "What in the world was this woman thinking giving such a speach (sic) to high school kids? "  I think she was giving them a well thought out speech about the need to do your own thinking instead of taking the pre-digested thoughts of others at face value and being hemmed in by them.  And that she was doing it in  a way that would, if they were bright enough, be just shocking enough to catch their attention.  And that, if you think about it, she was saying that Mother Teresa was just as powerful a thinker as Mao Zedong, even though her way was much softer.  That in itself provides much to think about, in terms of the impact of saving lives and wasting them, doesn't it?  And it's a point that could not be made by excluding either Mother Teresa or Mao Zedong from her speech.

     Both had to appear together for the comparison actually to work.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven

    
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98 posted 10-20-2009 07:01 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Do you believe that he could cooperate with these things without getting tagged as racist?

No, I don't think he could wake up in the morning without being called a racist by leftists. After all, he's gone after Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpeton, Maxine Waters, Charlie Rangel, Reverend "damn America" Wright, thinks Obama is leading the country down  the road to ruin.....and they are all black! Since they are all fine, upstanding citizens it MUST be racial, right??!! He should know better. He should have gotten some advice from Jimmy the Greek....
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99 posted 10-20-2009 11:46 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Not everybody sees this as the startling coincidence that you do, Mike.
 
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