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Passions in Poetry

Norwegian Kool-Aid?

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Balladeer
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50 posted 10-11-2009 07:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Apparently we've been lying hypocrites for the last sixty or so years when we condemned these other people;

Only a democrat could make that statement, Bob. According to your words, apparently we have been no better than Hitler, North Koreans, the Viet Cong and the Chinese. I repeat, only a democrat could make such a despicable statement.

Thank you for sharing the fact that we are now France's favorite country. You have no idea how much that means to me. Perhaps one day we can be like them, if we are lucky and work hard.


I see your latest entry. No, Bob, I hadn't responded to you comment up until now. I actually have a life outside of this computer at times and, if time passes that I don't respond promptly, I may actually be involved in that life. Don't hold it against me, please....
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51 posted 10-11-2009 09:35 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Regardless of what Obama succeeds at or fails at in the future,  I think he has already succeeded by far at showing better judgement than those judging him.   It is not he that treats himself as a dictator here or awards himself the Noble Peace Award there.   It is the people exaggerating him, from one extreme to another.
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52 posted 10-11-2009 09:44 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Exactly, essorant.
Bob K
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53 posted 10-12-2009 01:34 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

          If we justify the same behavior with the same excuses, Mike, and suggest that we are above having to act according to a civilized standard for some sort of specialized reason, Please tell me how only a Democrat could make such a statement.  There were plenty of Republicans who worked in the war crimes tribunals and issued statements about the behavior of the Nazis and the Japanese.  If you haven't seen any world war one recruiting posters, perhaps you should take a look.  It doesn't take a Democrat to wish to defend the rights of others or to defend others against atrocities.  If you tell me that our soldiers signed up to commit atrocities, I will roundly disagree with you.  I would doubt even somebody as Partisan as you would insist on that.  I have been at pains to try to be kind to the Republicans here.  I have even said that the Republicans could have gotten the same Nobel Peace prize as President Obama if they had chosen to run perfectly respectable Republican candidates.  I even named the candidates.

     Once again I say that this isn't a problem between Democrats and Republicans. This is a problem between people who think it's okay to torture people and people who think it isn't.  This is a problem between people who look for ways to allow them to torture people under flimsy legal excuses and people who don't.  I don't think that all the JAG people who set up a fuss about what the administration was doing or the FBI people who did the same were Liberals or Democrats do you?  You don't have to be a Democrat or a Liberal to have your stomach turn over at6 the thought of water-boarding somebody, or of allowing someone to be tortured to death when they are under the protection of your custody.

     So yeah, we can mean one thing or we can mean the other or we can do a large amount of very rational and absolutely clear and totally convincing explanation that will make everybody instantly understand why we aren't hypocrites.  But Mike, there aren't a heck of a lot of other choices.  Standing on the fact of our common nationality and crying shame suggests that you haven't even begun to understand the depth of the betrayal that the last two administrations have palmed off as normal on the American people.  

     As to how much better we have been than the various people we have fought, what makes us so much better?  I love my country, but what we've done to Iraq has been less than Praiseworthy.  Your attempt to cast it that way is understandable, but it is not to my mind connected with a clear vision of the facts of the situation.  

     You say to me, only a Democrat could make that statement (though your use of the small "d" makes me feel a certain pride in the accusation, I must confess), and I ask you to explain the logic behind a statement such as that.  I understand the venom behind it, and the possible wish to flail out, but I see no sort of factual basis.

     And you should not confuse the despicability
of the statement with the despicability of the behavior the statement is describing, which is despicable indeed by most any measure.  Thank you also for revealing your disgust with the French.  You ought to try reading some of their literature some time, eating some of their food, looking at some of their paintings, reading some of their philosophers or visiting some of their sculpture.  In case all of this leaves you cold, you should try giving up the part of the language you've gotten from them.

     I doubt any of this will budge your thinking however.  They aren't better or worse, they are different, which automatically makes them unamerican, doesn't it?

quote:

I see your latest entry. No, Bob, I hadn't responded to you comment up until now. I actually have a life outside of this computer at times and, if time passes that I don't respond promptly, I may actually be involved in that life. Don't hold it against me, please....



     Actually, you haven't responded even now.  You've simply substituted a personal attack for an answer to my questions and comments.  You've then told me that you're too busy to respond, which you believe lets you off the hook and allows you to retire from the field.

     You are free to retire from the field.  You are free to call me names.  You are free to make comments about the amount of time I spend talking here though I suspect you spend more but I think that you might at some point actually wish to think about whether this is a Democrat versus Republican issue at all.  It's pretty clear to me that there are Republicans in the party who would disagree with you about how well the past eight years have gone.  It's not a foul conspiracy that's gotten the Republicans out of office, you know.  The Democrats on the whole are not as good politically at least in my opinion as the Republicans.  The Republicans had to have really made some fairly large mistakes, and they will need to face them or they will make them again.

Yours,

Bob Kaven
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54 posted 10-12-2009 08:29 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, of course it's a political issue. Of course you will deny it with dying breath but the fact of the matter is that, with a Democratic president, there would have been no Abu Ghrab in the headlines, nor any mistreatments at Gitmo....and, if by some chance there were some small mention of them, democrats would have downplayed it to the point it would have been a non-issue. Tell me that the ridiculous actions of a few low-ranking soldiers at Abu Grabh would have caused you to go after Clinton, had he been president at the time, with the same venom you went after Bush. Tell me that it would have caused you to refer to our military and country on an even keel with Hitler and the Viet Cong.

Please tell me how only a Democrat could make such a statement

Simple. That's the democrat standard m.o.  You want to know why conservative talk shows get all of the ratings, Bob? It's because they are positive about America. It's because they speak of the good points about the  country and why people should be proud to be a part of it. Hannity conducts continual Freedom tours (non-political) that attract millions to enjoy music from top groups singing songs about the goodness of America. Beck goes on tour with the same typle of thing. Should you ever listen to Limbaugh or any of them (and I suspect you do) you will hear pure support for our military and America.

What does one hear from the democrats? One hears what is bad about the military, what is bad about the country, how our fighting soldiers are no better than the Nazis who rounded up Jews and shot them in the streets. One hears about all of the things that are wrong with the government (as long as a Republican is in power, of course), how hell is waiting for our handbasket, how we are an uncaring mob of elitists, preying on the misfortunes of the poor and how we should be ashamed of ourselves. Check it out for yourself sometime. Listen to an hour of a liberal talk show and an hour of a conservative talk show and keep count of how many times negativity has been said about the country, not the government in charge, but the country itself and it's people. The comparison won't even be close. How only a democrat could male your statements? Easy...they are the only ones who feel that way.

I love my country, but what we've done to Iraq has been less than Praiseworthy. To you, maybe but there are actually quite a few Iraqis who disagree with you. Right now millions are not living under the  terrorist regime that consisted of knocks on the doors in the dead of night, secret prisons, mass graves, gassing towns to kill thousands at a time. Are there still problems? Of course, but in a situation like that, successfully remaking the government of a country does not come overnight. Based on history, it takes well over a decade and yet, according to your earlier statement, Iraq seems to be well under control already. Less than praiseworth? Once again, it would take a democrat to say that. Under a democrat president, it would have been a wonderful achievement.

You don't have to be a Democrat or a Liberal to have your stomach turn over at the thought of water-boarding somebody, or of allowing someone to be tortured to death when they are under the protection of your custody.

How many instances of that do you recall happening, Bob? How many people were tortured to death under protection of custody? How many waterboarding issues were there and what were the consequences to the prisoners as a result of such tactics?  You have no problem throwing around rhetoric like "stomach turning despicable torture tactics that compare us to the most vile henious in history....due to what? I can tell you what, Bob...politics, pure and simple.

You ought to try reading some of their literature some time, eating some of their food, looking at some of their paintings, reading some of their philosophers or visiting some of their sculpture.

...and you should try inquiring before making such a statement. I lived in France, Bob, in Strassbourg. I've slept on the Left Bank. toured the Louvre, gone to Notre Dame and marched in parades on Bastille Day.  Can you say the same? I also spent a lot of time in the small towns, far away from the bright lights of Pigalle. What do I think about the people? I like them very much. They are like people everywhere with the same wishes to live a happy existence. They love their food, love their wine, and have a joy of life. Would I like for America to live under the same government the French do? No. Would I trade my life for theirs? No. Does it concern me whether they like me or not? No. If you wish to call that disdain, go ahead....just another insult missing it's mark.

Actually, you haven't responded even now.  

Bob, I'll respond to any questions I feel valid and any comments I consider worthy of a return comment. You, of course, have the right to do the same. If you want my participation in a Bash the Military campaign or Nazi-like comparison with our troops and commanders, you're wasting you time directing comments towards me. If you want to paint America as a torture-loving society run amok that should be ashamed of it's existence, you'll have to do it without me.
Ringo
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55 posted 10-12-2009 06:19 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

quote:
Much as I believe Ringo may see it that way.

Bob, Bob, Bob.....
I have intentionally stayed out of this. I started the argument, and then sat back to enjoy the fur flying... much like the referee at a mud wrestling match...

As YOU have brought me back into it.... let's go back to the unadulterated, unabridged, unvarnishede history and see what Ringo believes. Actually, as you know Ringo so well, perhaps we don't need to. You have given his viewpoint for all the world to see...
hmmm....
What to do... what to do...

Roll Tape
quote:
He took office less than two weeks before the nomination deadline, and had done NOTHING to deserve the nomination or the award.

Now, before the partisan arguments start, let me offer the following:
I supported President Carter's award because he worked his backside off bringing peace to the Middle East, and brokering an agreement between Israel and Egypt. He put his reputration on the line trying to bring peace to such places as Haiti and North Korea... and he won it after almost 30 years of working to bring peace to the world.

Al Gore didn't (in my eyes) deserve the award he got; however, he had been working for many years to educate people about the ecology crisis as he saw it. I can understand why they gave it to him.

They were BOTH Democrats. This particular Democrat was nominated because of things he WANTED to do. I would like to cure cancer... give me the Nobel Prize for medicine.


Bob, my dear sir, before you give others the opportunity to think you the fool, please do a quick check of the facts so as to prevent it from being so.

Now, it's back to the sidelines for me.

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "WHAT A RIDE

Stephanos
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56 posted 10-12-2009 07:15 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Brad,

I would dare say none of those examples of yours compares to this one really.  Like them or not, theirs was more rooted in accomplishment than sheer anticipation and potentiality.  The proof?, most on the left are saying the very same thing.  Even Michael Moore said something to that effect.  This was a precedent for what the prize is all about.

And that's a whole separate discussion of whether it is a great thing that a black man is president (and I think it is) ... speaking rather of what he has done as president.

We can agree to disagree here.

Stephen    
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57 posted 10-12-2009 08:43 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

I don't buy the Black Man bologna. I'm more inclined to believe that the prize givers became starry-eyed over Obama's apologies. You know, the ones that painted America as too big, powerful, "arrogant, dismissive, derisive," and so on and so forth...  

The Peace posers fell in love with the idea that our Prez might liken America as powerless or less powerful than the countries who are not free to be so.

Humble is one thing but weak is another.

Many black persons are upset over Obama's flimsy apologetic nature, which is another reason I'm not buying the whole race based distraction.

The Nobels are wacked, and that we can't blame Obama for.
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58 posted 10-12-2009 09:33 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You're absolutely right, Regina. Obama's  "apology tour" was a big hit on the European stage.


BREAKING NEWS: This just in!!! Obama wins the Heisman Trophy after watching a college football game!!!
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59 posted 10-12-2009 09:57 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Ringo,

           I am always a fool.  It's simply part of the risk I take for trying to be reasonably open.  Personal dignity tends to be a bit on the rigid side and sometimes means you have to take positions that you feel obligated to defend even when they're wrong.  I try to avoid that.  Sometimes more adeptly than others.

     I believe that Carter and Gore certainly earned their Nobel Peace Prizes, and in exactly the ways that you explained them.  Did you actually read my explanation for why I thought that President Obama had gotten his?  Because it simply doesn't sound that you have.  I also said that anybody who had made something of a break with the policies of the last eight years, Democrat or Republican would probably have earned the Same Prize, and that it was more of a prize given to the American people for repudiating the policies of the past eight years than a prize specifically to Obama himself.  I don't believe that's such a foolish point of view to take.

     If you do, perhaps you might take a moment and put into words how that might be so.  Indeed the achievement is very large, it is an achievement of the American people as a whole, and the President has been more or less selected a their representative in this.  The process has begun but has not finished, but that is the case with most Nobel Peace Prize winners, including Begin and Arrafat, Carter, Gore, Ghandi, King, An san soo ky   I have never been able to figure out how to spell her name in Myanmar and most of the others.

     At no point did you hear me say that Obama had brought world peace.

     The trouble he is getting ending the torture policy in the U.S. government is very troubling to me, however.  And the fact that he wants to end it, though isn't doing a great job of that as yet, gives me at least some hope.  Efforts to close Gitmo are in improvement over opening it.  Giving up a right to preemptive first strikes is an improvement of asserting the right and the willingness to use them.  All these things may perhaps feel like nothing to you, and at times they feel like very small steps to me; but for such small steps they have provoked very large cries of anguish from the far right.

     So, either it's nothing, as the far right says, and not worthy of recognition, or a world class disaster, as the far right says, and is hugely important.  About this, you will forgive me if I find the far right a less that trustworthy judge of President Obama's record.

     My personal take is that the award is actually to the political sea change in the american electorate, and that's how the award should be accepted.  You might make a case for his personal worthiness, but you'd have to take that discussion up with the Nobel Peace Prize Committee.  Tell them that America doesn't deserve it yet.  I might cosign the letter.  I think we have a way to go, too.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
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60 posted 10-13-2009 07:42 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
BREAKING NEWS: This just in!!! Obama wins the Heisman Trophy after watching a college football game!!!


This isn't true, is it?
  

rwood
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61 posted 10-13-2009 08:58 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Gandhi never won the NPP. He was nominated 5 times, but never got the award.

However, more notably and perhaps more noble are the prizes given in his name:

The Gandhi Peace Prize, given annually from India with a 10 million dollar cash award, and the American Gandhi Peace Award. "It has been issued since 1960 and consists of a certificate, a ceremony, and the presentation of a bronze medallion inscribed with a quotation by Gandhi, "Love Ever Suffers/Never Revenges Itself." Wiki~


Mother Teresa was a NPP recipient, and even she has her critics. Go figure.
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62 posted 10-13-2009 10:43 AM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Re: Ghandi not getting Nobel Peace Prize

so I guess in the eyes of the Norwegians
Obama has accomplished more than Ghandi.

oh those crazy Norwegians!  Why, they're almost mainstream!

Here is a great story on WHY Ghandi was nominated 5 TIMES but deemed not worthy of winning it.  (cached result, so it won't show up cookies)
"http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:2J74Gma2LzEJ:nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/articles/gandhi/index.html+ghandi+nobel+peace+prize&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us"

Obama won it simply because He wasn't Bush.  
Gore won it because the Nobel Committee changed the term: 'global warming' to 'climate change' (which is a win win for Gore:  so ANY climate change will be attributed to ECO-violations.  Brilliant. )
Carter won it because he made sure Israel didn't get their way.
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63 posted 10-13-2009 12:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Not true. it seems...

OSLO Members of the Norwegian committee that gave Barack Obama the Nobel Peace Prize are strongly defending their choice against a storm of criticism that the award was premature and a potential liability for the U.S. president.

Asked to comment on the uproar following Friday's announcement, four members of the five-seat panel told The Associated Press that they had expected the decision to generate both surprise and criticism.

Three of them rejected the notion that Obama hadn't accomplished anything to deserve the award, while the fourth declined to answer that question. A fifth member didn't answer calls seeking comment.

"We simply disagree that he has done nothing," committee chairman Thorbjoern Jagland told the AP on Tuesday. "He got the prize for what he has done."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091013/ap_on_re_eu/eu_nobel_peace_obama

Apparently it did not go the the American people, as Bob suggests. Nor is it because he is not Bush. He EARNED it, at least according to three of five members of the committee. Go figure
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64 posted 10-13-2009 12:37 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Einstein didn't get his for relativity, either.  It was for something reasonably less important.  Also I think a lot of their Nobel Prizes in Literature choices don't go where I think they should, or do go where I think they shouldn't.  I don't know why they keep asking for my opinion if they never listen to my advice.  
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65 posted 10-13-2009 01:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, let me know when a scientist gets one for a formula he didn't produce or an author for a book he/she didn't write and I'll agree
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66 posted 10-13-2009 01:18 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Gore got one for a book that didn't make sense.   And he's not even a scientist.   Same diff, right?

By the way, Gore, how's that Global Warming idea-thingy working out for ya?  Record low temperatures in Nort.America this season, as well as earliest low temps.  

oh yeah, forgot:  that's why they changed 'Global Warmin' name to Climate Change.  For a minute there, the sunspots blinded my perception.

Gore got the PEACE award for his Global Warming work.  HUH?????  and warming has exactly WHAT to do with peace?  
OTCN again  (Oh those crazy Norwegians)
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67 posted 10-13-2009 01:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

How's Gore doing??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf-fzVH6v_U

Typical Gore...
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quote:
By the way, Gore, how's that Global Warming idea-thingy working out for ya?


Based on instrumental measurements taken since 1850 the average global temperature trend is upwards. The data doesn't tell us why it's rising, just that it is.

quote:
Record low temperatures in Nort.America this season, as well as earliest low temps.


I hear that the arctic is pretty cold too, France is comfortably moderate but in Africa the heat is unbearable.

Ever wonder why they call it global warming?

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69 posted 10-13-2009 03:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Climate change, grinch, climate change to be politically correct
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70 posted 10-13-2009 03:47 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Climate change, global warming, it doesn't really matter what you call it Mike. The average global temperature trend is upwards.

It's getting hotter.

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71 posted 10-13-2009 03:52 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I wasn't referring to what I call it, sir. I'm trying to keep up with what the politicians call it....not always an easy thing to do.

I would make a guess that Earth has gone through warming and cooling periods throughout it's history.....just a guess.
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72 posted 10-13-2009 04:19 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


That would be a good guess Mike. There have been numerous periods of warming and cooling throughout earth's history; the most severe of them culminating in mass extinction events. Periods of temperate stability are, as strange as it sounds, not the norm, the earth is generally in either a cooling or warming cycle.

Climate change, when you look at it like that, is a bit of a redundant statement - the climate is almost always changing. If the global temperature is on an upward trend Global Warming is a more accurate term, obviously if the temperature declines for the next 200 years Global Cooling might be more apt.

Brad
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73 posted 10-13-2009 08:28 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad


quote:
I would dare say none of those examples of yours compares to this one really.  Like them or not, theirs was more rooted in accomplishment than sheer anticipation and potentiality.  The proof?, most on the left are saying the very same thing.  Even Michael Moore said something to that effect.  This was a precedent for what the prize is all about.


Yeah, even the Nobel committee seems desperate to come up with reasons for their choice.

Okay, let's agree to disagree. I'm not convinced that this color-blind approach, which seems like a kind of self-censorship at best or a form of denial at worst, is the best way to go.

And of course I'm as guilty of that as the next American, but I can't think of one person from a different country (except Canada) who holds such extreme views on the complete and utter impossibility of discussing racial and ethnic factors in, well, anything.
  
Most people I talk to know who Neil Armstrong is, fewer but some know who Buzz Aldrin is, but almost nobody knows who "Pete" Conrad is.

And as far as I know, that 'first' wasn't based on anything other than the luck of the draw.


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We don't disagree, grinch. As I said before, the politicians changed it to climate change, not me. Perhaps they enjoy redundancy  

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (10-13-2009 10:30 PM).]

 
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