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Denise
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200 posted 09-27-2009 12:22 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Governments, unchecked, tend toward power-grabbing and eventual tyranny, Grinch. I would think most people have a general distrust of those in power to one degree or another. Perhaps it is less so in countries where citizens have been brainwashed into believing that government in generally benevolent.
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201 posted 09-27-2009 12:41 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


By brainwashed I presume you mean, "Convinced in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary".

I can't think of a single act that my government has ever undertaken with premeditated determination to do me or the rest of the country harm.

.
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202 posted 09-27-2009 03:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

No, it could be as simple as indoctrinating people from the time they are children that it is the job of the government to take care of them with a myriad of social programs from cradle to grave in exchange for a good pertentage of earnings in taxation, thereby restricting economic freedom and the innovation that comes with real economic freedom.

I think that qualifies as harm. Of course the leaders may not view it as harm themselves if that is what they were taught also.

Bob K
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203 posted 09-27-2009 05:34 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Denise,

          I don't take my theology from Pat Boone or my political advice from Pat Boone.  I don't see that he's got any particular expertise in either.  

     If the Republicans have tons of proposals, please give me some references for them.  I'd be interested in seeing some proposals that don't have poison pills in them for any sort of reform that involves single payer systems, or that didn't give huge advantages to the insurance companies while hurting premium payers.  I'm certainly willing to be proven wrong, however.  

     And could you please quantify "tons" for me:   Hundreds?, dozens?  tens?  How many?  and from whom?

     Inquiring minds want to know.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven

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204 posted 09-27-2009 06:12 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

...and I'd like a link to the poll that showed 65% of the people for a government option.
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205 posted 09-27-2009 06:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually, Jennifer, polls are conducted on the assumption that people  are basically honest, like not voting 14 times, for example. They can't really do much about people who aren't.
Denise
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206 posted 09-27-2009 07:22 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't have any links available at the moment, Bob. I supplied a few earlier a while ago, don't even remember which thread now. I'm sure you could find quite a few if you google it.
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207 posted 09-27-2009 09:56 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Then you need to tell the freepers that, Balladeer. They often put out the call "freep this poll" which means as many can vote as many times as they can to slant the poll results in the direction they want them to go.

Bob, I've read a few of the Republican  plans online. They tend to be extremely vague, lacking in details and basically pander to conservatives by speaking in generalities such as "make premiums for those with pre-existing conditions more affordable" yet don't mention how they plan to make that happen. I guess they think  insurance companies are suddenly going to have a change of heart, lower their profit margins and premiums. I don't plan on holding my breath.

I'm sure Denise has more information. I too would be interested in reading something about the Republican plans that goes into specifics.

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208 posted 09-27-2009 10:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

...which doesn't make it any less dishonest.

Still waiting for the link to the poll you mentioned, btw.
Bob K
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209 posted 09-27-2009 10:40 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Mike,

          I'm unsure which sort of polls you're talking about.  If you're talking about polls that are used for gathering research data, then the gathering methods themselves control for this sort of thing, as does the analysis of the data.

     The other sort of poll, the sort without controls and without methodology is valueless for information gathering.  It is a form of entertainment or tug of war.  Your comment about dishonesty in this context makes no sense at all since there are actual no rules to conform to or not to conform to, much as the voting on some of the entertainment programs on tv — America's most astonishing vocalist or America's this or America's that, where people will vote multiple times even though it costs them money each time they vote.

     The straw polls — those without controls — seem like a colossal waste of time to me unless you want to think of them as another sort of competitive sport.  They don't yield much by way of actual data at this point, though you've got to wonder if there might not be some way of using them to get information on crowd dynamics, given the proper mathematical instruments.  Not me, mind you.  I use my fingers to count to 2, and even then I loose count.

     Sincerely,  Bob Kaven
JenniferMaxwell
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210 posted 09-27-2009 10:48 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Glad to oblige, Balladeer, all you had to do was ask. http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/09/25/us/politics/25pollgrx.html

I totally agree, those freepers just can't be trusted!!!

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211 posted 09-27-2009 11:01 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, Jennifer is perfectly capable at showing outrage if she thought I was calling her dishonest. Your ride to her defense is really unnecessary unless it is to stoke the embers to create a fire. I'd like to think it's not.

Jennifer pointed out how easily polls can be manipulated. I was pointing out that polls are normally conducted on the assumption that in people will do them in the spirit in which they are offered. Those who don't are not bank robbers or criminals....they are typical. After all, we live in a country where one of the favorite jokes is VOTE EARLY AND VOTE OFTEN.

btw, in tv contests for the best whatever, people are encouraged to vote as many times as they like.
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212 posted 09-27-2009 11:20 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Outrage, me? Certainly not! When did I ever get my feathers ruffled?

I'm sure Bob knows he doesn't have to come to my defense. I can take whatever you've got to dish out, you old softie with a bark far worse than your bite. (insert winkie here, I forget the code.) Anyway no, I didn't think you were calling me dishonest, (this time) I'm sure you knew I was kidding about voting 14 times. Reads to me like Bob was just giving his opinion on polls in general, nothing more, nothing less and I totally agree with him.
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213 posted 09-27-2009 11:28 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, it does read that way....now that he has changed it and deleted the part I addressed.

Shame, Bob
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214 posted 09-27-2009 11:51 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, I did ask in reply #204. Thank you for furnishing it.

I will accept that 65% agree with having a government plan that would compete with private health insurance plans Problem is that many of the country's top experts claim that the government plan would eliminate private health insurance....and there is nothing in the proposed bill that says it won't. I would like to see that question asked if they supported a government plan that elimiinated private health insurance programs. I think the results would be different.

Interesting that the same poll, the results show the following, that most Americans......

Don't understand the health care reforms under consideration
Believe it will worsen Medicare coverage
Believe it WILL help illegal aliens get health care
Believe it WILL  create government organizations that will decide when to stop medical care for the elderly

I hardly consider that poll to be favorable to the proposed health care bill being offered. It basically says that people (1) don't believe Obama has explained it well enough, (2) don't believe him when he claims Medicare will not be affected, (2) don't believe him when he say no illegal aliens will get health care benefits and (4) believe there WILL be governmental "death panels" with regards to stopping treatment for the elderly.

SInce this is a poll you consider to be credible, you must agree with these conclusion, I suppose.
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215 posted 09-28-2009 12:58 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

You need to re-read what I wrote and note the punctuation, your supposing's a wee bit off.
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216 posted 09-28-2009 01:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Another recent poll by a far more credible source indicates that of those polled, 65%favor the public option. Does that indicate what the majority of people are thinking?

That's what I referred to. If there's some hidden meaning which negates it, I'm too tired to find it...off to bed. Nite nite.
Grinch
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217 posted 09-28-2009 05:55 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Interesting that the same poll, the results show the following, that most Americans......

Don't understand the health care reforms under consideration
Believe it will worsen Medicare coverage
Believe it WILL help illegal aliens get health care
Believe it WILL  create government organizations that will decide when to stop medical care for the elderly


The first result sort of explains the others.



I don't take much notice of those straw polls, I think the results are questionable at best, but the above sparked a question in my mind.

Whose fault is it if some people don't understand the health care reforms under consideration?

Is it the Democrat's for not explaining them? The Republican's for misrepresenting them (or vice versa)? Or is the responsibility down to the people themselves who seem to be averse to actually reading them?

Perhaps there's a case that can be made, as Denise suggested in another thread, that the language used in the health bill and other bills naturally leads to confusion. What do you think?
Bob K
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218 posted 09-28-2009 07:39 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

          On some thought it seemed that the text didn't support the charge, so I changed my response.  

     You were not drawing a suitable distinction between two sorts of polling and the sorts of data produced.  You were suggesting that those who participated in the entertainment type poll were dishonest.  People who use the information of those polls without making clear that it is from an entertainment poll whose results are not expected to show statistically reliable data may well be less than honest in the matter, especially if they are aware of the difference.

     I believe you were not aware of the difference and that your use of the data was mistaken because your sources used it mistakenly.  For a news source to use data like this is, I believe, dishonest.  They should know and respect the difference as a matter of training and experience.

     This leaves you holding the bag, for which I am sorry.  You might consider blaming your news source for having mislead you, whomever that source might have been, instead of venting in other places.

     Should I wish to build a bond-fire, I tend to be more ham-handed about it.  You give me too much credit.  

     The finger-wagging and reproof seems out of place for a message that was retracted and redacted inside ten minutes or so,by the way.  In my opinion.

BK
    
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219 posted 09-28-2009 09:39 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

So, how about those Cowboys, and have you heard, Palin finished her book, "Going Rogue, An American Life". Can't wait to read that one, already at the top of my Amazon wish list!  
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220 posted 09-28-2009 10:04 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, after that stunt, your opinion no longer matters to me....you were deliberately insulting and accusatory and then deliberately erased it after I called you on it. Au revoir....
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221 posted 09-28-2009 10:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Jennifer, I'm one of the biggest Cowboy fans alive
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222 posted 09-28-2009 10:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

s it the Democrat's for not explaining them? The Republican's for misrepresenting them (or vice versa)? Or is the responsibility down to the people themselves who seem to be averse to actually reading them?
The Democrats for not explaining them? That's a given. You may remember that Obama wanted it shoved through Congress before they left for recess. He wanted it passed before the public even knew what was in it. WHen democrats were asked about the bills in the town hall meetings, there were no answers given. The best the democrats could say was "We can't answer that question because the bills actually haven't been written yet".  That was their out. That is not supposed to cause confusion? Last week Republicans entered a bill that would compel the Democratic congress to post the final health care bill publicly three days before it was to be voted on. The democrats refused. They do not want the public to be able to see it before it can become law.

The Republicans for misrepresenting them? Could be if you can show me where the republicans have misrepresented something. What they have done is point out the misrepresentations in Obama's speeches, like that it will add nothing to the deficit, that it will not be harmful to private coverage, that there will be no government panels deciding when to cut off treatment to seniors, etc, etc, etc. SHould they just be quiet and not point them out? How fair would that be to the American people?

People who seem to be averse to actually reading them? On what do you base your conclusion that they are averse? What final health care bill has been made available to them? I've seen where they have DEMANDED to see it. I don't understand where your comment comes from.

I agree that the legalese is difficult for the average person to understand but I don't know what can be done about it. I doubt anyone is going to get Congress to write things in terms understandable to the man on the street.....regardless if congress is of either party.
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223 posted 09-29-2009 03:11 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Mike,

quote:

Bob, after that stunt, your opinion no longer matters to me....you were deliberately insulting and accusatory and then deliberately erased it after I called you on it. Au revoir....



     Sad then that yours matters to me.

     I thought your comments I've quoted above just a touch out of line, especially when compared to the actual posting times.  

     The issue with the straw poll is not your fault.  The place where you got your information should have known better to pass it on to you in that form; it exposed you cynically or ignorantly to people who actually understand the difference between the two sorts of polling.  Shooting the messenger who points out that you've been mislead doesn't supply you with trustworthy information.  It simply means that it helps to broaden your sources to get confirmation about this sort of thing.

     If I think I've done something wrong, I have nothing against saying so.  It's good for my humility and my perspective.  If I don't think I've said something wrong, I see no need to say I did.  I acknowledged exactly what I did do, which I feel was acceptable.  I changed the text that I disliked so quickly that the fact that I revised it wasn't even noted on the text.  The text I substituted hasn't been addressed, and piques no apparent interest on your part.  Since that is the text that I wanted to stand, I'm sorry you choose to be blind to it and to focus on something you believe you can fight about.

     Should you wish to fight, please don't involve me.  I'm more interested in the issues such as I see them.  

     Some of the things that I see as issues, discussed recently above, would include the suggestion that private insurance would be damaged.  The suggestion is so wide as to be meaningless.  Some private policies are quite good and should be guarded carefully.  Some need to be given a dose of competition and not have their profit margin government protected at 20% and raised to 35% as some companies are lobbying to do.  

     Companies with that sort of profit margin guaranteed by government should be raising loud screams on the right.  You would think that they would believe this was government intervention, you I haven't heard anything about it from the right.  Perhaps some of my friends on the right can tell my why this sort of Government intervention seems all right while other sorts of government intervention do not?  There would be some exploration, to my mind, on that issue that could be worthy.

     The notion of Death Panels also seems to me to be a misrepresentation by the right.  All insurance coverage is reviewed even today for suitability by private insurance companies who follow strict guidelines that do not necessarily follow the rules that would otherwise be laid down by the relationships between patient and doctor.  The people who make these decisions are often not physicians, and on occasion are not even nurses.  Decisions as to what procedures a company will pay for or not pay for, or what proportion of a procedure a company will pay for or not pay for can often make the difference between whether or not a patient can have that procedure or not.  It is the same way with which drugs a company will pay for and which it won't and at what level they will demand a co-payment for the drugs they do allow.  These are designed to make the patient decide not to take certain drugs that their physician believes will be helpful for them so the insurance company can make additional money.

     Such practices amount to pushing some patients toward a premature death.  That is the health insurance system that the right wing suggests that we keep.  For some of us with very high end insurance, this is a good thing.  It is not such a good thing for others.

     To suggest that such horrors will only come to pass when the government becomes more involved in the health care system is terribly misleading.  This is the case now, and the motive for it is nothing less than profit and the bonuses that insurance executives gather for themselves.  Grinch is probably right about the superiority of a national health system over a hybrid system in terms of the longevity of the system and the quality of the care overall.  If folks want additional high end care and want to take out a policy to make up for the difference, they should be able to do that as well.  

     These are issues worth talking about.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
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224 posted 09-29-2009 03:50 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“Could be if you can show me where the republicans have misrepresented something.”

Isn’t that exactly what you did, Balladeer, in the opening post of your “Oh, those Little Details!!” thread where you quoted from a source Congress.org which was created to help lobbyists such as those for pharmaceutical and insurance companies push their agenda on the public via the net?

“On page 425 it says in black and white that EVERYONE on Social Security, (will include all Senior Citizens and SSI people) will go to MANDATORY counseling every 5 years to learn and to choose from ways to end your suffering (*and your life*). Health care will be denied based on age. 500 Billion will be cut from Seniors healthcare. The only way for that to happen is to drastically cut health care, the oldest and the sickest will be cut first. Paying for your own care will not be an option. Interviews*”

A particularly despicable example of the lies and fear mongering conservatives and republicans have been tossing about in order to confuse and influence the public.

 
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