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Norwegian Kool-Aid?

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Bob K
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75 posted 10-13-2009 10:08 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Put down that loaded term, Mike.  Place it carefully on the floor, and slowly back away.  Don't make any sudden moves....
rwood
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76 posted 10-14-2009 08:18 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Brad~

Not many know of George Washington Carver, either.

He saved the south from becoming really dirt poor. Jimmy Carter has much to thank him for   If the plains farmers had heeded his research, the Dust Bowl might have been avoided.

He promoted racial harmony and had no interest in politics, other than that which promoted the benefits to all in his discoveries.

My point is: Carver never focused on his color so much that the worldview of him impaired his vision.

Obama has. And it's a cheap shot to his own standing, because he is in the utmost position to promote racial harmony with many fine fine fellows who have done more in their sleep than he has as examples. The moment he accepts the worldview of a race based achievement, he loses power as a human being, with dirt in his eye, imo, and he re-empowers the belief that America has so much to apologize for, the America he stands for...or against.

I'm still deciding.

but red yellow black or white, sight is precious. Aye.

Brad
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77 posted 10-14-2009 09:50 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I thought Carver was fairly well known but that may just be me.

But if you are arguing against a race based world view, why the comparison?

At any rate, I think you're missing my point.

My point is not that he should claim special status because he's black, it is that he has special status because he's black, and before Mike jumps in in order to miss the point even more , he has special status because he is the first black president in a country that is internationally perceived both as a white country and as country with a particularly violent history of racism.

All countries are racist.

Or if that is too general a use of that term, the people of the world all tend to support their own ethnic group and demean others.  

They also have hierarchies when dealing with different ethnic groups (N.E Asians, for example, think that whites are superior to say Indians and S.E. Asians).

As long as you recognize that, you can work within it.  If you don't, you will be continually disappointed by just about everybody on the planet.

Or you can ignore it. But that also means you should ignore the Peace Prize as well.

The only significant leader in modern history with a similar symbolic value (and therefore power) would be Mikail Gorbachev.

Unfortunately, that doesn't always translate into domestic popularity.

Look what happened to Gorby.
rwood
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78 posted 10-14-2009 02:17 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

quote:
But if you are arguing against a race based world view, why the comparison?


Because, as the world now knows, and I’ve stated it before, the White House is no longer white, and everyone needs to get over it, including Obama. And as you somewhat state, race can be an issue in many instances, but it doesn’t have to be THE issue.


quote:
he has special status because he is the first black president in a country that is internationally perceived both as a white country and as country with a particularly violent history of racism.


I don’t feel that Obama is all that special as the first black president, because he isn’t the first black man that should have been president. Imo.

But if a female were Prez?  Hmmm…the odds are more against that degree of special than Obama’s.

And wait. Do you mean we’re not perceived as “The Melting Pot,” anymore??? I mean we do have to press #1 for English and we do have to check off the stupid little ethnicity boxes on so many entry/applications/legal forms, and Spanish is now mandatory in TN schools, yada yada, so is it just the White House that  internationally projects us all White?? Not any more. Yall’ve been whitewashed.

I agree with you about our history of racial violence. In fact, we’ve got A history of all kinds of horrible violence that began well before any African stepped foot upon our soil. But we have NO history when compared to other long inhabited continents. So maybe other countries aren’t only racist, as quoted below, but hypocritical and assuming, as well.

And I understand your view:

quote:
All countries are racist.

Or if that is too general a use of that term, the people of the world all tend to support their own ethnic group and demean others.
  

I’ve experienced this, but I don’t agree with it nor promote it.

I’m much more inspired and wow’d by the Man who invented the unimaginable from peanuts than I am the Man who invented Windows. I think I’d feel this way no matter what color I was. It’s who I am on the inside. Perhaps, if Carver were alive, they’d speak to each other on a level that was very admirable of the other for lending each other a new way to look at the world.

As far as symbolic value? Hey! What about Margaret (Iron Lady) Thatcher??? Did she take a sledge hammer to the glass ceiling for all? Nope. Not yet, at least not here….in America. However, I pray it remains since Obama may shoe-in Hillary for the 2012 ticket. Or maybe even Sarah Palin!!!


whoopee!!
threadbear
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79 posted 10-14-2009 02:21 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

err....

excuse me for a second:  

Obama is not a black man

He is a white man.  
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
See how dumb that sounds.

He is half/half.  His skin color is more white than black.  This racial bruhaha is boring to me because the question is moot.  Mom was white and father was black.  He represents the best America has to offer in so far as diversity in races.   He is neither black nor white:  He's both.

I am struck by the ironies, especially during Census time as to what to call each race, especially the mixed ones.  What is confusing is that Obama can accurately call himself
an African-American since his father was Kenyan, but unless he is 51% black, he really is something else.
This just underscores the need in America to have a third classification of race: Mixed.  Right now the government forces people to say they are either black white or Hispanic, and actually Hispanic is not a race.  It is a nationality or culture, if you will.    See how blurry this whole mess is?  I think most people KNOW that Obama is mixed, but to continually call him a Black Man just to get agendas accomplished or to play the race card against detractors is truly disingenious.
Brad
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80 posted 10-14-2009 05:36 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
And as you somewhat state, race can be an issue in many instances, but it doesn’t have to be THE issue.


Well said.

quote:
I don’t feel that Obama is all that special as the first black president, because he isn’t the first black man that should have been president. Imo.


No comment.  Not talking about 'should's.

quote:
Do you mean we’re not perceived as “The Melting Pot,” anymore???


Now that's funny.

quote:
I’ve experienced this, but I don’t agree with it nor promote it.


Yeah, but if you understand it, you can see why Obama might be special in other people's opinions.

quote:
But if a female were Prez?  Hmmm…the odds are more against that degree of special than Obama’s.


Damn, I was hoping to avoid this one.

I do think we can universalize about perceptions of race.

I do think we universalize about that perception and its relationship to nations and governments.

I don't see the same thing with sex or gender.

Here's a short list of women leaders:

Women_in_ Power

Magaret Thatcher is number three.


Ringo
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81 posted 10-14-2009 08:32 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

threadbare- be REALLY careful about throwing out the fact that President Obama is actually half white... I did it and was publically lynched by every single liberal on the Blue Pages, and by many of the conservatives.
It seems that no one is allowed to be half- ANYTHING. If your mother is Japanese, and your father is an American serviceman, then you are Japanese (except, of course, to the Japanese); if your mother is white, and your father is, say... oh, I don't know... Kenyan, then you are BLACK 9or African-American, or whatever phrase people wish to use at the time); if your mother is white, and your father is Cuban, then you are Hispanic. End of story... just ask those who are more than willing to denounce racial profiling at the top of their lungs, unless it helps them in some substancial way.

Oh, yeah... didn't someone call President Clinton the first black president? Skin color notwithstanding?

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "WHAT A RIDE

Brad
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82 posted 10-14-2009 09:50 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

TB and Ringo,

Phenotypes, not genotypes.

The whole idea of race falls apart at the genetic level (they're called genetic cluster groups and the genetic variation within each group is always larger than the genetic variation between groups).

But nobody cares.

Just because an idea is incoherent doesn't mean that people won't act and react to it.

Um, that aside, what follows from what you're talking about?
threadbear
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83 posted 10-15-2009 12:58 AM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

To sum it up:
That the racial is overblown, simply because Obama is perceived by many to be neither black nor white, and they don't harbor much prejudice toward him the same way they might if he had both black parents.

The Left-left throws down the race card FOR Obama!   They are speaking for him, even when he says himself that the alleged comments (like Joe Wilson's YOU LIE) were not racial.  These empty shell charges harmlessly bounce off conservatives when Obama says the statements are NOT racial.  So again, I say, Obama is not black enough for the Right...either that, or the Left sees him as a man first,
and a black man second.

Either way, I'd like to take the 'black' out of the equation and just refer to him as a man.  I'm sick of townhall people being called racist simply because they disagree with him.  I've yet to hear ONE person tell me their opinion that they hate Obama because he is black.  It's a trumped up charge, empty, and vacuuous.
Bob K
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84 posted 10-15-2009 03:41 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


  


Dear Threadbear,

           Thank you for putting my mind at rest about that.  Not.

     The President looks black to me.  He looks black to loads of his constituents.  People make different meaning out of that, depending on who you are.  Thank you for telling me that you don't see any major racism problem that the President has to deal with in this country, and that it has little to do with his style of doing so.  

     I still have difficulty dealing with the racism I grew up with in Ohio as a kid, and I'm a Liberal and support of a lot of the man's policies.  I'm glad to hear that people who don't support him have no problem with race at all.

     My problem is that I don't believe your analysis.  I think that they don't understand the sociology and anthropology around the subject, especially around exogamy, and I think they don't understand the social psychology.  My feeling is that racism is something that you can be aware of and that you can consciously attempt to work around, but it is not something that in most cultures doesn't exist.  In fact, I'd be pleased if you could give me a single example of a culture where it doesn't.

     Lack of awareness and denial doesn't make it go away.  The President's willingness to blame various racist comments on other things is a useful way to approach the subject, because it isn't him that's chucking the term around.  That doesn't mean that racism isn't real.  Trying to link The President with being a Muslim terrorist made during the election by folks on the right were only one example of the use of this tactic.  The word "Black" wasn't attached to "muslim" in my recollection explicitly.  The implication was fairly clearly there.  And on and on.

     I doubt you, threadbear, are as inherently prejudiced as I am, but you ought to know that there is considerable racial tension going on in the country today.  And religious tension as well.  It is unpleasant and unnecessary. It obscures strategic thinking and intelligence gathering.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
threadbear
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85 posted 10-15-2009 04:17 AM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

YOU SAID:  Thank you for telling me that you don't see any major racism problem that the President has to deal with in this country...  

Carefull, Bob....i never said nor meant the words you just stuffed in my mouth.

Hurling racial cards at their political opponents is what many Democrats do.  It's their most often-pulled card from the deck, and I'm sick of it.  The waters are so muddy anymore on what is and what isn't racism, that people have given up trying to have a discourse.  Coupled with the fact that if they express their personal viewpoint they will get race-card slapped.  It's impossible these days to even have an intelligent discussion about race due to the overplaying of the racial charge.

Everyone is either prejudiced or racist in some way.  I've yet to meet a person that didn't have a preconceived notion about Muslims, the French, red-haired people, whatever, but there is always at least one group of people that makes a person 'a little bit jumpy.'  It's our maturity as adults that keep 99% of our feelings in check and gentlemanly.  I can live with that percentage.  It's unreasonable to expect people who never grew up with Muslims, red-hairs, or French to understand them.  That is where much of true racism is born: out of geographical isolation from exposure to another group.

Racism is within our culture, that's certain.  The real question, the crux of the biscuit, is whether it affects our quality of life in a major way.  There is NO way to eliminate all racism, and no race in the world that has done it.  I don't see race riots anymore....I don't see whites beating up blacks all over the country, I don't see the N* word plastered everywhere like it was in pre-'69 days.  

What does that mean?  It means that racism in America is under control, for the most part.  Can it be improved upon? Definitely.  But racism is not even in the top 25 problems that people say are Most Important problems in America.  You couldn't say that in 1930, 40, 50, 60 or even 1970.

If the Dem's have a REAL case of Racism, don't just throw the card out: show concrete proof of the charge, or don't lay down that card.  

There hasn't been a real major racial news issue in this country in many a year (if so, name one...I'm listening.)
rwood
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86 posted 10-15-2009 09:10 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

quote:
I do think we can universalize about perceptions of race.

I do think we universalize about that perception and its relationship to nations and governments.

I don't see the same thing with sex or gender.

I agree with your point, but need to add:  Race can be universally benign; but I think Fear is what causes malignancy.

And I agree it’s not the same thing when gender enters the equation. It’s the perception of power.

I don’t bite about the female thing as Prez, because there hasn’t been one in the queue that I’d vote for, yet, but when one arrives and she’s got the proper creds, I hope people, in general, will focus on those creds and not just her personal appearance and choice of wardrobe.

I mentioned Thatcher because she’s really the first female in power that wasn’t born into a royal or politically influential family, unless I’ve missed someone prior to her post. If so, please, let’s hear it for those girls!!

quote:
I doubt you, threadbear, are as inherently prejudiced as I am, but you ought to know that there is considerable racial tension going on in the country today.  And religious tension as well.  It is unpleasant and unnecessary. It obscures strategic thinking and intelligence gathering.


Actually, stirring up fear based upon race is a very strategic and intelligent leverage tactic, which works, The same way fire and brimstone might fill the church pews in religion. I agree it’s unpleasant, but for people who NEED “The Village,” it’s necessary. They feel safe there for whatever personal reasons. But, if people venture out of the village and embraces whatever’s out there, they’re not always out of control. They’re just out of the village. I’m sure that will make sense to some and absolutely no sense at all to others.

I’m leaning toward threadbear’s assessment:

quote:
Everyone is either prejudiced or racist in some way.  I've yet to meet a person that didn't have a preconceived notion about Muslims, the French, red-haired people, whatever, but there is always at least one group of people that makes a person 'a little bit jumpy.'  It's our maturity as adults that keep 99% of our feelings in check and gentlemanly.  I can live with that percentage.  It's unreasonable to expect people who never grew up with Muslims, red-hairs, or French to understand them.  That is where much of true racism is born: out of geographical isolation from exposure to another group.


Or such isolation/withdrawal/detachment, etc…is simply a personal choice. It helps that I take my notions straight to the source, if possible and within reason (not the likes of Hannibal Lecter. Someone at that level of villain deserves someone more qualified for an interview. Ha.)

If I want to know something about Muslims or the French?  I make a point to talk to them. Because I’m a redhead!!! LOL. And I’d like for the Muslims or French to talk to me and get the facts if they have any preconceived notions about “Red-haired” people, for example. They may be delightfully surprised as I often am when opening up to someone who’s different from me.

This tends to soothe many tensions, so I don’t deny the existence of racial issues. I just don’t allow such issues to control my chances and choices in life with other human beings. If I fail to make friends with a cheerleader due to some incompatibility, I’m not going to take issue with her whole squad and the team she cheers for, even if they did gang up on me and kick me off the field.

Anyway, President Obama is fully aware of his leverage. I just pray that he uses that leverage symbolic of the Peace he was highly awarded for. Or he can lean forward on the outdated notion of the oppression of the black man. What higher office can he reach, now???

And yes, the race card is so old now that many black persons are calling it "Racial Buffoonery."
Balladeer
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87 posted 10-15-2009 09:22 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The ones basically touting it are the ones making a profit from it, like Jesse Jackson, Sharpeton, and the like. They do a disservice to those who actually are victims of it.


A housewife was watching her son playing in the yard with another little boy. When he came in she called him into the kitchen..

"Was that boy black?",she asked her son,
Who was only three.
"Gee, I don't know", the boy replied.
"Next time I'll look and see."
Essorant
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88 posted 10-15-2009 10:42 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Maybe Santa Clause will win it next year.  
Brad
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89 posted 10-15-2009 10:49 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Race can be universally benign; but I think Fear is what causes malignancy.


Oh, you're good. Very good.
Bob K
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90 posted 10-15-2009 07:03 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Threadbear,

          Just some basic stuff:


http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/GR2688.aspx

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2004/openpage.htm

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=255

http://mediamatters.org/research/200406180005

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/pmc/articles/PMC1113412/

     The last article has to do with health care.  It's from one of the major British Medical journals and it talks about how racism affects the distribution of health care.  It talks about the effect it has in this country, and the effect the author is afraid it may have over there as well.

     I believe that would fit as a single issue that racism affects in a large way that is in the news right now.  That is what you asked for, isn't it?  The other references are a scattershot of books and references that come to bear on the subject in various ways.  One of the is a reference to Bill O'Reilly during one of his medium offensive moments making comments about the Iraqis, another is to what appears to be An Encyclopedia of American Racism, past and present, which should provide some interesting data if I can get my hands on it — or if you can, for that matter.

Take care, and it's good to have you back in the discussion.  Yours,  Bob Kaven
 
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