How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Stimulating News of the Day...   [ Page: 1  2  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Stimulating News of the Day...

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


0 posted 10-08-2009 08:06 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


WASHINGTON (Reuters) – President Barack Obama met on Wednesday with the two top Democrats in Congress to discuss ways to spur the economy and reverse a climb in the U.S. unemployment rate, which is now at a 26-year-high.

So much for bi-partisanship. Guess no Republicans have any ideas...

Obama has touted the unprecedented $787 billion economic stimulus package passed by Congress earlier this year as having helped to rescue the economy from its worst crisis since the Great Depression.

Really? Where? How? When?

While some Democrats are pushing for additional measures to boost growth, Republicans have taken aim at the stimulus package. They contend it has done little jump-start growth but has added massively to the U.S. budget deficit.
Republicans stepped up their criticism of Obama's handling of the economy after government figures showed the unemployment rate inched upward to 9.8 percent, the highest since 1983.


Go figure them Republicans! Just because the unemployment rate went to a new high  since the stimulus plan went into effect, they think it didn't help. The nerve!!!!

"Today's meeting with the president reinforces our shared commitment to creating more jobs and providing relief to the millions of Americans who are out of work," Reid said in a statement.

I agree. Reid SHOULD be committed!

A day after the jobs report was released, Obama said in his weekly radio and Internet address that he and his economic team would "explore additional options to promote job creation," a comment that spurred speculation that a second stimulus package was in the works.

Additional options? How about original ones? By all means, bring on a second stimulus plan since the first one has worked so well. The printing presses at the Treasury still have some ink left.

But the White House has emphasized that no decisions have been made.

Which, translated into plain English, means stock up on Preparation H, America.

Democrats are eager to put the economy on a sounder footing before next year's congressional election.

I KNEW there had to be some reason!

"Republicans are on the side of the American people," said Representative Mike Pence, a member of the House Republican leadership. "We are demanding that this administration and Democrats in Congress focus on more jobs."

You're asking for a lot, Mike.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091007/pl_nm/us_obama_economy_5

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama is spending much of the day in private, with closed-door meetings scheduled with senior advisers and officials such as Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton.

The president also will be spending time on the White House basketball court. He'll drop by to watch the National Naval Medical Center's Marine Wounded Warrior basketball team play.

And later in the day, the president himself will shoot some hoops with Cabinet secretaries and members of Congress.


At least his time will be well-spent. There will be a lot of dribbling on that court!. I'm trying hard to picture members of Congress shooting hoops but it just isn't coming

Good thing Bush didn't try to play golf orr anything while any crisis was going on. The press would have butchered him.....oh, wait. They DID!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091008/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_preview_1
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


1 posted 10-15-2009 02:09 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I heard on the news that the bulk of the stimulus money is to be infused into the economy just prior to the 2010 elections.

Imagine that.
threadbear
Senior Member
since 07-10-2008
Posts 729
Indy


2 posted 10-15-2009 02:30 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

8 months later, and only 15% of the stimulus IMMEDIATE need funds are spent.  Remember when I told you this would happen 8 months ago, and was laughed at.  I said at the time that there would not be an immediate infusion of cash, or that the parts that were infused (like banks ie) wouldn't spend the money (TARP or Stimulus) and transfer their windfall into their 'profit' sides of the ledgers without granting loans.  

I called into C-SPAN and had a mini-debate with the Transportation Chairman (Jay Rockefeller)  and expressed my lack of confidence that even road works projects or infrastructure repair (roads, bridges, etc- another broken Obama Promise) wouldn't happen for at least a year until the bid process was done.  He politely told me I was nuts.  That the stimulus WOULD create jobs.  Un huh.  

Well, we have a jobless recovery- no new net jobs, as a matter of fact, a net loss.  

NOTHING ever happens quickly in Washington.  Now, because this stimulus isn't working quickly enough, there is major talk of STIMULUS III (remember: Stimulus I was the Bush Stimulus.)

Don't they EVER learn?

Let me go through the checklist of things I mentioned almost a year ago here:
-The crash of the dollar - check
- ACORN being a huge news story - check
- ACORN was/is corrupt thru and thru - check
- That the Stimulus bill wouldn't see gains for a year - check
- That the Stimulus bill wouldn't see job gains - check
- That the TARP funds wouldn't see gains in the private sector- check (no new small business loans granted)
- That Obama's questionable friends would be an issue for him - megacheck
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


3 posted 10-15-2009 03:43 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't think it's a matter of them learning, I think everything is going exactly according to their plans.

I also heard that Congress will be granting ACORN funding again at the end of the month. What's up with that?! So the vote to defund was only good for a month?!
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


4 posted 10-15-2009 05:04 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Well, we have a jobless recovery- no new net jobs, as a matter of fact, a net loss.

Clearly, then, we didn't need to do anything.

Just like we didn't need to react to 911 by increasing security measures and attacking the perpetrators (those we could find). After all, there hasn't been any planes hijacked or towers destroyed in the last eight years?

p.s. I could spend several hours looking up and reporting the road and infrastructure repairs just in my little corner of Michigan, and the jobs that relied on them, but frankly I get detoured around them or delayed by them so much that I think I've invested enough time already. Oh, and that state trooper who gave me a ticket last week for not buckling my seat belt? Yep, he and 49 other troopers laid off last year were brought back as a direct result of Federal money.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


5 posted 10-15-2009 05:12 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Tell that trooper to save his money, Ron. When the stimulus handout doesn't keep coming, he'll need it.

...and tell the construction boys to do the same, just in case.
threadbear
Senior Member
since 07-10-2008
Posts 729
Indy


6 posted 10-15-2009 05:36 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Ron, this is tricky to explain, but the money you see for Michigan road works projects was actually due to two things:
1) State funds from Michigan
2) Result 10 months later from Stimulus I, which was Bush's stimulus plan that got the bid contracts worked out and put people to work.  Passed a year ago, ratified only a few months ago, and from what I hear, the governors of most states are pretty happy with their individual state bailouts, which all came from Stimulus I.

The tricky part is that the government stimulus money allowed many states (not Michigan, tho)  to keep from going in the red as they diverted their states funds back into their state coffers when they received the Fed bailout money.  

Why is this important? Because the state 'Payback' rate for municipal bonds that fund spending are largely based upon the amount of faith people have in that state's ability to payback loaned money.  Show a deficit, bonds don't sell, and states have to offer a HIGHER interest rate to attract lenders.  Show an improvement on your books thru stimulus, and you get to offer attractive low-interest loans to support infrastructure repairs.

Last time I looked, State troopers are not shovel ready, but i could be wrong.....  Like I said earlier: government associated programs and jobs would be the FIRST to see results, and they were.  What part of that don't you agree with?

My contention all along is that Stimulus II wasn't needed, and it wouldn't do anything for shovel-ready jobs until the Feds red-taped it to death a year later after they reviewed ALL the contract bids.  None of these projects EVER goes into shovel-digging until a year AFTER they are passed.  Bureauacracy, pure and simple.  

Bottom line, if you think there is gain to your state from the Stimulus, then thank George Bush.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


7 posted 10-15-2009 06:36 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Tell that trooper to save his money, Ron. When the stimulus handout doesn't keep coming, he'll need it.

...and tell the construction boys to do the same, just in case.

Mike, I tell everyone to save money. If someone isn't setting aside at least ten percent of their net income they're needlessly risking their future. It doesn't matter how much a person makes; the only thing that ever matters is how much a person keeps.

You're right, of course. There's no guarantee the troopers or construction workers will continue being paid. I'm just guessing here, Mike, but I have to suspect you don't have too many ironclad guarantees either? I know I sure don't.

quote:
Bottom line, if you think there is gain to your state from the Stimulus, then thank George Bush.

Really? Was that particular George Bush in the Senate or the House, TB?

FTR, and for those who don't remember, I wasn't a big proponent of a government stimulus program. I thought it was a very expensive way to instill confidence in the American economy. And, of course, that's exactly what it was all about. The government money spent in the last year has helped a lot of individuals, especially in hard-hit areas like Michigan, but it has done very little for or to our economy. I don't think it matters how much has been spent, nor how much remains to be spent. The only thing that has really mattered is consumer confidence. With 90 percent of America still drawing paychecks, the greatest danger was always fear and diffidence. What our government did was less important than our government doing something.

In my opinion, the stimulus program has been shock and awe all over again. It was a lot more than necessary, but it's hard to argue it didn't do the job.


Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


8 posted 10-15-2009 07:09 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I don't think it matters how much has been spent, nor how much remains to be spent. The only thing that has really mattered is consumer confidence. With 90 percent of America still drawing paychecks, the greatest danger was always fear and diffidence. What our government did was less important than our government doing something.


I think you're spot on.

Nothing to fear but fear itself.

.
threadbear
Senior Member
since 07-10-2008
Posts 729
Indy


9 posted 10-15-2009 07:13 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

I have to admit, Ron, that for the most part, Stimulus I was a success.  Perception of good financial shape colors many things:
- interest rates
- Dow Jones Averages (actually over 10,000 for the first time in a year today)
- Muni-bonds being able to be sold for state works projects
- Bank liquidity for interest loans
- Wall street in the form of higher value stock prices due to consumer confidence

The financial system, Wall Streets and the value of the dollar is all held together with 'mirrors, wires and airplane glue' (to quote my Econ prof).

You asked, Ron, whether Bush was in the Senate or House, but if you remember right in his lame-duck years, he was bucked by most of his own party on the Stimulus project that his administration and FED Reserve Bernancke introduced (not the Senate, not the House, and not the Republicans), and was soundly criticized for adding to the 'deficit' (remember all that hang-wringing?)  The argument FOR the Stimulus Act of 2008 was to stem off further deepening of the Recession.  In that respect, it appears it is a success...if...the dollar can be stabilized.  

What I don't agree with is Stimulus II has anything at all to do with our recovery....yet.  It could have, but the results won't really bear out for another 3-6 months.  These trillion dollar bailouts are like killing a mosquito with a bazooka.  You're guaranteed to bag at least a few of the buggers.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


10 posted 10-15-2009 07:32 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
It could have, but the results won't really bear out for another 3-6 months.

Thanks, Grinch.

Apparently, TB doesn't agree however. His post suggests he continues to believe the money, spent in 3-6 months or a few years from now, is the critical issue. Only when the money is spent will the value be realized? I believe the value started accruing the instant our government stepped up to the plate, bat in hand. They didn't have to hit a home run; they just had to be seen to be willing to swing.

p.s. This just in, courtesy my local six o'clock news: Home sales in Grand Rapids, second largest city in Michigan, were up 37 percent for September. Couple consumer confidence with an $8,000 tax credit and even the most broke state in the union (excuse the hyperbole) can feel like it's rallying.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


11 posted 10-15-2009 11:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I'm just guessing here, Mike, but I have to suspect you don't have too many ironclad guarantees either? I know I sure don't.

No, I don't, Ron, but I feel that I can state my scenario with more conviction than you can. That's why some states refused stimulus money. They knew the bind it would put them in when the free dollars stopped coming.

What our government did was less important than our government doing something.

I'd never considered you an advocate of "Do something, even if it's wrong", Ron. Guess I was wrong?

but it's hard to argue it didn't do the job.

I don't find it hard at all. It can all  be measured by one thing....unemployment. Stimulus didn't lower unemployment. Actually, it kept rising. Unemployment is the key and has to logically be the main target of any stimulus plan. The plan has failed miserably in that regard.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


12 posted 10-16-2009 12:06 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Contractors kept or created 30,000 jobs because of stimulus


The impact varied widely from state to state. The reports, released by the administration's Recovery Accountability and Transparency Board, identified almost 4,700 full-time jobs in Colorado, but fewer than six in Rhode Island, which had the nation's third-worst unemployment rate in August. In Michigan, which had the nation's highest unemployment rate, the contracts created or saved fewer than 400 full-time jobs.

Obama has said the stimulus will create or save 3.5 million jobs by the end of next year, but measuring that impact has been difficult. The White House Council of Economic Advisors estimated last month that the stimulus had retained 1 million jobs that otherwise would have been lost. Overall, the economy has shed more than 2 million jobs since Obama signed the stimulus package in February.

The contractors' reports "don't answer the question of what the overall impact of the stimulus is on jobs in the economy," said University of Chicago economist Steven Davis. For example, the recipient reports do not say whether those employed on stimulus projects would have had jobs anyway, he said. http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-10-15-stimulus-jobs_N.htm?csp=34
threadbear
Senior Member
since 07-10-2008
Posts 729
Indy


13 posted 10-16-2009 01:02 AM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

From what I can gather, I averaged together about 10 of the 'costs per job' estimates
and the average is approximately $165,000 per job.

Roughly, the public gets about 4-5 jobs per million spent by the stimulus.  That's pretty awful, but consider this:  if the jobs are government sector, then NOTHING is produced, and no financial value added to the market.  

In Ron's home state of Michigan, $3.7 billion was  spent in stimulus money, and resulted in 19,500 jobs.  That is a cost-per-job ratio of $190,000 per job.
Ah, now the BAD news for Michigan: they hemorrhaged 33,000 per month for the first six months and 20,000 EACH month after.
Total yearly net loss of jobs:....         318,000
Total jobs gained by stimulus in year:  19,500
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


14 posted 10-16-2009 10:38 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
That's why some states refused stimulus money. They knew the bind it would put them in when the free dollars stopped coming.

Really? Isn't that about like refusing to go to work because no one will guarantee you a job for the rest of your life? Why take a job that might not last forever, after all?

I prefer to think that some states refuse Federal money because they don't like the inevitable conditions that are tied to the money. The Feds, for example, can't Constitutionally regulate traffic laws; they can and have, however, tied a 55 mph speed limit to Federal funding of roads. State Rights haven't just been eroded, they've been bought on the open market. That at least a few states aren't selling is good news.

quote:
I'd never considered you an advocate of "Do something, even if it's wrong", Ron

Define "wrong," Mike.

If you see a guy laying face down in a deep mud puddle, there's not a whole lot of things you can for him that would be wrong. There might be some things I'd like to see more than others, but I'm not really going to fault you for saving his life.

The one thing you don't want to do, of course, is stand there for fifteen minutes thinking about what you should do.

quote:
I don't find it hard at all. It can all be measured by one thing....unemployment.

I have two words for you, Mike: Lagging indicator. Measuring the success or failure of an economic policy by unemployment figures is a bit like a night out with the boys. Just because you're not currently standing at the urinal, doesn't mean you necessarily have to still be thirsty? Your trips to the bathroom are a lagging indictor of how much you drank. The falling down parts are even more of a lagging indicator.  

quote:
Contractors kept or created 30,000 jobs because of stimulus

Let's not tell just part of the story, Mike.

That 30K number represents the results of only 2 percent of reporting and that only for government construction contracts. Two percent obviously isn't going to represent a valid cross section, so a comparison between Rhode Island and Colorado is probably a little premature. The Administration would like us to do the math (30,383 jobs divided by 2.03 percent) and predict a job savings of 1,494,463 -- but personally I think that prediction would also be premature. We don't have enough data yet to do more than hope.

The more important point to keep in mind is that this report targets only direct jobs. That construction worker whose salary came out of government coffers worked only about forty hours a week. The rest of the time, he was probably out spending money that kept several other people working to service his needs. The single mom working lunches at his local dinner is every bit as much a recipient of Federal money as the construction worker. But she doesn't get counted in this report. And the landlord she pays with her tips? He doesn't get counted, either.

BTW, threadbear -- the roads and high rises being built by stimulus dollars hardly qualify as nothing being produced. It's called infrastructure for good reason? If you really want to see no financial value added to the market, you might want to explore what happens without transportation. It ain't pretty.

In my opinion, the success or failure of Federal stimulus can only be measured by consumer confidence. Not unemployment, which notoriously lags economic realities. But if you really insist on looking at unemployment numbers, please, let's look at the full picture instead of just a sliver of it. Unemployment ain't great. Even that, however, is at least headed in the right direction.


Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


15 posted 10-16-2009 02:01 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Really? Isn't that about like refusing to go to work because no one will guarantee you a job for the rest of your life?

No, Ron. It's like the government saying here's money to hire 100 police officers but there's no guarantee it will be there next year so hire them, knowing their salaries may be on YOUR head in  the future.

Define "wrong," Mike.

Wrong would be stepping on the man's head until he drowns to save him the agony of a prolonged death.  Wrong would be quadrupling the national debt because you "gotta do something". Wrong would be completely dismantling the health care system and putting it under government control because you "gotta do something". That was the answer many of the politicians gave when negative points came up about the government-proposed health care takeover..."Well, we gotta do something!"

I have two words for you, Mike: Lagging indicator.

Lagging indicator, Ron? Obama said nothing about lagging indicators when he predicted unemployment would fall by end of summer. There was no lagging indicator mentioned when he spoke of the shovel-ready jobs, ready to put Americans back to work. NOW, since unemployment has continued to rise and the number of jobs nowhere near what Obama had predicted, now we hear of lagging indicators, which sounds like nothing more than a pathetic excuse to me. What is lagging is Obama's follow-through with his promises, which were obviously unrealistic when he made them.

The single mom working lunches at his local dinner is every bit as much a recipient of Federal money as the construction worker. But she doesn't get counted in this report. And the landlord she pays with her tips? He doesn't get counted, either.

You mean the tips she got  from the construction worker's salary from his 40 hour job let her keep her job and pay her rent and save her landlord? Thos construction workers must be some real tippers!  (At least for a week) Ron, it almost sounds like you are applauding trickle-down economics!

Not unemployment, which notoriously lags economic realities.

Tell that to the unemployed. They find a lot of reality to it. Tell it to their landlords and the waitresses they tip and the stores where they buy groceries and the barbers who cut their hair and their kids they can't buy things for. Try to explain the lag to them.

Unemployment ain't great. Even that, however, is at least headed in the right direction.

Since when  is up the right direction for unemployment?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


16 posted 10-16-2009 02:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

"In my opinion, the success or failure of Federal stimulus can only be measured by consumer confidence. "

Well then, let's take a look....


The Conference Board Consumer Confidence Index® Dips in September

September 29, 2009

The Conference Board Consumer Confidence Index®, which had improved in August, dipped in September. The Index now stands at 53.1 (1985=100), down from 54.5 in August. The Present Situation Index decreased to 22.7 from 25.4. The Expectations Index declined to 73.3 from 73.8 last month.

The Consumer Confidence Survey® is based on a representative sample of 5,000 U.S. households. The monthly survey is conducted for The Conference Board by TNS. TNS is the world's largest custom research company. The cutoff date for September's preliminary results was September 22nd.

Says Lynn Franco, Director of The Conference Board Consumer Research Center: "Consumer Confidence, which had improved in August, retreated slightly in September. The Present Situation Index decreased, as consumers viewed both current business conditions and the labor market less favorably than last month. While not as pessimistic as earlier this year, consumers remain quite apprehensive about the short-term outlook and their incomes. With the holiday season quickly approaching, this is not very encouraging news."

Consumers' assessment of current conditions was less favorable in September. Those claiming business conditions are "bad" increased to 46.3 percent from 44.6 percent, while those claiming conditions are "good" increased to 8.7 percent from 8.5 percent. Consumers' appraisal of the job market was also less favorable. Those claiming jobs are "hard to get" increased to 47.0 percent from 44.3 percent, while those claiming jobs are "plentiful" decreased to 3.4 percent from 4.3 percent.

Consumers' short-term outlook was also slightly more pessimistic. Those anticipating an improvement in business conditions over the next six months decreased to 21.3 percent from 22.2 percent, while those expecting conditions to worsen decreased to 15.0 percent from 15.2 percent.

The labor market outlook was virtually unchanged. Those expecting more jobs in the months ahead edged down to 17.9 percent from 18.0 percent, while those expecting fewer jobs remained the same at 23.1 percent. The proportion of consumers expecting an increase in their incomes increased slightly to 11.2 percent from 10.8 percent.
http://www.conference-board.org/economics/ConsumerConfidence.cfm
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


17 posted 10-16-2009 02:27 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What Happened (Week Ending Oct. 4)

    * Consumer Confidence took a tumble after three good weeks as Gallup's Consumer Confidence Index worsened to -29 from its highs of the year. Consumer confidence now stands essentially where it stood a month ago. A year ago, as the financial crisis deepened, the Index was at -61. The percentage of Americans saying the economy is "getting better" fell 7 percentage points to 36%, essentially matching its level of a month ago. The percentage saying the economy is "getting worse" fell as well (falling 6 points from a week ago), matching its level of a month ago at 58%. The sharp drop in consumer confidence after enjoying three weeks of new highs reflects the fragile nature of consumer perceptions at this point in time.
    *
      Job Creation also tumbled as Gallup's Job Creation Index fell to zero from the prior week's high of +3. The percentage of employees saying their companies are hiring is at 26% -- up from 22% a month ago but down from 32% a year ago. The percentage of workers saying their companies are letting people go is also at 26% -- the same as a month ago and 5 points higher than a year ago. This decline in the Job Creation Index suggests the prior week's improvement may once again be more of a blip than a trend as was the case in mid-May.
    *
      Consumer Spending increased as self-reported daily spending in stores, restaurants, gas stations, and online averaged $67 -- up from the previous week's $60-per-day spending level -- but remaining in the range of recent weeks ($60-$72). Some of this uptick in spending may result from the fact that this is one of those weeks that encompasses a payday for many consumers. Spending continues to reflect the "new normal," remaining down 30% from spending during the same week a year ago.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/123476/gallup-economic-weekly-consumer-confidence-tumbles.aspx
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


18 posted 10-16-2009 04:31 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
It's like the government saying here's money to hire 100 police officers but there's no guarantee it will be there next year so hire them, knowing their salaries may be on YOUR head in the future.

LOL. Mike, you just defined capitalism.

I don't know of any successful business that refuses to hire people because they don't have a guarantee they can afford them next year. Get used to it, Mike; there are no guarantees. Not in business, not in government, and certainly not in life.

quote:
Wrong would be stepping on the man's head until he drowns to save him the agony of a prolonged death.

Good thing no one did that, then, isn't it?

Morally, though, I wonder if it would be all that much worse than simply doing nothing? Or, worse, actively preventing someone else from helping the guy because you don't like the way they intend to do it?

quote:
What is lagging is Obama's follow-through with his promises, which were obviously unrealistic when he made them.

I don't disagree, Mike. Political promises are almost always unrealistic. That's probably because people expect guarantees?

Like you, I would have preferred realistic goals. Still, I think goals you can't possibly reach are better than no goals at all.

quote:
Ron, it almost sounds like you are applauding trickle-down economics!

Applauding? I certainly acknowledge the reality that economics, by its very nature, doesn't exist in a vacuum. And, no, one construction worker isn't going to pay anyone's rent. Fortunately, you don't see too many job sites with just one guy working.

quote:
Tell that to the unemployed. They find a lot of reality to it. Tell it to their landlords and the waitresses they tip and the stores where they buy groceries and the barbers who cut their hair and their kids they can't buy things for. Try to explain the lag to them.

When unemployment reaches zero percent, Mike, that argument might work for you. Unfortunately, the guy who is unemployed today is facing almost exactly the same problems as the guy who couldn't find work during the boom years. I certainly won't disagree that individuals are hurting. I just don't find it relevant to your argument that unemployment is the only indicator that matters.


Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


19 posted 10-16-2009 05:46 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I like figures.

Sometimes they can really tell you things.

10% is less than 20% of a given number for instance and +6 is more than -6. Sometimes though they're a complete waste of time, this is one of those.

Unless you can tell me what the unemployment rate would have been without the stimulus package Mike none of your figures are worth a bean. For all I know it could have been 20% or 30% without the stimulus - in which case the stimulus package starts to look like a really good idea.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


20 posted 10-16-2009 07:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

the guy who is unemployed today is facing almost exactly the same problems as the guy who couldn't find work during the boom years.

True enough, Ron, but there are so many more of them and, because there are more of them, there is less money circulating and being spent and less being paid in taxes for governmental use.

I just don't find it relevant to your argument that unemployment is the only indicator that matters.

Not the only, Ron, but the most important. When people are working, things work out a lot better. If you want to hold on to the premise that consumer confidence is the most important indicator, then we are in REAL trouble.

Obama can talk until he is blue in the face on how the stimulus plan is working but, for as long at the unemployment percentage keeps rising, it's all hot air.

Grinch, yes, the democrats tried to use that same excuse. It didn't work for them, either.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


21 posted 10-16-2009 07:15 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I don't know of any successful business that refuses to hire people because they don't have a guarantee they can afford them next year. Get used to it, Mike; there are no guarantees. Not in business, not in government, and certainly not in life.

True enough,  Ron, but that's not what we have here (as I think you know).

You are a fellow living on a fairly strict budget. You live in a house with the basics in furniture, nothing more...a chair, a small couch, no tv...just the basics because that's all you can afford. Your rich uncle (me) comes in one day and says, "Ron, it pains me to see you living like this. I'm going to furnish your house and make the payments for you." So I get you a nice fluffy couch, some pictures on the wall, a big- screen tv and other items to make your existence a lot more bearable. Problem is, I come back a year later and say "Ron, I've fallen on a bit of hard times and I'm not making the payments any more". You are now scrambling to either find a way to pay for all of the things I gave you or letting them go and going back to the way you were.

That has nothing to do with capitalism, Ron
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


22 posted 10-16-2009 07:48 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Grinch, yes, the democrats tried to use that same excuse. It didn't work for them, either.


I've no idea why it wouldn't work Mike - because it happens to be the truth.

I'm not saying that the effect has been positive or negative; all I'm saying is that it's a fallacy to believe that you can measure the effect one way or the other without knowing what the effect of not implementing the package would have been.

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


23 posted 10-16-2009 08:02 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... or letting them go and going back to the way you were.

Bingo.  

And, I might add, no worse off than before either.

quote:
When people are working, things work out a lot better.

Absolutely, Mike. Absolutely.

But what do you want to have them doing? Who's supposed to pay them for their work? It's probably not going to be a business that can't make any money because they can't sell anything. It's not going to be a corporation whose stock just plummeted. And it's almost certainly not going to be the guy who couldn't start a new business because the bank wouldn't cover his loan.

Capitalism ends at the happy worker, Mike. That's not where it starts.

The stock market is going up. Housing is starting to look better. Advertising is finally starting to rebound (Google made $1.6 billion last quarter). It takes money to make money, Mike. That's true for business and it's equally true for the worker. We're not out of the woods yet, in my opinion, but I can guarantee you that employment will follow profit. It always has, it always will.

It's called the stimulus plan, Mike. Far as I know, it never was called the employment plan.

quote:
Obama can talk until he is blue in the face on how the stimulus plan is working but, for as long at the unemployment percentage keeps rising, it's all hot air.

What does that kind of logic say about terrorists, Mike? So long as the loss of American lives continues to rise? What does that mean?

Winning a battle is a process. Crying Uncle 'cause victory didn't come as quickly as you'd hoped has never been our way. Especially when victory is clearly in sight.


Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


24 posted 10-16-2009 08:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Tell that to Obama, grinch, because they ARE measuring effects one way or another...their way. What you are saying is that Democrats can no more say that the stimulus plan is working than the Republicans can say it isn't.

Reid said he's convinced the stimulus package helped save the world's economy.

"Times are tough. We know how high unemployment is. And I want you all to focus on how much worse things would have been had we not acted," Reid said.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Stimulating News of the Day...   [ Page: 1  2  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors