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Questions about ACORN

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JenniferMaxwell
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100 posted 10-01-2009 10:17 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

No one’s charging you with anything, Ringo. All I asked for was a link. Looks to me like you’ve tried about every bluff in the book to avoid doing that and just so you know, that’s the really annoying part, the bluff.

Anyway, if you haven’t got the goods, no problem. Though false accusations are a sin in some people’s book, that biblical false witness thing, everyone makes mistakes. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you simply made a mistake.
Have a nice day!
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101 posted 10-01-2009 10:29 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Lol, you mean like the Democrats calling the anti-big government protestors Nazis, racists,  and terrorists, or Maddow calling the Tea Party participants 'teabaggers', Jennifer?

Ringo said he saw the Acorn folks, in person, with his own eyes. How can he give you a link for that?

As far as the guy getting beat up in the video link I provided, true it wasn't Acorn, but SEIU. Easy to mix them up, though, since they are joined at the hip. One is headed by one Rathke brother, the other by another Rathke brother, whom Michael referred to as the 'white guys' who were the leaders of Acorn. They were both with Acorn until the one was found to have embezzled money, whereupon he quietly left and went to SEIU.
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102 posted 10-01-2009 10:57 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Yes, of course.  A reference to The New York Times is nice.  The notion of one of its editors saying that it is is an elite Liberal media source deserves to be referenced as to which editor where and when he said it, and which publication that statement appeared in.  The acknowledgement of The NYTimes as being Liberal by people on the paper sounds a bit of a stretch, given the range of coverage it publishes, and the use of the word "elite" by an editor of the Times seems a bit out of character.  Many of us Liberals find the use of the word 'elite" used in describing us smacks of distortion and even propaganda; and for an Editor of the Times to agree to use it suggests that there's something odd going on that needs to be clarified.  It may be possible, but the way you've got it phrased here raises all sorts of red flags.

     Secondly, if you are going to reference the New York Times, I'd like to be able to check the article out myself.  Therefore it would be helpful for me to have enough of a citation to do so.  A link would be helpful if you can get one, but the date of the article would be helpful as well.

     Third, this is more announcement of prosecutions.  It says nothing of the value of the case or even of the constitutionality of the law it is brought under.  Why should Nevada wish to limit the number of new voters a person could register in a day when any false registrations are already wrong?  Does this seem to be a bit strange to you?  Because it does to me.

     I was always encouraged to vote when I reached 21, and here is Nevada trying to discourage people from doing so by limiting the number of voters a community organizing organization can afford to register.  This seems to be at cross purposes with those American ideals that I was taught as a child.  

     What your response does do is underline the avidity with which the Right is seeking to convict ACORN of voter fraud somewhere.  ACORN is mentioned often and in a universally negative light in the speech of the Right in both Houses of Congress, in the mouths of the  Right leaning talk show hosts, and in the mouths of the rank and file of those on the right.  The name is almost always attached to reports of convictions and allegations of illegalities and investigations.  The reports of the investigations are true, at lease some portion of them.  The allegations of illegalities have not been proven and as far as I know there haven been any convictions.

     And in the posting that I am responding to here, Ringo is suggesting the same general thing.  He is not stating it, he is suggesting it.  We are justified in whatever the Right choses to do to ACORN because of the certainty that at some future time ACORN will be proven guilty of something, which will justify this whole mess.  

     I would suggest that in this country we are supposed to punish people after a guilty verdict in a court of law.  The punishment does not come first.  You do not hang somebody then grant them a speedy trial.  Though that is what seems to be happening with ACORN.

    
JenniferMaxwell
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103 posted 10-01-2009 11:02 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“As far as the guy getting beat up in the video link I provided, true it wasn't Acorn”.

Thanks, Denise, hearing that from you makes me feel a lot better. I was beginning to think I was wrong and thus had belabored a point that had no merit.

Denise
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104 posted 10-01-2009 12:45 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Bob, it seems to me that Nevada merely forbids financial bonuses for registrations, not registrations themselves.

And you now understand what Ringo was saying to you as well, Jennifer, that he actually witnessed Acorn workers, in person, at a meeting, with his own eyes (no link necessary), and you also now understand whom Michael was referring to when he said the leaders of Acorn were white?
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105 posted 10-01-2009 02:49 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Any intelligent, respectful thoughts?


I have some thoughts.

quote:
The community activist organization Acorn was ordered Wednesday to stand trial on charges that it violated Nevada law by offering bonuses to employees who registered 21 or more new voters in any given shift.


And so they should, if there's enough evidence that they offered bonuses, and offering bonuses is illegal, a court is the correct place to settle the issue. If found guilty they will presumably face the normal punishment which will persuade them not to break the law with regard to offering bonuses in the future. If acquitted they'll hopefully be non-the-worse for their brush with the courts which, on a positive note, may at least send a clear message to others that law breaking will not be tolerated.

I'd say the same if the charges were related to voter fraud, if evidence is found that ACORN was actively involved in any case where a fraudulent vote was cast then they should be prosecuted. I haven't heard of such a case, but if one existed it should be settled by due process.

.
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106 posted 10-01-2009 04:16 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Here you go Bob:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/us/01acorn.html

.
JenniferMaxwell
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107 posted 10-01-2009 04:41 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Who do you consider to be the “top officers of ACORN”, Denise, (The words in quotes are Balladeer’s from #63.) and if someone is totally wrong about what they said they saw in one instance, as you pointed out, (trying very hard to put this nicely) then how confident would you be they were correct about what they claim to have seen in another?

Yes, I agree with you, Denise. As I understand it, it was paying the $5 bonus that was illegal. Honestly, I just skimmed the articles so indeed I could have missed something. Anyway, seems a bit silly doesn’t it, since it’s ok to pay the workers for doing the job, yet it’s not ok to give them a cost of a cup of coffee bonus for doing it well? And, as I mentioned, the whole case pales in comparison to the alleged fraud in the Sproul case. Here’s the link again in case you missed it.  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article499     2730.ece  
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108 posted 10-01-2009 05:53 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Fastest fingerpoint in the West!


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109 posted 10-01-2009 06:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Michelle Obama's old law firm is representing ACORN's board in an internal embezzlement case that legal experts say could result in criminal charges.

During the presidential campaign, Barack Obama and his running-mate, Joe Biden, insisted they had nothing to do with ACORN after the inner-city advocacy group became engulfed in controversy over voter-registration fraud.

However, federal election records showed that the Obama campaign paid ACORN subsidiary Citizens Services Inc. $832,598 for get-out-the-vote activities, of which $80,000 went directly to ACORN. CSI and some 290 other ACORN subsidiaries operate out of the same building on Elysian Fields Avenue in New Orleans that serves as ACORN's national headquarters.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=84434


Yep, Obama got them over 800,000.00, claiming the money was for lighting and video expenses. When called on it, he retracted that excuse and claimed it ws for their "get out the vote" campaign (obviously knowing where the votes they were getting out would go to).


Bonuses weren't given out to employees for  doing their jobs well...they were for doing their jobs badly....hence the thousands of fictional voters that were created.
JenniferMaxwell
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110 posted 10-01-2009 06:25 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Again, pales in comparison to the Sproul case:

“The career of Mr Sproul, a former leader of the Arizona Republican Party, is littered with accusations of foul play. In Minnesota in 2004, his firm was accused of sacking workers who submitted Democratic registration forms, while other canvassers were allegedly paid bonuses for registering Bush voters. There were similar charges in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Oregon and Nevada.

That year, Mr Sproul’s firm was paid $8,359,161 by the Republican Party, according to a 2005 article in the Baltimore Chronicle, which claimed that this was far more than what had been reported to the Federal Elections Commission.”

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111 posted 10-01-2009 06:31 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Point all you want, Jennifer, even when you have to go back five years to do it. It has nothing to do with ACORN's activities, as you well know. The smokescreen really doesn't work that well here.....
JenniferMaxwell
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112 posted 10-01-2009 06:51 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Speaking of smokescreens,how many years ago did the First Lady leave Sidley Austin?

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113 posted 10-01-2009 06:58 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL...travel down the sidestreets by yourself, J. I really have better things to do.

Go back to the maneating burger. That suits you better
JenniferMaxwell
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114 posted 10-01-2009 07:03 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Oh good, it must still be up. I thought I'd broken it.
Have a nice evening, Balladeer.
Denise
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115 posted 10-01-2009 07:58 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I took Michael to mean the Rathke Brothers, Jennifer.
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116 posted 10-01-2009 08:59 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Ah, I see, but haven't they both been gone from ACORN for more than a year or so?

Anyway, in a way I'm sort of glad things are coming to a head for ACORN. With strong, committed, trustworthy leadership, and I think Lewis meets that criteria, better trained local management and proper oversight, I think they could get back on track and continue to do the good work they were set up to do.
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117 posted 10-01-2009 10:01 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Not to my knowledge, Jennifer. The last I heard the one was still the head of Acorn (although I heard he applied to have the name changed, I think to International Assoc. of Community Organizations) and the other one, the embezzler, the one whom Lewis replaced, went to a top spot at SEIU.
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118 posted 10-01-2009 10:04 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     So, thanks for the citation for the New York Times article, Grinch.  Apparently the material on the Editor of the New York Times wasn't included in that article.  I had expected it would be.

     ACORN had turned in the folks who'd turned in the historically spurious votes in Clark County.  While the spurious votes were included in Ringo's comment, and thus gave the impression of wrong-doing, the fact that ACORN themselves had pointed out the spurious registrations — or at least many of them — first  alters the slant.  B y not offering this information, Ringo allows his readers to infer that ACORN was behind the deception and was hoping to put one over on Clark County.  With the addition of this information, events appear to show ACORN attempting to make sure that it was offering a good list to Clark County, and that ACORN had been taken in by some dishonest contractors.  That difference is significant and one that Ringo should have presented, had he wanted to present a fair version of his case instead of a slanted one.

     I made my comments about the nature of the law involved in the current brouhaha above.

     That someone might suggest that this was voter fraud — the registration of voters who are not eligible to vote — seems to me to be a stretch of the imagination.  The crime was the payment of a five dollar bonus for finding 21 new voters to register, not submitting false names for registration, something that as I understand it, is supposed to be checked further down the line in the registration process anyway.  This was apparently where ACORN picked up the spurious registration from the dishonest employees last year and where the Election board, doing further checks, picked up some additional.

     That would account for the fact, reported in the Time Article we are discussing, that ACORN picked up most of the bogus registrations but not all of them.   Perhaps someone else has more details about this than I do.

     In Ringo could let us know — myself and the others who are following this thread — where he got the information about that Editor from the New York Times, I would be grateful.
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119 posted 10-01-2009 10:43 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

          Are you actually throwing out cartoons calling folks names without specifying whom you are speaking about?

     Perhaps you might actually come up with some of that information on convictions?  You've been talking about the nastiness of ACORN, and you've been making allegations of voter fraud for quite a long time.  When asked to come up with examples of convictions I find you full of promises but no information.

     And now this spray of unpleasantness without point. What point you believes this makes I find to be mysterious and as near as I can tell unproductive in furthering any sort of rational discussion.  Why not simply make a point about the discussion rather than engage in Ad Hominem attacks directed at those who disagree with you?    You are substituting it for something reasonable and to the point that could further your cause or even lead you into new ground.

     I am not asking that you concede anything.  I'm asking that you use your energy to think through what you want to say.

     I've mentioned why I think ACORN is a particular Right Wing target, and why it's out of proportion with the amount of money that it accepts from the government.  I've mentioned why community organizing is a tactic that is one that the Right has difficulty with.  The extension of the Right's campaign to Unions at this point seems reasonably predictable to me.  While very flawed in many ways, Unions do address the power differential between workers and management/ownership.  The Right has been very effective against unions over the past fifty years or so.  I think that needs to change.  That is probably subject for another thread, though.

     Can you actually justify the campaign against ACORN on the basis of actual voter fraud that ACORN has been convicted of, as opposed to the things that the right is claiming about it without proof that has stood up to legal scrutiny.

     Can you, in fact, prove the actual existence of the rampant crime of voter fraud through the convictions against any organizations in large numbers, say more than fifty in the entire country over the past ten years?  That may actually be possible, but I'd like to see the convictions, and I'd like to know who they were against.

     Then, perhaps we can discuss the presence of election fraud, which I believe is an active problem in this country.
But first, the Republican and Right Wing issue in General is voter fraud; and I'd like to see if you can actually prove the existence of any large numbers of voter fraud convictions in this country.  There have been many cries of wolf, yes; but I'm asking about the confirmed counts of wolf pelts that all these years of voter fraud hunting have succeeded in putting on the Republican Walls in this country.

     How many are they, and where are the convictions that put them there?

BK    
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120 posted 10-02-2009 12:48 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, the voter fraud is a distant second to me in terms of importance. I despised ACORN when they used threats, coercion and intimidation tactics to force banks to give unsecured loans to people who had little chance of making payments. I despise them because they helped to create the flood of foreclosures and the damage to the housing and banking industries.

If you agree with those tactics and applaud  the fact that they caused thousands of people to lose their homes because they couldn't afford payments that they were never supposed to be able to afford and you can applaud the damage they did to the banking industry by forcing the unsecured loans on them through intimidation then I don't understand your way of thinking at all.

THAT'S what I want them to pay for. SInce they are never going to be held responsible for that, I don't care what the charges are that brings them down. I think of them like the feds felt about Capone, unable to get him for murder, kidnapping, protection rackets, and a shopping list of other crimes they took tax evasion to lock him away. If voter registration is the path, fine by me.

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121 posted 10-02-2009 03:36 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Then perhaps you might document the involvement of ACORN in the banking crisis, to start off with.  Try beginning by citing any offenses they have been tried for and convicted in in regard to banking.  Where and when have there been any such convictions?
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122 posted 10-02-2009 08:54 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Where and when have there been any such convictions?

Ah, Bob, if you want information on ACORN's activities with the banking situation and the tactics they used to force banks to give unsecured loans, the internet is loaded with them and I have little doubt you know that. If you don't want to take two minutes to look them up, that's fine with me.

No, there were no convictions and that's my point. Capone was not convicted for murder or racketeering, either. O.J. played a lot of golf for years after committing the crimes he "didn't commit". The feds had no qualms about putting Capone away for something as non-violent as income tax evasion and O.J. for his "stealing back my stuff" charade and I would have no problem seeing ACORN taken down for voter fraud, giving out "how to cheat on your taxes" guidelines, or anything else they are dumb enough to get involved in.
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123 posted 10-02-2009 11:00 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

You forgot Barney Frank, Balladeer. That’s what you usually say, the banking/mortgage crisis was caused by ACORN and Barney Frank. Just a gentle reminder for you and a little something to help Bob color in the picture.

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124 posted 10-02-2009 01:19 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


ACORN and the banking crisis.

Hmm.

I remember reading a very good article not long ago on that very subject. I didn't take much notice of it, I was researching something else at the time, but I'll try to dig it out this weekend. As I recall it suggested that ACORN had little impact on the banking crisis.

I'll let you know what I find.


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