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Questions about ACORN

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Bob K
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75 posted 09-30-2009 01:38 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



                                    
Dear Ringo,

           I understand your willingness to stand up for Fox News.  I was wondering what you might think of these articles.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Fox_News

http://trueslant.com/christopherthomas/2009/09/20/lies-liars-and-accountability-fox-news-is-having-a-bad-week/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News_Channel_controversies


     I have noticed that several sources, including the Wikipedia source above have mentioned the tendency for Fox viewers to be misinformed about the facts of the Iraq War.  This appears to be the result of Fox News coverage as well as editorial and opinion coverage.  Fox viewers seem to have gotten the notion that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, that the United States had worldwide support for invading that country, and that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11.  While these points of view were reported on Fox, and while the Fox reportage seemed to reflect the Republican party line, none of these assertions were true.

     At the extreme other end of the spectrrum, only about 10% of NPR  and PBS consumers shared these misconceptions.

     Other such information is laid out in the articles above.

     I don’t expect you to change your mind, but I do think that the information is solid.  I see nothing wrong with watching Fox on a regular basis for balance.  But it needs to be heavily supplemented to get some picture as to how much of a single minded point of view it does present.  Don’t subtract Fox, add a little NPR for protein.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Bob K
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76 posted 09-30-2009 02:10 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

           I do believe you're trying to call me racist.  How quaint.

I'd be interested in hearing you describe the demographics of the two parties without reference to appropriate identifiers, but I confess I await your attempt with bated breath.  To name a difference isn't to freight that difference with excess baggage.  To call you crusty doesn't mean that I don't feel affection for the occasional crusty guy.

     As a former drug and alcohol counselor,I'd like to point out  there can be a difference between  somebody who takes a drug medicinally and somebody who takes it recreationally.  Cocaine has a small but important place in our pharmacopeia.  It is mostly used as a topical anesthetic.  It doesn't work particularly well as an analgesic — not at all, as far as I know, and in its standard form it's function as a stimulant makes it a frequent subject for abuse.  IUn its original form, leaves of the coca plant chewed with (if I remember correctly, some sort of lime) it releases a much more manageable level of stimulant into the system and is more difficult to abuse.

     I should be very surprised indeed if one of your physicians had prescribed cocaine for you.  I doubt that you would qualify as a coke-head at all.  While in pain, it is very difficult to get addicted, as I understand it.  If the drug is continued and not tapered off as the pain becomes more bearable, then addiction may be possible.  This happened a fair amount after the civil war, when we were still unclear how to use opiates and hypodermics and a tidal wave of morphine addiction hit the country.

     The first really big weapon in fighting morphine addiction, by the way, was a new wonder drug from Bayer, and it was close to 100% effective in combating the ravages of Morphine addiction.  It is still as effective today, though folks have discovered that there may be reasons to be more careful than was originally thought when prescribing heroin.

     Oxycontin for Rush, I haven't heard about coke myself.  That may have gotten by me, or it may be a mistake.  I had heard about alcohol for Beck.  As far as I know, though, both guys are in remission with their addictions.  If they can stay sober the way they're acting, more power to them.  I'd have trouble actually believing it, but it may well be true.  With this sort of thing, I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt.  Take your meds as prescribed, you'll heal faster.  Talk to your doctor about cutting them back as the pain decreases; he or she is the one who actually is following the case.

     If you feel funny about my description of the demographics, take a try yourself.  Mine is accurate.

BK
Denise
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77 posted 09-30-2009 06:25 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

To my knowledge, Jennifer, the only violence at any of the town halls was perpetrated by Obama's buddies from SEIU after he put the call out to them to tell opponents of his big government power grab to shut up and get out of the way.
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78 posted 09-30-2009 08:08 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Bob- I acknowledge that there are sloppy reports in every media outlet. It is, however, my viewpoint that Fox News (not the broadcast, but the cable channel) is the most fair in its reporting. It is not only my viewpopint, but that of millions of others as well.
As for the sources. Wikipedia is not an accepted reference in reporting (it isn't supposed to be anyhow), and is not accepted by the very vast majority of the teachers that I have talked with (and I talked with a great many before becoming an education major with my return to school). As such, I cannot accept it as a reliable point for this discussion.
The sourcewatch site is, I must admit, is a new one for me. I looked at the site extensively, and not just at the link you posted (which I did read, btw) and it seems to be nothing more than a political Wiki. As there is no moderator as such, and it is a "collaborative" site where anyone can post anything, I cannot accept it, either (again, using my professor's and my kids' teachers criteria).
Both sites seem to be properly researched, and annotated. That is to be respected. In order to accept the artiocles as viable, though, I would have to do the research on every source cited (well, at least a few) and I just plain do not have that time this morning (I am getting the kids, my girlfriend and I all out the door in about 15 minutes). I will check out the sources later this evening, and weigh back in.
With the trueslant site... it actually appears to be as unbioased as any, with both conservatives and liberals being represented.
The article did make some good points... one small issue, though:
ALL broadcasting companies direct segments of what they shoot to include on their various reports, from the nationals all the way down to the local outlets. It is done to make the shot better and more usable. Not every report, not every time; however, to point out that Fox News is doing it and to deny that (getting back to your original question) ACORN or the liberally-biased media outlets don't get as many purple shirts in the shot as possible is joining the fray of pointing fingers to take everyone's eyes off of your side of the argument(which we all do, unfortunately).

Jennifer- Jennifer, Jennifer, Jennifer...
There is absolutely nothing I, or anyone else who does not accept your scope of the world as being absolute can do to to get you to pay attention and to stop arguing, as opposed to discussing the facts. Absolutely nothing.

I actually attempted to assit you in making your points by showing you how the words and videos you were using are working against you, and you resorted to personal attacks. If you had truly read the post I made about the ACORN actions at the town hall meetings, then you would have remembered that &I& saw the ACORN people being lead through the back door... it wasn't Memorex, it was LIVE.
As for the video of the T-Shirt vendor being attacked, Denise posted the links after you asked for it, and yet, you are still attacking me for not posting them, and calling my credibility into question. The rest of the thread had moved on, and you insisted on going backwards and bringing up old news in the weak attempt of murking up the waters and getting us off topic.
A great many of the people on your side of the isle (by no means all) have the same tendency to do that. Even your lovely and talented Ms. Maddow. The discussion has moved along into new territory, and you go back to post 16... the rest of us are way up here in the 70's... how about you hop on the wagon and come on in forthe big win. You have already lost.

And that's the way it was, Wednesday, September 30, 2009..... Good Day.
(with apologies to the appropriate deceased newscaster.)

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "WHAT A RIDE

Denise
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79 posted 09-30-2009 08:46 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Interesting article regarding Acorn, SEIU and Obama:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjljYzYyMDhlY2Y4MTRhZTI4NGQ5OGVlMGE5YmIzYTI=

As to Ms. Maddow, in my opinion she is a good example of a high-priced education and intelligence being wasted.
Bob K
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80 posted 09-30-2009 12:18 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Ringo,

          Thank you for the solid response.  Your criticism of Wikipedia or any other open source reference is well taken, as might be inferred from attacks upon Wikipedia articles by hackers within Fox News itself.  See the references within the Wikipedia article.  They are worth checking out.  The antidote, as you suggested in your response, is actually to look at the references cited and do your own evaluation of them.  Your willingness to do so determines to a great extent your critical thinking skills.  

     There is no reason for you to accept Wikipedia as a trustworthy source without an examination of its sources and the integrity with which it uses them and the honesty of the logic it applies in drawing conclusions from them.  I would not have it otherwise.  I would rather you do examine these things and make your evaluation of exactly where and how far you can trust this source and every source.  There will be places where you will find that they can be taken to the bank and places where their information will seem bogus, and if you could predict where, you'd qualify as a bona fide psychic.  Certainly check out the references.

     Then apply the same standards to your other news sources.  NBC, CNN, The New York Times and, oh yes, Fox as well.  Keep reading and watching Fox, simply evaluate them with the same eye that you'd turn on any other source.  I'm not speaking of the editorial Fox, which as you've said, you understand to carry a bias.  I'm speaking of the Fox that you feel is fair and balanced, the news reporting Fox.  Evaluate them with the same curiosity that you'd investigate the other news reporting organizations.  

     Perhaps that feels like too much of a burden for a busy man.  Perhaps it is.

     But I ask you to consider the misinformation I spoke about that Fox viewers seemed to share about the Iraq War and about 9/11.  Correlation  and causation are not the same, as a man now returning to school will now know.  But there does seem a high correlation between viewers of Fox and holders of these pieces of misinformation.  And a low correlation between viewers of  Public Broadcasting (and listeners to National Public Radio) to these same pieces of misinformation.

     While you dealt with a number other things I said in my posting, you didn't deal with that.

     I applaude your critical thinking, even when turned in this direction.  If I can't be critical of myself, especially against decent questions, I'd be a pretty poor Liberal.  I'd also be a pretty poor Liberal if I told you to stop reading or thinking about any source, no matter how much I disagreed with it.  My interest would be and is in both of us getting information and broader points of view from which to consider the world.

     Sincerely, Bob Kaven



    
JenniferMaxwell
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81 posted 09-30-2009 12:43 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Ah, I see, Ringo, the videos you saw with your very own eyes that DIDN’T show ACORN workers doing ANYTHING (as I pointed out to Denise) are YOUR proof that ACORN members DID do the things you accused them of. How silly of me not to see what really wasn’t ever there.  Sort of like when Balladeer pointed out to Bob, “that top officers of ACORN are, guess what?, white.”, I looked at pics of Bertha Lewis and Maude Hurd and dang it all, missed the proof that isn’t there again!

“As to Ms. Maddow, in my opinion she is a good example of a high-priced education and intelligence being wasted.”
I suppose one could come to that conclusion when an under-educated, airhead like Wink Wink Palin gets the VP nomination and all Rachel gets is a talk show.
Bob K
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82 posted 09-30-2009 01:15 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Denise,

          I read the article in The National Review.  It seemed to say that a group of people on the left had interests in social justice and community organization.  When one of them became President of the United States, he thought one of the others would supply interesting advice.  Do I have this approximately right?

     George Washington was a Freemason.  When he became President, he depended on a number of other Freemasons for advice, including Ben Franklin.  There are masonic symbols all over the U.S. Capitol and imprinted in its currency.  Is this significant?

     Or is it possible that each drew strength from people whose ideas were similar?

     We could do the same sort of connect the dots game with the right wing as well and with the people who went to Yale.  Or with right-wing people who serve of the boards of directors of the top 100 corporations in the country, and the number of those who've gotten appointed to various political posts.  It is a brain-painful pursuit.  

     Your ability to judge whether Rachel Maddow's education has been wasted would be limited by your understanding of the purpose of the Rhodes Scholarship and your understanding of why she was selected for it.  

     As for her brain, do you feel that the intellectual underpinning she offers is not well documented?  Do you believe that her facts are not sourced?  Are the connections not firmly established in the chains of her reasoning?

     Where, other than the fact that she obviously disagrees with you on almost every political issue one might name, might you point to any defect?  And why does this mean that her intellect is wasted if it leads to conclusions other than your own, for goodness sake?  She is allowed to be bright, educated, competent and more liberal minded than you in my book without deserving this sort of ad hominem attack.


Yours, Bob Kaven
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83 posted 09-30-2009 01:52 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yep, Balladeer, I wasted my time and watched the video. Indeed there will always be fringe elements cranking up hatred with ridiculous accusations, comparisons and threats.

Sure there are but that isn't the point. Rhodes scholar Rachel sees fit to go on the air blasting conservatives for derrogatory gestures against Obama or, more importantly as she puts it, any president of the Unted States. She called that type of action dangerous, violence-inciting and un-American. Comparing a president to Hitler, or calling him a Nazi, is very detrimental to the country. The video shows her hypocracy in full detail. Did she have a problem when Bush endured the same? Did she mention on her show or anywhere else that THAT was detrimental and dangerous to the country? If you can find it, let me know....but don't waste your time looking for it. Of course you didn't get that message from the video....you ignored it in the same way you ignore anything else that goes against your comments. I DO agree that watching Rachel is a waste of time, though. We can agree on that
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84 posted 09-30-2009 02:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

    I do believe you're trying to call me racist.  How quaint.

No, Bob, I'm not calling you a racist at all. You did a good enough job of that without my help with your comment. Actually, to be fair, you didn't call yourself a racist. You simply called anyone against ACORN racists. How quaint.

I'd like to point out  there can be a difference between  somebody who takes a drug medicinally and somebody who takes it recreationally.

Tell that to Jennifer. She seems to be confused on that issue.

I should be very surprised indeed if one of your physicians had prescribed cocaine for you.  I doubt that you would qualify as a coke-head at all.

I would be  as equally surprised. I would be as equally surprised  if Limbaugh's doctor prescribed cocaine for him.

Oxycontin for Rush, I haven't heard about coke myself.

Neither has Jennifer, which doesn't stop her from calling him a coke-head anyway in her standard way of lashing out with  vile insults at the drop of a hat. If Rush, or any other human being, had a problem becoming addicted to a pain killer over a period of time, they have my sympathy. I am facing the same fear myself, having been on them for months now and wondering how it will be without them. Maybe I, myself, will become one of Jennifer-s coke-heads. I hope not.

If you feel funny about my description of the demographics, take a try yourself.

Bob, I have stopped feeling funny about any of your descriptions. I simply take them for what they are worth.
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85 posted 09-30-2009 02:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Where, other than the fact that she obviously disagrees with you on almost every political issue one might name, might you point to any defect?  And why does this mean that her intellect is wasted if it leads to conclusions other than your own, for goodness sake?  She is allowed to be bright, educated, competent and more liberal minded than you in my book without deserving this sort of ad hominem attack.

Change the "liberal" to "consevative", and Limbaugh and Hannity are also allowed. It's strange that you would rise to the defense of a liberal talk show host, chastising people for attacking her, with the comments you have made on multiple threads against Limbaugh and Hannity. It's the same selective criticism we have come to expect. Maddow showed an example of it on  the link  I gave to Jennifer which caused he to waste her time.
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86 posted 09-30-2009 03:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

WDBO Local News
Alan Grayson says Republicans want you to die!
By
Mike Synan
@ September 30, 2009 5:50 AM Permalink | Comments (42)

Our freshman Congressman made that statement on the floor of the House last night, and it's sending shockwaves through Congress. Watch video below
It's something he's said before in group settings, but never in such hallowed place as the US Capitol on the House floor.

"This is what the Republicans want you to do. If you get sick America, the republican health care plan is this: Die quickly!"

http://wdbo.com/localnews/2009/09/alan-grayson-says-republicans.html

Soemone mention fear and hate mongering lies?

Considering Congress went ballistic over Wilson's YOU LIE comment, to the point of censure and everything else they could do to show their outrage, why have they nothing to say about this?  Let me guess....this was belted out by a Democrat, which makes it a sensible and informative comment.  Grayson was asked to apologize for spewing such garbage. He refused. Democrats don't apologize.

Fear and hate-mongering at it's best.......democrat-style.
JenniferMaxwell
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87 posted 09-30-2009 07:18 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

That reminds me, has Palin ever apologized for her "Obama's death panel" remark? I think she edited her remark a bit, but did she ever actually apologize to Obama?
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88 posted 09-30-2009 09:10 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

quote:



Dear Mike,

          I take it you haven't yet checked out J.M. video reference?

     It it seems all right for you to point fingers but not for anybody else.  You can say that ACORN is guilty of voter fraud and all sorts of things, but when others point back you find the position difficult.  Curious.

     You have not cited any convictions that ACORN has suffered, though Republicans have been trying to sink the organization since 2002.  The investigations have petered out, and there is no evidence of voter fraud by ACORN while the evidence for election fraud by the Republican Party, which we have discussed before, is large.

     You have demonized ACORN.  Its job is to register voters and the majority of the voters it has registered seem top be young.  Many of them are people of color.  These facts alone seem to be enough to account for the difficulty the Republicans have with ACORN since the Republican demographic is older and white.  Where are all these myriads of voter fraud cases, Mike?

     Could it be that they don't exist or that their numbers are so small that have no effect at all?

     More important than the cases, show me the convictions.  Show me cases where the Republican have actually proved their case.  Show me the myriads of cases that the Republican Justice Department was able to push to successful conclusion over eight years in power that would prove your point.    Give me citations from good sources that prove it.  Beck backed by O'Reilly supported by Hanity doesn't actually seem to be the most dependable chain of sources that one could hope for.  How about The Christian Science Monitor or the Economist or The Washington Post?

BK



     Since you have pretty much dodged responding to my earlier post on ACORN and your accusations about it in favor of personal attacks on me and now of Ms Maddow and of course JM, I thought it might be helpful to refocus a bit.  The endless supply of new and more distant accusations seems to have lead us away from the focus of the thread, which was to examine the truth of some of the accusations about ACORN.  I have responded above to some of the accusations you have leveled with some frequency at this organization.  Rather than changing the subject to racism in the hope that I as a good liberal will drop what I'm doing and go after it, why not deal with the points that I bring up above.

      Rather than painting me or J.M. as unworthy to ask you to justify your accusations, why not simply answer them.  Our worthiness to ask legitimate questions is a red herring anyway.  The questions themselves demand the answers regardless of who asks them.  By not answering or at least saying that you are not going to answer, you do not affect my credibility, such as it may be, at all.  You simply call attention to your omission.

     And since you have be reasonably persistent in making the various accusations about ACORN, I would imagine that you would be eager to display from good first rate sources those places where ACORN has had all those arrests and investigations and especially convictions.  I would also like you to bend all your research skill to answering all your research skills to answering the question, how many cases of Voter Fraud have been brought to conviction over the last eight years versus the number of cases that have been brought?

BK

Bob K
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89 posted 09-30-2009 09:17 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:


No, Bob, I'm not calling you a racist at all. You did a good enough job of that without my help with your comment. Actually, to be fair, you didn't call yourself a racist. You simply called anyone against ACORN racists. How quaint.




     Please cite that for me.  I said no such thing.
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90 posted 09-30-2009 09:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The endless supply of new and more distant accusations seems to have lead us away from the focus of the thread, which was to examine the truth of some of the accusations about ACORN.

Apparently it's been so long since the beginning, you don't recall what the focus of the thread was. What it was was your getting a fund-raising letter comparing Fox talk show hosts' coverage of ACORN as opposed to their coverage of Haliburton and other scandals of the past. I responded in reply #30, which was not acknowledged and that's ok.

I DID respond to Jennifer's left wing video. Perhaps you missed it.

how many cases of Voter Fraud have been brought to conviction over the last eight years versus the number of cases that have been brought?

Louisiana and California have joined the dozens of states that have issued investigations and charges against ACORN. You want convictions? Stay tuned........

Please cite that for me.  I said no such thing.

"Many of them  (ACORN) are people of color."
"the Republican demographic is older and white"
"These facts alone seem to be enough to account for the difficulty the Republicans have with ACORN "

You do the math......

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91 posted 09-30-2009 09:47 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Balladeer, if you'd actually watched or paid close attention to what was in the videos, you'd know the exact number of voter registration fraud convictions.
Care to take a wild and crazy guess?

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92 posted 09-30-2009 10:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Jennifer, you are going to talk to me about paying attention to videos??? Please.....

As far as convictions are concerned, I'll respond the same way I responded to Bob....stay tuned.
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93 posted 09-30-2009 10:05 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Shhhhh, I'm taking a break, doing some serious stuff.
http://www.zaiusnation.com/whackawingnut/index.html
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94 posted 09-30-2009 10:41 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Mr. Grinch,

I had read that particular report before I made my first comment.

As I said, you can argue anything you want in a Court of Law. Even more so outside a Court of Law.  I try to keep politics out of my legal reasoning and not rely on others but my own legal reasoning based upon legal precedent.  I still feel comfortable in my analysis.

Had Congress cut funding to Haliburton, my opinion would be the same.  I doubt the same would hold true on those now arguing the existence of a bill of attainder.
(As long as the case doesn't go to the Ninth Circuit)
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95 posted 10-01-2009 12:21 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

First of all... Bob, please check your e-mail.

Jennifer... once again, you are attempting to muddy the waters with false quotations about thigns I said. You know they were false, the entire populace keeping track of this knows they were false, and yet, you did it anyhow.
Then, you- once again- refer to personal attacks about someone who had not been brought into the discussion at all, and who has NO CHANCE AT ALL of affecting anything that happens in the government, having lost the election, and not being involved in governing at all.
Once again, these are the last ditch efforts of someone who is seeing their side of a discussion being blown into smithereens by the facts of a case, and by people who are speaking civilly, and respectfully to one another about their opinions. IF you will look back upon the thread (which you seem to be really good at) you will notice that no one else is actively and blatantly involving themsleves in such outright shenanigans. Mike has been accused of calling Bob a racist (respectfully), and he (again, respectfully) responded to the charges... and you continue to be disrespectful and argumentative...
Get a clue, Sweetheart.

As for your question to Mike... uh... wait, I need to check my source to ensure proper wording...
quote:
Balladeer, if you'd actually watched or paid close attention to what was in the videos, you'd know the exact number of voter registration fraud convictions.
Care to take a wild and crazy guess?

Well, MS. Maxwell...
I am going to allow you to "waste your time" with the followiing links.....
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/us/01acorn.html  http://www.judicialwatch.org/.../acorn-criminally-charged-nevada  [URL=http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2009/08/19/nevada-acorn-director-guilty-acorn-voter-fraud-august-19-2009-las-vegas-director-guilty-christopher-edwards-will-testify-against-a corn-]http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2009/08/19/nevada-acorn-director-guilty-acorn-voter-fraud-august-19-2009-las-vegas-director-guilty-christopher-edwards-will-testify-against- acorn-[/URL]  amy-busefink-former-regional-voter-registration-director/ http://www.docstoc.com/docs/5806659/Nevada-v-ACORN

Convictions? No... however, the Attornety General of Nevada feels that there is enough to send them to trial.

To quote Mr. Balladeer...
Stand by for the convictions.


Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "WHAT A RIDE
Bob K
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96 posted 10-01-2009 01:34 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




Dear Mike,


1)
quote:
:

No, Bob, I'm not calling you a racist at all. You did a good enough job of that without my help with your comment. Actually, to be fair, you didn't call yourself a racist. You simply called anyone against ACORN racists. How quaint.



To which I replied:
     Please cite that for me.  I said no such thing.


Your reply was:

quote:


"Many of them  (ACORN) are people of color."
"the Republican demographic is older and white"
"These facts alone seem to be enough to account for the difficulty the Republicans have with ACORN "




     None of these statements call anybody a racist.  Each one is a statement of demographic fact.  You may have difficulty between distinguishing, apparently, between descriptions of demographic fact and what the significance of those facts may be.

     It is not racist insofar as I can tell to understand that if people in the minority do not organize in their own interests, they will remain in the minority.  It is not racist to recognize the people in the voting majority will be threatened if the new voters are not of their party and do not agree with their politics.  The fact that the majority of voters were white and are now having large numbers of people of color added to their ranks is not a racist statement either.

     Perhaps you might locate for me exactly what is racist about what I said instead of simply pretending it is racist.
I have in fact done the math, Mike, and it doesn't add up.

     Your words were

quote:

You simply called anyone against ACORN racists.



     They were not, You may have said something that might have been interpreted by somebody on a bad day to possibly to have meant such a thing, were they in a sour mood and inclined to interpret you as closed minded in every possible way.  They were not, You might have approximated such a statement.  They were unforgettably,

quote:

You simply called anyone against ACORN racists.



     Please show me where I used those words.

     I'm eager to see this, because I don't believe them to be true.

     Oddly, if you'd asked me whether I thought I was a racist, I would have said, Yes, that I was brought up that way, and that I was doing my best to be aware of it and to change it in myself as I saw it show up.  But you didn't.  Please feel free to accept that admission as a freebee.  It's on the house.  I hope that I do better with it as I get older.

2)
Bob asked:
quote:

how many cases of Voter Fraud have been brought to conviction over the last eight years versus the number of cases that have been brought?



Mike replies,
quote:

Louisiana and California have joined the dozens of states that have issued investigations and charges against ACORN. You want convictions? Stay tuned........



     So if I understand the answer correctly and can translate it into plain English, There's been a lot of effort on the Part of the Republicans to torpedo ACORN by bringing investigations an prosecutions against them.  They have instituted a full court press from as many directions as they have been able to do so, and for as long as they have been able to do so, and have been promising a flood of convictions now for years.  They are now continuing to promising a flood of convictions and are talking as if they already have them, but they don't.  Many of the investigations may indeed be on shaky ground, and may have been linked to the wave of firings of Justice department lawyers last year when these lawyers felt their cases did not have evidence to back up these cases that they were being pressured to bring by the Bush Justice Department.  This is apparently detailed in the new book coming out by the former Arizona Federal Attorney.

     Future promises offered are not the facts requested, facts which you have from time to time suggested meant that ACORN was an organization that was beyond the pale and should not be given serious attention as a group of community organizers.  Where are all these convictions?  Where is all the fire that you claim to be there?  Anybody can make charges; it takes more than a lively imagination in this country, one likes to think, actually to prove them.

     How many charges were made; how many were proved; how many convictions resulted?

     For somebody who seems so sure of the depth of the evil one confronts in looking at ACORN, I am puzzled why you refused to supply the information.  Unless the information falls far short of the hype you've supplied us.  Or that your sources have supplied you, which is probably closer to the actual situation.

BK


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97 posted 10-01-2009 06:29 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Anybody can make charges; it takes more than a lively imagination in this country, one likes to think, actually to prove them.

That's true, Bob. And you know what they say about the wheels of justice....stay tuned.
JenniferMaxwell
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98 posted 10-01-2009 06:33 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell


Ringo, when I asked you for links to the videos, you never responded. Denise was kind enough to put up links but none of those videos seemed to show what you allege you saw:

"I have seen the video of ACORN supporters beating a black man for selling t-shirts outside of a town hall meeting; I have seen with my own eyes ACORN members being led through a side door of a town hall meeting where the "regular" citizens were being pushed out the door,"

Put up the links now, point out the frames that show “ACORN supporters beating a black man for selling t-shirts”. Show us you’re not just part of the smear ACORN campaign.  

“Convictions? No”
There you go, Balladeer. You can copy off Ringo’s homework. ACORN has never been convicted of committing “voter fraud”.

The Nevada case - sorry but I’m really not too outraged by the fact that ACORN workers got a $5.00 bonus for registering 21 people or more per shift. Kind of pales in comparison to the Sproul case, don’t you think? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4992730.ece

Ringo
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99 posted 10-01-2009 08:00 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

As it is primarily only the four of us agruing, and as this thread has fallen to the level of "You said/I said"... I am going to head back to the original purpose of the thread.... talking about ACORN, and declaring a general amnesty and cease fire. I am hereby announcing that I will no longer answer to any charges of anything, and will not reply to any personal threads.

Now then:
The New York Times (a liberal elite media source, by one editor's admission) has stated:
quote:
The community activist organization Acorn was ordered Wednesday to stand trial on charges that it violated Nevada law by offering bonuses to employees who registered 21 or more new voters in any given shift.
Under Nevada law, it is illegal to attach incentives to voter registration work, in part because doing so gives canvassers a motive to submit fraudulent forms, of which there were thousands resulting from Acorn’s registration drive here in Clark County last year...
At a hearing Tuesday, Mr. Edwards described how he and Ms. Busefink had debated whether to make the bonus threshold as high as 26 people registered but had settled on 21 because, Mr. Edwards said, “hey, it’s Las Vegas — it’s blackjack.”
Mr. Edwards also told the judge that Ms. Busefink visited the Las Vegas office after the program had started and that a whiteboard showed indications of incentive payments that she did not question...
Acorn and Ms. Busefink are to be arraigned on Oct. 14. Matthew Henderson, the Southwest regional representative for the organization, said this was the first time it had faced criminal prosecution...
Secretary of State Ross Miller investigated at the behest of the Clark County registrar of voters, Larry Lomax, who had noted that a large number of the forms Acorn turned in carried the names of famous football players and cartoon characters.

Now, before any of you decidethat this is just the right-wing smear campaign at high speed, keep this in mind:
Both the Clark County registrar and the Attorney General of Nevada are solidly encamped on the left side of the isle.

Any intelligent, respectful thoughts?

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "WHAT A RIDE

 
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