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Passions in Poetry

Questions about ACORN

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Bob K
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150 posted 10-22-2009 03:30 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I watched the video.  There were problems with it.

     In the excerpts shown, the comments by the actress were mostly delivered off camera.  We have no way to establish that they were in fact said on film or not.  The replies that were explained the the narrator were not heard in the voice of the woman who was supposed to have been speaking them, though she was heard clearly in the Media Matters response video.  If the narrator has these clips, why didn't he allow us to hear them in her voice?  In a number of incidences, though the narrator says he ran out of tape at 26 minutes, he stops the tape at 10 minutes to explain what the ACORN spokeswoman is supposed to be saying.  If in fact she actually did say what he reports, why not let us actually let us hear what she did say?

     When he runs audio without time stamps, or stops video and allows video to keep playing,  he offers the undocumented illusion that the words being heard were recorded at the same time as the stopped video was recorded.  Yet he has, without notification, removed the evidence that this is the case.  While this is suggestive of duplicity, he does not address this at any point in his presentation.  The omission is glaring.

     You could march an army through the problems with this video, Denise, simply on the basis of internal consistency.  If the guy thought that leather blouse was bizarre, I suspect he's never been into a fashion forward boutique before.  If he thought that giving somebody a business card was compelling evidence, I suspect he's never been in business.  How often have you ever refused to offer somebody a business card at your place of business?  If nothing else, you would expect your boss would be upset with you for acting in an unprofessional fashion.  Goodness!
Bob K
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151 posted 10-22-2009 03:33 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




Dear Denise,

         Have you had a chance to check out the Washington Post Article in my post previous to yours, above?

     Sincerely, Bob Kaven

Denise
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152 posted 10-22-2009 07:08 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The audio was muted when the Acorn employee was speaking because Philly has a law similar to Maryland that requires consent, so they could only air the video, but not the audio. They are awaiting Acorn's consent to air the complete video with audio. But it doesn't really matter if they get it or not. The point of releasing the video, I think, was to show that the head of Acorn, and the employee and others lied in their interview with Media Matters when they stated that the subject of prostitution never came up, that they were thrown out of the office immediately, that they were disruptive while there so the police had to be called, etc.

But if Acorn contends the tape is deceptive all they have to do is approve the full release of it to prove it deceptive. I'm not holding my breath.

Yeah, I'd say her outfit was bizarre. She looked exactly like what she was pretending to be...a hooker. When you see someone dressed like that you know they are probably a prostitute. Regular folks don't dress like that, Bob.

Yes, I did read the article in the link you provided. I don't agree with Acorn's tactics and objectives.  
Bob K
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153 posted 10-23-2009 02:53 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     So, basically, it doesn't matter that the actress is shown with some sort of video running, but not her mouth running either, and with the freeze frame going.  You automatically assume there is no deception going on.    You seem remarkably trusting about  some things here, Denise.  The fact that recording without advance permission is illegal anyway isn't bothersome to you either.  Gosh.  And now you think signing away your constitutional protections is something you should do to give criminals a break when they're trying to blackmail  you.  So that you can sign away your rights to press charges against them from this sort of criminal invasion.

     Wow, thinking like that makes sense if you want to encourage this sort of criminal behavior, and if you want to give up your right to press charges in the long run, I suppose.  And if you want to give in to the sort of greasy criminal behavior that this seem to appear to be.  Myself, I'd rather see if I could get these jerks taken to court and sued within an inch of their lives for damages; and then, if possible jailed for whatever misdemeanor or felony the law in Maryland provides.

     If these people believe that ACORN broke the law or has acted badly, then they should go about proving it in a legal way.  Though it appears they believe they are above the law.

    
Bob K
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154 posted 10-23-2009 03:09 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Denise,

          Good to know that you don't agree with the goals of ACORN.  What I'd had in mind in offering the article were parts of it like this, which addressed a study by folks at the University of Northern Iowa

quote:


Looking at the 647 stories on the group that ran in leading newspapers and broadcast networks in 2007 and 2008, they found that not only did a majority of such stories focus on allegations of voter fraud but also that 83 percent of the stories that linked ACORN to those allegations failed to mention that actual instances of voter fraud were all but nonexistent.




     This is, of course, the exact opposite of the impression given by right wing news sources, such as some that you have quoted in these pages from time to time.

     This was one example of the material I had hoped you might have noticed.  Having pointed it out explicitly, I am curious what your reaction to it actually is.  I do not wish for you, however, to feel obligated to answer, and a change in topic would be understood as a graceful method of declining.  I would not take it amiss.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Denise
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155 posted 10-23-2009 03:42 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't know if it is considered criminal behavior as long as they don't release the audio prior to consent. I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the statute. Video is okay though.

I can't speak for the news organizations and broadcasting outfits, Bob. But I hardly think that claiming voter registration fraud is virtually nonexistent with regard to ACORN is accurate.
Bob K
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156 posted 10-23-2009 03:56 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


    Why not check?  In fact, the numbers are virtually non-existent vis-a-vis ACORN, Denise, they are virtually non-existant period.

     The panic  the excitement and the hoopla about them are very large.  The reality about them is very small indeed.
Balladeer
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157 posted 10-23-2009 04:45 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Exremely small....especially when one's mind and eyes are closed.....but, then again, logic is overrated, anyway.
Grinch
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158 posted 10-23-2009 05:01 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
But I hardly think that claiming voter registration fraud is virtually nonexistent with regard to ACORN is accurate.


I couldn't find a single case which resulted in ACORN being found guilty of registration fraud. Have you got some examples Denise? Mike?

.
Denise
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159 posted 10-24-2009 05:21 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-complete-guide-to-acorn-voter-fraud/

I shared this link earlier. It has lots of information of various investigations, charges, convictions, etc.

How many more would it take to not be considered virtually nonexistent?

I wonder how many ACORN 'employees' have to be convicted before people realize that there may just possibly be a problem with ACORN the organization?

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160 posted 10-24-2009 05:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Barack Obama was a key player in this organization, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, in the past. Obama trained its local leaders, represented the organization in court, and worked to funnel funds to the organization. The Obama campaign also donated $800,000 this year to an ACORN affiliate.

No chance, Denise. Criticism against ACORN is viewed as criticism against Obama in liberal eyes. You will get no acknowledgement from any lefties.
Grinch
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161 posted 10-24-2009 05:52 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I shared this link earlier. It has lots of information of various investigations, charges, convictrons, etc.


And yet Denise not one instance of ACORN being convicted of voter registration fraud.

quote:
How many more would it take to not be considered virtually nonexistent?


Well one would be a start. Two convictions of ACORN would suggest that the first wasn't an isolated incident and three or more would be persuasive evidence that ACORN was complicit in organised registration fraud.

So far though I see none.

Mike,

Denise won't get any acknowledgement that ACORN has been convicted of voter registration fraud from this Conservative either. That's got more to do with the fact that it just plain isn't true than what my political view is.

I don't think I'm unique in that regard.

.
Denise
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162 posted 10-24-2009 06:07 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Criticism is verboten, unless it's of Bush, Cheney, Rove, Limbaugh, Beck, Fox, the Teaparty Patriots, the Republicans, the CIA, the free market system, those who participated in the 9/12 March on DC, those opposed to the Democrats version of health reform, etc., etc., etc.
Denise
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163 posted 10-24-2009 06:10 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You seem to conveniently ignore all the 'employees' of ACORN who have been indicted and convicted, Grinch. Why is that?
Grinch
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164 posted 10-24-2009 07:23 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Why?

Because most of the employees were turned in by ACORN.

Is the US postal service automatically guilty of murder if one of its employees throws a wobbly and guns down 6 people in a crowded plaza? Heck no. So what kind of weird logic makes you believe that ACORN is automatically guilty of attempted voter registration fraud based on the fact that some employees were convicted of defrauding ACORN and attempting to register voters illegally?

What I find odd is the whole process of these allegations.

First you say ACORN is guilty of voter fraud. Until it's pointed out that they had no means to fraudulently affect the voting process. Then you reduce the charge to registration fraud, until it's pointed out that they haven't actually fraudulently registered anyone, so now you're looking for a guilt by association plea. What's next, stealing lollipops from babies?

So far you have no evidence, just a bag full of empty accusations. You're free to keep wheeling them out though - I'm more than happy to shoot them all down one by one.

Denise
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165 posted 10-24-2009 07:28 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Some States call it voter fraud, some call it voter registration fraud. I'll settle for fraud.

ACORN has a distinct knack for hiring workers bent on committing fraud. I wonder why that would be?
Grinch
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166 posted 10-24-2009 07:41 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
ACORN has a distinct knack for hiring workers bent on committing fraud. I wonder why that would be?


Err.. could it be the same reason why pen manufacturers have a distinct knack of employing pen thieves?

I don't know how to break this to you Denise but some folk are dishonest. Not only that they're opportunistic too. I'm pretty sure that if any of those dishonest ACORN workers happened to work at a pen factory their pockets would be stuffed full of writing implements come clocking off time.

.
Bob K
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167 posted 10-24-2009 08:56 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     ACORN, as are all organizations that register voters, whether it is for Democrats, Republicans, Greens or simply out of the goodness of their hearts, bless them, are required to turn over every form that their employees have filled out.  This is my understanding of the registration law as it stands.

     This provision of the law seems designed to keep, say, ACORN, from registering a wide number of people and then discarding all the voters who wish to be registered as members of The Green Party.  Under the impression they were registered, these folks might then show up at the polls and find they were not on the rolls.  Making sure that every form is turned in to the registrar means that this doesn't happen.

     These forms are all reviewed by the company responsible for running the local  voter registration effort. Some of the forms as they come in to ACORN or other headquarters, depending on the company running the effort, are obviously bogus, and are caught on a first inspection.  These forms are set aside and bundled.  They are turned in to the registrar by ACORN or whatever other company is doing the work because they must be, by law, and they are checked by the registrar because they must be, by law, to make sure that there really is no Dudley Doright at 1000 Bullwinckle Way in Frostbite Falls, MN.  While it seems pretty much impossible on the face of it, you never really do know, and if there is a real Mr. Doright, his civil rights must be protected.  Usually, though, Mr. Doright's presence in the "questionable" pile is justified.  ACORN or whatever other organization  usually catches most of these dubious registrations.  The registrars themselves will catch others.  As a further check, both parties will frequently station observers at the polls to make sure that any apparent instances of fraud are challenged.

     The "frauds" that the Republicans seem to be talking about, seems to be those registrations already bundled and presented as questionable by ACORN itself.  A look at the longer paper I quoted above will speak about that.  What we have here is a distortion of the facts.  I suspect that neither Mike nor Denise is aware of this, because the party is certainly not making a point of letting it be known.  The distortion, amounting to a lie by omission is simply fine by them; or else they might simply correct the untruth and stop spreading it.

     I haven't seen this thus far, and I don't assume it likely in the near future.

     The 30,000 felons that the Republicans are allowed to vote illegally in Florida are another story entirely.  That gets out of the realm of voter fraud, where people are trying to be registered to vote who aren't allowed to, and gets into the realm of election fraud, where people are being stricken from the rolls who have a legal right to vote for the benefit in this case of the Republican Party.

     Rather than me going off on the subject right here and now, I think I'd rather let people do their own research and thinking and, should they wish to discuss the issue further, bring the information back for discussion.  It seems simply a red herring at this point, though an interesting one.
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168 posted 10-24-2009 10:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The 30,000 felons that the Republicans are allowed to vote illegally in Florida are another story entirely.

I'm having a problem with the construction of that sentence, Bob. AS it stands, I can't make sense of it..
Bob K
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169 posted 10-24-2009 11:42 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     And so you should, Mike.  I should have proofread the thing and rewritten it.

     The Article that Denise posted made reference to a section on Florida.  It suggested that there had been a massive voter fraud allowing 30,000 felons to vote in Florida that were not legally allowed to vote there.  I suggested that this may not in fact be the case, but was likely to make reference to a case of  Election Fraud, where a massive number of Florida voters whose names where similar to names of convicted felons and whose voter registration was astonishingly almost entirely Democratic had been eliminated from the voter rolls. . . .   This was done by a company that was using data mining techniques that were, as I recall, somewhat dubious in nature.

     Greg Palast did considerable reporting on these stories, both in Print on and the BBC.

     There is lots of in depth reporting with references available, should you wish to check under Greg Palast, last I saw.  As I recall, we've discussed this before.
Denise
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170 posted 10-25-2009 07:10 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Allegations of voter fraud/voter registration fraud should be investigated thoroughly regardless of which side of the aisle it comes from.

Perhaps uniform regulations should be adopted that must be adhered to from State to State and Precinct to Precint, such as photo ID of some sort that shows you are an acutal citizen, and maybe some sort of verification issued to felons upon release that they have regained the right to vote if their State allows, that must accompany their voter registration card at the time of voting.
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171 posted 10-25-2009 08:36 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Allegations of voter fraud/voter registration fraud should be investigated thoroughly regardless of which side of the aisle it comes from.

I agree. There have been many such instances. Gore, for  example, did everything he could to get the absentee votes of servicemen overseas disregarded on a technicality because they knew they would be overwhelmingly pro-Bush.

Neither political party can claim holiness when it comes to election tactics.
Bob K
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172 posted 10-26-2009 01:13 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I've heard about that servicemen disqualification story before, but I've never actually seen any sources on it; do you have any, Mike?  It may be totally accurate, it may not be, but I don't hear even you suggest that it was illegal.  "A technicality" has also been known to cover a lot of range from, "Why even bother to bring this idiotic objection up?" to "What do you mean simply because a man died that he can't vote anymore?" and lots of gradations in between.

     Sometimes people don't bother to draw a distinction, as people have claimed for years was the case in Chicago in 1960, when it was proported that the dead in their tens of thousands rose from the grave, so moved were they by the righteousness of the Democratic cause.  To this day, there remains a quarrel about that.  I confess a deep split in that matter, for while I do sincerely wish to protest the honesty of The Democratic Party, there is something soul satisfying about the resurrection of the dead to ensure the election of John FitzGerald Kennedy to the office of The President of  The United States of America.

     There is a purity in the poetry of that.
 
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