How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 "The Anger of the Festering Fringe"   [ Page: 1  2  3  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

"The Anger of the Festering Fringe"

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


25 posted 10-04-2009 10:01 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I don't think it's likely that he was trying to insult the government Well, maybe that's how they offer praise in Missouri. SInce I was born and raised in Missouri, I doubt it.

the idea that your government is somehow consciously trying to exterminate the uninsured is ludicrous in the extreme. Exactly, which makes the use of the word ludicrous.

Besides if Grayson is levelling that charge at the government he has to include his own and every previous government, Republican and Democrat.

But isn't that what all Democrats are doing, including Obama? When they talk about America not providing health insurance, they are speaking of all governments in power up to now.

But there's a catch...

If you were to bring that point up to him, or any Democrat, you would get the response that Republican administrations did nothing to reform health care. Democratic administrations tried their best but were always thwarted by evil Republican congresses, who shot them down. It's not their fault!  Same tired rhetoric, excuses and fingerpointing that has become so predicatble.

Grayson is Jewish - which would make him even more sensitive to drawing such parallels.

Sensitive? You expect sensitivity from a man who just claimed that Republicans want everyone who gets sick to die quickly? There are Republican Jews, too, believe it or not. He had no problem including them in that accusation.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


26 posted 10-04-2009 10:47 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

United Nation listing of deaths per 1000
(2005 - 2010)

United Kingdom     9.9%
United States      8.2%
Cuba               7.6%
Canada             7,2%

2009 List by the CIA World Factbook

United Kingdom     10.02%
United States       8.38%
Canada              7.74%
Cuba                7.24%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_death_rate


What are the major causes of deaths, according the the WHO per 100,000?


Cardiovascular diseases          29.34%
Infectious and parasitic diseases 19.12%
Ischemic heart disease               12.64%
Malignant neoplasms (cancers)     12.49%
Cerebrovascular disease (Stroke)   9.66%

Over 83% of deaths are caused by these five areas.

These figures could make one wonder why the UK, who provides treatment to all, has a higher mortality rate than the US, who cold-heartedly lets people die by not giving them health care.

I have little doubt reasoning will come out to explain that......

Ringo
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 02-20-2003
Posts 3696
Saluting with misty eyes


27 posted 10-04-2009 11:35 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

quote:
The difference that you either can’t see or aren’t willing to admit, Balladeer, is that the anti-Bush fringe element carried banners and signs whereas members of right-wing hate Obama fringe groups are carrying lethal weapons. Not only have they brought guns and automatic rifles near to where the President was speaking, they’ve also brought them to tea parties and local town halls. There is an undercurrent of lethal violence about to erupt that’s nearly palpable, fueled by the hate speech and rhetoric of those like the anti-Obama Fox talk show hosts.


Submitted for your perusal, so you might tell me how this man is either a racist, or a member of the "fringe right" who are carrying guns and spouting hate speech against the President. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvlmaWi9t_c&feature=related

Then, there is the true liberal press who are reporting the incident... Take the time to read the replies at the bottom... the posts about President Obama carrying are rather interesting. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/17/man-carrying-semi-automat_n_261279.html
(Of course, as a "right winger, I have not my own thoughts and opinions, so I followed Mike's lead and posted something from the Huffington Post!! lol)

quote:
And today Mike -- over 100 people died because we perpetuated, intentionally, a system that doesn't provide health coverage for its' citizens.
Tomorrow and the next day will be the same, by your intention.  If you aren't for covering them -- you're for not covering them.

Then, what happened when the Billery were in power? They had a Democratic majority, and yet, nothing happened? WHat about with the former administration? There was a Democratic majority. and yet, nothing was presented in the health care arena.
It seems to only be now, when- again- there is a Democratic majority that the Republicans couldn't stop if they wanted to, that the REPUBLICANS are being accused of blocking health care reform.

One more reason that it is impossible to believe any numbers that EITHER side uses in their attempt to sway people to their way of thinking:
quote:
Nearly 45,000 people die in the United States each year -- one every 12 minutes -- in large part because they lack health insurance and can not get good care...
-Reuters 9/17/2009

quote:
We may know intellectually that 18,000 Americans die each year because they don’t have insurance...
-NY Times blogger Nicholas Kristof

quote:
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007, their latest data available.
-National Coalition on Health Care[?QUOTE]
[QUOTE]...A closer look at that report reveals the Census data include 9.487 million people who are “not a citizen.” Subtracting the 10 million non-Americans, the number of uninsured Americans falls to roughly 37 million.
-Business and Media Institute

quote:
The Census “underreported” the number of people covered by health insurance – meaning that more people have insurance than the report suggests. The Census also underreported the number of people covered by Medicare and Medicaid.
-Cheryl Lee Hill, co-author od the census report

quote:
The number of Americans with no health insurance is continuing to grow as more and more employers say they can’t afford to offer group insurance … People who try to buy insurance on their own often find the price beyond their reach...
-Katie Couric, CBS Evening News, May 23, 2009

quote:
there are 8.3 million uninsured people who make between $50,000 and $74,999 per year and 8.74 million who make more than $75,000 a year[/QUOTEthere are 8.3 million uninsured people who make between $50,000 and $74,999 per year and 8.74 million who make more than $75,000 a year.
-Census Bureau report “Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States


By doing the math from all of these different sources, the percentage of Americans who do not have, and cannot afford health care coverage is between 8% and 14%. This is reported by the Kaiser Family Foundation, a non-profit that is often cited by those pursuing a liberal agenda... and that does not include people such as the Christian Scientists and others who do not believe in human medical intervention.

So, my friends, while you are on here, or with your friends, or attepmting to convince a non-caring, poor-hating, self-centered, ego-driven conservative (such as me) to see the error of his ways and to become a more compassionate person, and to have love in his heart for his fellow man, remember that the numbers you might be spouting are so wrong, and subject to debate that it almost makes the argument laughable.
Yes, I agree that even 8.2 million people is far too many to be without health care; yes, I agree that even one child who gets sick, and is not permitted to get better is a complete tragedy. I just don't feel that I need to feel sorry for as many as 30 million people who have the means to purchase insurance and choose not to, or to feel that people who are in this country by means other than registering with the US Immigration and Naturalization Service deserve so much as an aspirin tablet for their stubbed toe.
To end this rant, I ask a simple request:
When I was stationed in Memphis (going to school for the Marine Corps), I was permitted the honor of volunteering at St. Jude's a few times, and was part of a troupe of Marines who went in and acted the fool, and went all Patch Adams on the kids. I have seen the devastation that no insurance does to families, and the money that some of those families lost by packing up and moving to SW Tennessee to be near their kids, or the lost wages from not working as often as they might with healthy children. I also have a friend who- through no fault of her own- has no insurance, and takes her child to the Philadelphia Shriner's Hospital once a month for treatment, and I see the pain and anguish in her eyes every time she talks about it.
Instead of sitting on here and complaining about semantics, or yelling about the politicized numbers, or laughing about the opposition and feeling so superior about your "knowledge" of the situation and the foolish people who don't believe as you do,  go over to your check book, grab one of the pages out of it, and write a number that is going to make a significant change in your life, yet is not going to adversely affect your finances, and then make it to the order of one of the following organizations:
St. Jude's CHildren's Research Hospital
The Shriners
The Ronald McDonald House

These and many others are ignoring the politics and helping the families of sick children in whatever way they can. Make their job a little easier by helping them.

Oh, yeah, one last thing...
My friend is doing a series of local concerts to raise money for the SHriners Hospital. IF you would like to help, get ahold of me, and I will give you the address to send your check.

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "WHAT A RIDE

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


28 posted 10-04-2009 01:02 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Mike,

quote:
These figures could make one wonder why the UK, who provides treatment to all, has a higher mortality rate than the US, who cold-heartedly lets people die by not giving them health care.


Excellent point.

You offer a far better argument when you present clear facts and figures and a bit of common sense than when you're posting all those second hand opinions and links.



I must admit it wasn't the line of argument I was expecting though. I thought you were going to point out that the report on uninsured deaths was based on a point in time survey - they asked people if they had insurance and then counted the numbers that died in a given period. What they didn't do was try to find out if those people had insurance at the time they died.

If 100% of them didn't have insurance when asked but had it when they died the number of people who died because they didn't have insurance is exactly zero.

Oh! The difference in mortality rates? It's probably something to do with the weird and wonderful way they calculate the figure for crude mortality rates which doesn't take into account expected death rate figures as opposed to the standardised mortality rate which does.

This might explain it..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_rate

It means that if the people in Uzbekistan are more likely to die than those in Kurdistan then the crude mortality rate is expected to be higher in Uzbekistan than in Kurdistan.

Incidentally you can use the same argument against Grayson's Harvard report - some people are more likely to die than others, whether they have health insurance or not makes no difference whatsoever.

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


29 posted 10-04-2009 02:24 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

What part of the Constitution does that violate, LR? Where exactly is that written? Today, over one hundred people died in car accidents. Is that because the government has not come up with a car that can protect people in accidents? Today, dozens of people were murdered. Is that because the government wasn't able to insure their safety? Nobody is born with a guarantee in their crib, LR.



What does the constitution have to do with it Mike?  Other than that preamble thing?     Oh, right -- and that part about us getting to decide what is in the government's purview and what isn't. That whole democracy thing.  Keep forgetting about that?

Yep it's all about choice.  

You choose that people who are sick, or injured, and don't have medical coverage and can't afford to pay for it -- die. (or spontaneously heal).

That's your choice.

quote:

That 44,000 figure....how valid is it? Are you going to contend that, with health insurance, they wouldn't have died?



Probably not very valid at all Mike.  It was conducted by scientists (at Harvard) and, well, we know how Republicans feel about those wacky scientists. (and Massachusetts)     And, yes, that was the point of the study -- not to prove that people with health insurance never die -- but that 45,000 deaths occur because of lack of health insurance specifically.
http://www.ajc.com/health/content/shared-auto/healthnews/dead/631103.html  

quote:

Do you then claim that, in countries who provide health coverage to all, no one dies? I find that unlikely.



Refer to the previous answer.

quote:

How many of those 44,000 could aford health insurance but just didn't bother getting it?



Hard to say specifically but about a third of those without health insurance choose not to buy it.  And isn't that all the more reason to let them die?

quote:

How many had terminal illnesses that even the best health care couldn't save?



None.  You see, that's what the study was about -- the number of people who died from preventable causes if they had proper medical attention.

quote:

It's a figure meant to inflame criticize and convince people that only the government can save them.  



My favorite argument in this whole debate is the one where people who are in dire straits are just supposed to turn to a charity for help.  

Ok.

Where is the charity that's going to pay for all of these people to get health coverage?  If such a charity exists it sure seems to be lazy.

But, you see, as the wealthiest nation on earth we're told we just can't afford to save 45,000 people per year.  But, somehow, somewhere, there are people who can afford to give to a charity that could solve this problem.  :shrug:

But, we can afford a trillion dollars to wade into an unjustified war with a country that didn't attack us.  Go figure.  It's all about priorities don't you know?  

quote:

No one denies health care reform is needed.



Then get out of the way and let us reform it.

quote:

No one denies that there is waste that can be eliminated, streamlining of the system that can be achieved, more control of insurance company prices through competitive pricing,



To be achieved how?

quote:

an honest effort at tort reform.



This is another one of my favorite arguments.  Doctors are performing unnecessary tests because they want to avoid lawsuits.  

If we assume this is true -- then the medical system (which I am constantly reminded is 1/6th of our economy) must employ massive amounts of unnecessary testing technicians and purchase tons of unnecessary testing equipment just in order to perform all these superfluous tests -- and if that's true -- and tort reform will end this -- then there will be millions of equipment makers and medical technicians unemployed by those meddlesome politicians who want to end Tort!  Socialism!  Communism!  Fascism! I wish you Republicans would stay out of the free market with all your regulations!

quote:

there are many ways in which health insurance premiums can be reduced to be more affordable to those who cannot afford it at the present time.



Name two.

quote:

The question is.....does that require a government takeover of the health care industry?



Nope.  And nobody in the Congress, Senate, or Whitehouse are advocating a government takeover of the health care industry.  (But you Republicans and your Tort thingie are sure getting pretty close there.)

quote:

DO we give a government that has never run any private business successfully without going bankrupt control over health care?



You know Mike, private business doesn't have a real good history of running business without going bankrupt -- can you think of any that have been around as long as the U.S. Government?

(I can -- Harvard College (a component of Harvard University), formally the President and Fellows of Harvard College (also known as the Harvard Corporation), is the oldest corporation in the western hemisphere. Founded in 1636, the second of Harvard’s two governing boards was incorporated by the Great and General Court of Massachusetts in 1650. Significantly, Massachusetts itself was a corporate colony at that time – owned and operated by the Massachusetts Bay Company (until it lost its charter in 1684) - so Harvard College is a corporation created by a corporation.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation)

Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


30 posted 10-04-2009 04:26 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     For that matter, Mike, my dad, who used to teach economics and marketing at the Hotel School at Cornell used to tell me that four out of every five businesses went under in the first five years.  Most private businessmen don't do so well at running private businesses either.

     The post-office was privatized, as I recall, because it was losing money.  The Republicans in office at the time said that if only it was taken private, it could be made into a thriving business that would make money.  That was done.  Now you and I are of an age, Mike, perhaps you remember that differently.  If so, please correct me on that.

     I don't see that privatizing the post office has brought in loads of dough.

     As for the trains, the other big privatizing experiment, that didn't work either.

     The problem with both was that the government forgot that both of them were utilities that needed subsidy, the way many governments subsidize them in other countries.  They provide useful services.  The Post office less so these days when a lot of mail is electronic, of course.  But trains are vital the the economy of the nation and to the transport of goods.  By refusing to put money into the train and rail system in the country and not expecting to make a profit from it, but to use it as a utility, we shifted our economy to a much heavier dependence on foreign oil.

     Some of these decisions should me made on the basis of policy and national interest and not purely on the basis of the marketplace, Mike.  I won't say that there isn't something to what you say, but the suitability of the sort of thinking one learns for private business is not always the sort of thinking that one needs for public business.

BK
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


31 posted 10-04-2009 05:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What does the constitution have to do with it Mike?

Beats me. Ask the ones who are demanding free  health care because it is their right.

And, yes, that was the point of the study -- not to prove that people with health insurance never die -- but that 45,000 deaths occur because of lack of health insurance specifically.

From the same article.....Not everyone agreed with the new findings, however. In a statement released Thursday, the National Center for Policy Analysis, which opposes nationalized health care, called the Harvard research "flawed."

"The findings in this research are based on faulty methodology and the death risk is significantly overstated," NCPA President John C. Goodman said. "The subjects were interviewed only once and the study tries to link their insurance status at that time to mortality a decade later. Yet over the period, the authors have no idea whether subjects were insured or uninsured, what kind of medical care they received, or even cause of death."


You are apparently willing to take the Harvard study as gospel (after all, it IS a liberal college with liberal professors) but not everyone does. The devil is always in the details or, in thic case, how they conducted the study and came up with their conclusions.

Hard to say specifically but about a third of those without health insurance choose not to buy it.  And isn't that all the more reason to let them die?

Actually, yes. We all bear our own personal responsibilities  and we are all personally responsible for the consequences. If a fellow buys a car, doesn't keep oil in it, same with water, and does no type of maintenance on it at all, when it breaks down, is it ok for him to come to you and demand another one? I realize that personal responsibility is becoming a thing of the past in this country but it's still valid.

But, you see, as the wealthiest nation on earth we're told we just can't afford to save 45,000 people per year.

Pssst...don't look now, LR, but we are not the wealthiest nation on earth. As a matter of fact we are broke, in debt up to our ears for decades to come, thanks to the fellow who wants to spend billions more that we don't have on a government health care takeover.

Then get out of the way and let us reform it.

You don't want to reform it. You simply want to take it over.

To be achieved how? (regarding waste elimination and competitive insurance)

Ask Obama. He claims that a large part of paying for it will be from eliminating waste. Apparently he is not interesting in eliminating it unless the government runs the whole show. As far as competitive insurance, let people shop on a national level for insurance. That will bring prices down immediately. Tc lightshat's the system congress uses. Funny how it works for them but it can't work for us. I can solve the health care issue with one statement to Congress... Give us the same insurance you have and we'll accept it. That's about as fast as you'll see a politician run, to get away from answering that one.

then there will be millions of equipment makers and medical technicians unemployed by those meddlesome politicians who want to end Tort!  

Man, that's weak. Are you saying then it's more important for these people to have jobs that the poor have insurance? How heartless of you!     Maybe we should have never switched to electric lighting. Think of all the candle-makers it put out of business!!!

Name two...

I  did. Competitive insurance and tort reform.

Nope.  And nobody in the Congress, Senate, or Whitehouse are advocating a government takeover of the health care industry.

Give my regards to Dorothy and Toto. Their plan is to do nothing less than takeover the system,

You know Mike, private business doesn't have a real good history of running business without going bankrupt -- can you think of any that have been around as long as the U.S. Government?

Nope....but, then again, I can't think of any who can simply raise taxes and squeeze more money out of the populace when they get in trouble. Harvard is your example? They have survived on grants and donations. You call them a business? You want to see the government successes?

The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775—you have had 234 years to get it right—and it  broke.
# Social Security was established in 1935—you have had 74 years to get it right—and it is going broke.  
# Fannie Mae was established in 1938—you have had 71 years to get it right—and it is broke.
# War on Poverty started in 1964—you have had 45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor"—and they only want more.
# Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965—you have had 44 years to get it right—and they are going  broke.
# Freddie Mac was established in 1970—you have had 39 years to get it right—and it is broke..
# The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our dependence on foreign oil, it has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion a year and we import more oil than ever before—you had 32 years to get it right—and it is an abysmal failure..


....and now you want to run health care....scary.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


32 posted 10-04-2009 06:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You want to look at how well this administration handles business? Check out the autopsy of the Cash for Clunkers program and what a fiasco that turned out to be and how the auto industries are experiencing in September the worst month of auto sales for almost two decades.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/IrwinStelzer/Seven-lessons-of-Cash-for-Clunkers_-failure-8162036.html


Those are the people you want running health care??????
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


33 posted 10-04-2009 06:50 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“Personally, I think a good reason for losing the Olympic games was the fact that Michelle and Barack forgot they were not speaking to Americans.”


I have to agree . . .
What parts of their speeches the media made available
sounded preachy and patronizing and wholly oblivious
to the difference in audience they were speaking to.
From a European perspective they were at best naïve
if not insulting.

.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


34 posted 10-04-2009 07:50 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Beats me. Ask the ones who are demanding free  health care because it is their right.



Ok... guess you haven't actually read the preamble to the constitution.  But, really -- who is demanding 'free' healthcare?  I've missed that somewhere.

quote:

National Center for Policy Analysis





That's a great scientific body to dispute Harvard isn't it?  Just another Heritage Foundation/Conservative (non)think-tank.  

Hey -- I think I'll start my own think tank -- I just need a few corporate sponsors to funnel some marketing money, um, I mean grant money -- so that I can help them sell their products....    

(BTW -- one of the hallmarks of unbiased journalism is they try to give two sides to the story no matter how lopsided the evidence is from the weak side -- to AJC.)

quote:

Actually, yes. We all bear our own personal responsibilities  and we are all personally responsible for the consequences. If a fellow buys a car, doesn't keep oil in it, same with water, and does no type of maintenance on it at all, when it breaks down, is it ok for him to come to you and demand another one? I realize that personal responsibility is becoming a thing of the past in this country but it's still valid.



No, personal responsibility is not a thing of the past -- but what you still fail to recognize is that it's possible to do everything right -- even buy health insurance -- and wind up on the outside looking in.

A person's cancer treatments can be denied because they forgot to put on their insurance application that they had acne when they were a teen, for example.

70% of those who go bankrupt due to medical bills actually had insurance Mike -- but they still can't keep their businesses, their homes, their cars -- or their jobs.

quote:

Pssst...don't look now, LR, but we are not the wealthiest nation on earth. As a matter of fact we are broke, in debt up to our ears for decades to come, thanks to the fellow who wants to spend billions more that we don't have on a government health care takeover.



I always knew you were funny Mike -- but this is really good material.  Let's completely forget about Reaganomics, Bush I, and Jr. edition -- and the balancing act done by your favorite former president from Arkansas.  

Now really Mike -- who bankrupted our government?  It just happened in the last 9 months?  Really?  Before that we were flush?

But I'm dodging the real point, just because you're funny Mike.  American isn't bankrupt.  The government is.  Take a look at where all the money in the world is. (Haliburton)

But it's nice of you to point out that our government has to borrow money from Communist China because we're too bashful to ask for it from our rich insurance company executives.

quote:

You don't want to reform it. You simply want to take it over.



Booyah! Would I ever!  Unfortunately nobody in Washington is talking about anything close to that though.

quote:

Man, that's weak. Are you saying then it's more important for these people to have jobs that the poor have insurance? How heartless of you!     Maybe we should have never switched to electric lighting. Think of all the candle-makers it put out of business!!!



The southeast would still be lighting candles Mike if FDR hadn't created the TVA and other Federal Electrical cooperative groups to wire it up.  

Tort reform is only going to get you 1 to 2 percent at the most.  Let's remember here -- one of the problems we have in the system is that health insurance companies are denying things like 'superfluous' tests (and treatments) prescribed by doctors.  You know -- those insurance company bureaucrats that are standing between us and our doctors.

quote:

As far as competitive insurance, let people shop on a national level for insurance. That will bring prices down immediately.



If you're trying to suggest that the Federal Government start regulating the insurance companies and actually applying the Sherman Anti-Trust laws to the insurance companies then I agree with you that would be a start.

If you're suggesting that the health insurance industry is going to magically start dropping rates because people can shop across state lines though you're dreaming.  Do you really think that BCBS in Illinois is going to underbid BCBS Alabama?

quote:

Ask Obama.



No, I'm asking you.  I know what the President has to say -- you hint there are alternatives to his prescription.  So, Doctor Mike -- do tell!

quote:

Give my regards to Dorothy and Toto. Their plan is to do nothing less than takeover the system,



Show me.  They can't even get a public option out of the Finance Committee.  Show me the takeover.  Show me the 'takeover'.  Even if there was a single payer system being proposed -- that's not a 'takeover' -- that's just medicare for everybody.

quote:

Harvard is your example? They have survived



Exactly -- they have survived while 'for profit' enterprise continues to crash and burn.  That's the example I want you to see Mike.

quote:

The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775—you have had 234 years to get it right—and it  broke.



Because it has a mandate Mike -- to service unprofitable routes.  FedEx and UPS don't have that mandate.  But I haven't seen the USPS trucks being repo'd either.  

quote:

Social Security was established in 1935—you have had 74 years to get it right—and it is going broke.



The SSA was flush with surplus until your boy Ronnie raided the lockbox and forgot to pay the money back.  Ever since the money has simply been on budget.  Oh-well.... so much for Reaganomics.

quote:

Fannie Mae was established in 1938—you have had 71 years to get it right—and it is broke.



Private company Mike.

quote:

War on Poverty started in 1964—you have had 45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor"—and they only want more.



A war with who as commander in chief?  Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Bush.  Nuff Said.

quote:

Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965—you have had 44 years to get it right—and they are going  broke.



Stellar examples of government gone right!  You see, Medicare and Medicaid only take the patients that private insurance companies don't want (the old and the sick and the poor) and still operate at only 6% overhead -- Doctors everywhere clamor to get Medicare patients too.

quote:

Freddie Mac was established in 1970—you have had 39 years to get it right—and it is broke.



Private company.

quote:

The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our dependence on foreign oil, it has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion a year and we import more oil than ever before—you had 32 years to get it right—and it is an abysmal failure.



  You do realize that this is a Department of the Executive Branch.  Run by Reagan, Bush, Bush for 20 of the last 32 years... as well as FEMA was run.  

Remember Ronnie's first act as President?  He took down the solar panels Jimmy had installed on the White House.  

You think these guys WANTED to reduce our dependence on Foreign Oil?  

You should look to sources besides Beck and Rush.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


35 posted 10-04-2009 08:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually, no hair on the heads of either Rush, Hannity or Beck were touched in my reply to you.

I'll answer you later. I don't want to put you through pain responding because I know your finger must be sore from so much finger-pointing. Hope it feels better soon.....
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


36 posted 10-04-2009 08:18 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well I have had one finger pointing towards outer space a lot -- but I do have a bit of trouble with the stitches on my posterior -- having laughed it off..  

Glad to know Rush's follicles in-particular are safe -- he doesn't have the healthiest crop up there, nor a lot of hair either.  
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


37 posted 10-04-2009 08:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

While you are recuperating, I'll give you a link or two..

"But, really -- who is demanding 'free' healthcare?  I've missed that somewhere."


We demand an end to the lack of adequate health care in our community and we demand free health care for the descendants of slaves in this nation. http://www.millionsmoremovement.com/about.htm

We demand free health care for all, cradle to grave. http://www.smartvoter.org/2000/11/07/oh/state/vote/fitzsimmons_m/questions.html

Those links, plus more....plus the hundreds of signs protesters have carried in parades on tv are a few of those things you must have missed somewhere..

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


38 posted 10-04-2009 08:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually, I can summarize your last post to one sentence..

"Everything wrong has been done by Republican presidents, from Reagan down." You could have just said that and saved a lot of typing.

Fingerpoint Lane needs to be repaved soon. It's been getting a lot of traffic lately
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


39 posted 10-04-2009 10:20 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Those silly people who think they are going to get 'free' healthcare from the government are in for a rude awakening. One of the proposals calls for personal expenditures of $5500 (combination of premiums and co-pays) before being eligible to receive a government subsidy.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


40 posted 10-04-2009 10:34 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

          You are the person who offered up the examples that LR was able to demolish so easily.  You were not very nice about it either.  Why is what he is doing finger pointing and what you are doing is ... what? ... innocent speculation that just happens to be accusatory without proper substance?  

     Please!

     As for your comments about Harvard, they are insulting and wrong.  One of the reasons they are wrong is that Harvard doesn't care whether it is left wing or right wing.  It really doesn't feel it needs to please almost anybody.  It is aware it is the 800 pound gorilla in American higher education.  It can give a Ph.D. to somebody who hasn't graduated High School if it wants, and it has, so the man could teach at Harvard.

     It doesn't care if a man is of the left or of the right.  If he has something they think is interesting and particular, they want him at Harvard and they will often get him.  And that includes in the JFK School of Government.  You may have to deal with a fair number of Liberal students, but you should prepare yourself for a shock, Mike, the more educated people get, by and large the more Liberal they turn out to be.  That may be simply the price of having to deal with a fair number of curious and bright people.

     This doesn't mean that conservatives aren't smart.  It means that there are fewer educated conservatives.

    I'm sure that you'd like to include, say, Henry Kissinger on your list of flaming radicals.  Half the high end business community and legal corporate law community has come from there.  Where do you think all those donations come from?

     As for research, it stands or falls on the basis of its methodology.  I haven't seen the study, and I won't pretend to weigh in on it one way or the other, but if you're suggesting that the folks at the School of Public Health or the Med school or just about anybody there faking his stats, I'd be prepared to bring some actual information to the table.  And if you think that they're about to fake data for political purposes, I think you'd better prove it or withdraw the claim.

     I took an Ed.M. at the Ed School there, and the statistics were very solid.  There were courses well beyond the intro course that I barely got through, and if you were doing doctoral work, you were able to consult with some of the best minds around.  They were interested in getting the data right, not in proving some liberal versus conservative contest.  Liberals weren't the only folks going through there.

     And there were faculty shared with the business school as well.  They were a clear thinking bunch.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


41 posted 10-04-2009 11:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

It means that there are fewer educated conservatives.

Bob, you are one of a kind...
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


42 posted 10-04-2009 11:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

the more educated people get, by and large the more Liberal they turn out to be

Undoubtedly, you have facts to back that up, being the man that always wants comments like that backed up with something factual.

If examples of your "educated liberals" are people like Gore, Kerry, Pelosi, Boxer, Reid and Frank, I would prefer to wallow in my ignorance, thank you.


I really have no idea where you are coming from. I checked back to see what I said about Harvard and it consisted of one sentence....

Harvard is your example? They have survived on grants and donations.

THAT is the comment that you choose to call insulting and wrong???? If you would spend less time telling me you like me and more time not being insulting or accusatory, it would be more believable. As it stands, you appear to look for any excuse at all to say something derrogatory. Please point out the insult you choose to chastize me for....or else, take a break.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


43 posted 10-04-2009 11:58 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Now how on earth could I have missed something as obscure as the 'Millions More Movement'?

Let's see what they have to say;

quote:

We demand full and complete Reparations for the descendants of slaves. We demand that America take the appropriate steps to help in the repair of the damage done from 300 years of slavery, 100 years of segregation, and 50 years of the misuse and abuse of governmental power to destroy Black organizations and leaders.

We demand an end to the lack of adequate health care in our community and we demand free health care for the descendants of slaves in this nation. The Millions More Movement will present a Preventive Health Care Plan to our people that will begin with a campaign to educate our people on healthy dietary, eating and exercise habits.

from Mike's link: http://www.millionsmoremovement.com/about.htm




Now... they aren't saying that health care is a basic human right (although if they were I would agree with them).  They're saying they're entitled to health care as quid pro quo.  Not unlike, say, a veteran saying he or she has earned health benefits.  Of course, on this issue I would not agree.  

Just to say that health care is a human right though as outlined by the preamble to the Constitution;

quote:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.



that doesn't mean that it is 'free' anymore than that the 'common defense' is 'free'.  Everyone has to pay for it -- based upon ability.  

Then of course there are the answers to questions posed by the League of Women voters of Ohio to write-in candidate Michael Joseph Fitzsimmons... yeah... um... :shrug:  don't know what to tell you about that Mike but it seems like you had to search deep for that one.  It would seem that you're illustrating that America does have a true 'left' and that the Democrats aren't it.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


44 posted 10-05-2009 12:08 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Now... they aren't saying that health care is a basic human right (although if they were I would agree with them). Then you would both be wrong. It's a basic human need but not a right.

I read the preamble and still did not find health care listed there. Is it hidden somewhere?

"From each, according to his ability, to each according to his need". I've seen that phrase before. Right, Ron?
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


45 posted 10-05-2009 12:18 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

There you go again Mike.  

Let's try this bit of socialism.  We have a tax system -- where people who use roads pay fuel taxes, people who earn income pay taxes (and secretaries pay more than Warren Buffet) but we all get the same Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines.

Now -- if Florida is being attacked do we tell them -- sorry -- you only get as many military personnel as you provide to the government to defend yourselves.  Same thing for equipment and roads-- only tax dollars that come from Florida can be used to defend Florida?

Or do we say that all of the resources available to the United States Government go to defend where the greatest need is for defense?

Same thing with other tax dollars -- and this is the funniest one in the book -- the red states -- you know the ones that are crying about socialism and communism -- they get more Federal dollars back than they put in -- in other words -- there is a giant sucking sound in this country from the blue states to the red states and all we get is complaints about socialism.

Totally unbelievable.

Now -- how do we ensure domestic tranquility and promote the general welfare?  Print posters?  What does that mean Mike?  Is your health part of your tranquility and welfare?
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


46 posted 10-05-2009 12:22 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:

"The findings in this research are based on faulty methodology and the death risk is significantly overstated," NCPA President John C. Goodman said. "The subjects were interviewed only once and the study tries to link their insurance status at that time to mortality a decade later. Yet over the period, the authors have no idea whether subjects were insured or uninsured, what kind of medical care they received, or even cause of death."

[bold]You are apparently willing to take the Harvard study as gospel (after all, it IS a liberal college with liberal professors) but not everyone does.[/bold] The devil is always in the details or, in thic case, how they conducted the study and came up with their conclusions.



     The text in "bold"  is my emphasis.


     My reaction is to the text I have designated in Bold above.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


47 posted 10-05-2009 12:58 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Is your health part of your tranquility and welfare?

Sure it is...so is my car and my big-screen tv. My job is certainly part of both. Will the government provide me with a job, if my unemployment runs out? THAT'S you reference to the preamble?  and you call ME stretching..???

As far as the blue state-red state misconception, I assume you are going to provide links to back up those assertions?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


48 posted 10-05-2009 01:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, you irritation, then, is that I called Harvard a liberal college with liberal professors? Well, according to you, since liberals tend to be much smarter than conservatives, you should take that as a compliment. Let's take a little peek at the last couple of people who have run this sterling college...

Lawrence Summers  served as the 27th President of Harvard University from 2001 to 2006. Summers resigned as Harvard's president in the wake of a no-confidence vote by Harvard faculty that resulted in part from Summers' conflict with Cornel West as well as a 2005 speech in which he suggested that women's under-representation in the top levels of academia is due to a "different availability of aptitude at the high end." Summers has also been criticized by some liberals for the centrist economic policies he advocated as Treasury Secretary and in later writings.[2] Since returning to government in the Obama administration, he has come under fire for his numerous financial ties to Wall Street. Lawrence Henry Summers (born November 30, 1954) is an American economist and the Director of the White House's National Economic Council for President Barack Obama.

So then Drew Faust takes over...

In the wake of a series of layoffs in June 2009, Faust drew criticism for her refusal to accept a modest paycut in an effort to save jobs. In the months preceding the layoffs, various campus groups called upon Faust and other administrators to reduce their salaries as a means of cutting costs campus-wide.[13] The Boston Globe reports that Faust made $775,043 in the 2007-2008 school year.[14]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Gilpin_Faust

Yep, I would say that's about as liberal as you can get, from Summers getting kicked out and now an Obama right-hand man to Faust, refusing to take a modest cut from her 3/4+ million dollar salary to help save jobs. Seems like my observation was pretty right on to me.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


49 posted 10-05-2009 01:13 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

What?  YOU?  Want a link?  The man who has conniptions when I post links?  Ok... sure:
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:ZmW9zKfxY8QJ:psweb.sbs.ohio-state.edu/faculty/hweisberg/conference/Lacy-OSUConf.PDF+red+states+get+more+federal+money+than+they+pay+in&hl=e n&gl=us&sig=AFQjCNGh3EBUKLf3WHX6z3yt1IfHPN3nlA

Start with that one.

Then this one:
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/publications/what_came_to_and_left_your_state_in_2005#table4

Nope.  Your TV set doesn't have a thing to do with domestic tranquility or the general welfare Mike.

The domestic tranquility part -- that was put in there in direct response to the Shay's rebellion.  This was a rebellion by veterans of the Revolutionary War that thought they went to war so that they didn't have to pay taxes.  (this is what Glenn Beck thinks when he tries to channel Thomas Paine -- who actually invented social security and universal health care).

But, when the framers of the Constitution met they wanted to make sure that the Federal Government had the power to put down such rebellions and put the stupid notion to rest that there weren't going to be any taxes -- that we fought a war so that we didn't have to pay taxes to pay for king's castles and foreign wars -- and could instead use the money to provide for our general welfare -- and that is that which edifies our nation -- be it education, commerce, healthcare, or whatever our generation decides is necessary.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> "The Anger of the Festering Fringe"   [ Page: 1  2  3  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors