How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 The times...   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  ]
 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

The times...

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


225 posted 09-29-2009 06:12 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually, Jennifer, it DID say that everyone would have mandatory counciling every 5 years. Democrats have since taken it out of the bill based since it got exposure. Obama DID say that Medicare funding would be reduced as a means of paying for the new health bill. There is also a video (can't recall where it was presented here) of a television interview with Obama where he stated there WOULD be a time when doctors would have to decide that treatment for pain would be the only course of action for the oldest and the sickest. Who would decide that? Government boards or doctors under pressure from government boards, no doubt.

Fear mongering? Hardly....more like bringing details out of the shadows and exposing them to the light. Obama's speeches on  health care have been rife with contradictions, from his "Single payer system is the only way to go" to "Public option is a consideration that is not necessarily vital to the new plan" or from his "Medicare will not be touched" to his so many billions will be taken out of Medicare to help pay for the new system. Not only  have these contradictions confused the public, they have also confused many Democrats, who are more than just a little angry with their top gun. If you want to claim that bringing these contradictions to light is fear mongering, be my guest. Obama and  congress has done everything they can to keep the public in the dark concerning the details of the health care bill. If Obama had had his way, it would have been passed with no fanfare before the public even knew anything about it and Congress could then have escaped to their recess and Obama to his vacation spot on Martha's Vineyard. Looking at the handling of the cap and trade bill is an excellent example of how they like to work.

Why has congress refused to allow the final health care bill be posted on the intenet 3 days before the vote on it? Why was a gag order placed on Humana for advising their members that their benefits could be cut? You want to talk about disregarding the constitution....there is no better example than that. Democrats want the details of their brave new word helath care system kept hidden. Republicans aren't letting them get away with it so easily.
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


226 posted 09-29-2009 06:20 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Only have time right now to address one point.

"Actually, Jennifer, it DID say that everyone would have mandatory counciling every 5 years."

No it didn't and a big for repeating the same fear mongering nonsense again.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


227 posted 09-29-2009 07:29 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

OK, no sense beating the same dead horse again. All republicans are fear mongerers and all democrats are innocent victims being picked on by those bullies. You've won me over.

Have a nice day....
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


228 posted 09-29-2009 09:35 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Mike,

          Exactly.  There's nothing like having distorted words placed in the mouths of the opposition, now, is there.

     As one of the correct Democrats, I thought that you might actually want to see the text of the letter to Humana Heath Care that you've been drawing conclusions about.  Quite possibly not, since when a Democrat appears to have a point, it looks as though you leave the field in a huff.  (I think Huffs are a new British electric cars, aren't they?  The affordable version that they're trying to fund over here instead of in the U.K. for family use, not as sports cars?  Perhaps I've got that mixed up.)

quote:


DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH & HUMAN SERVICES Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services 7500 Security Boulevard Baltimore, Maryland 21244-1850
_________________________________________________________________________________
September 18, 2009
Ms. Gail Miller, VP, Strategy and Product Development Humana, Inc. 500 West Main Street, 17th FL Louisville, KY 40202
Ms. Laura Kelley Medicare Compliance Officer Humana, Inc. 500 West Main Street, 17th FL Louisville, KY 40202

Dear Ms. Miller/Ms Kelly:
CMS has learned that Humana has been contacting enrollees in one or more of its plans and alleging that current health care reform legislation affecting Medicare could hurt “millions of seniors and disabled individuals [who] could lose many of the important benefits and services [emphasis in original document] that make Medicare advantage health plans so valuable.‖ The message, which is included in an envelope that states it contains ―important information about your Medicare Advantage plan—open today!,‖ makes several other claims about the legislation and how it will be detrimental to enrollees, ultimately urging enrollees to contact their congressional representatives to protest the actions referenced in the letter (see attachment).
CMS is concerned that, among other things, this information is misleading and confusing to beneficiaries, represents information to beneficiaries as official communications about the Medicare Advantage program, and is potentially contrary to federal regulations and guidance for the MA and Part D programs and other federal law, including HIPAA. As we continue our research into this issue, we are instructing you to end immediately all such mailings to beneficiaries and to remove any related materials directed to Medicare enrollees from your website.
Page Two – Humana, Inc.
Please be advised that we take this matter very seriously and, based upon the findings of our investigation, will pursue compliance and enforcement actions.
If you have further questions please contact [staff]. Sincerely,
Teresa DeCaro, RN, M.S. Acting Director Medicare Drug and Health Plan Contract Administration Group
Attachment  



     You will find the letter referenced at the Reuters news site and may check yourself , should you wish.  Certainly their version will preserve the more professional spacing and font set-up that I haven't been able to here.

     The point of the letter is that they are trying to pass themselves off as being representative of Medicare as a government agency rather than than as a private insurance group representing their own financial interests and using their Medicare-generated health care client list as a data base for a political mailing.

     The law treats this last little bit as a violation.  It is using private medical information for the financial good of the company and HIPPA prevents it and has for almost 20 years.  It is not done for the patient but for the company.   Not being somebody for whom medical confidentiality is a professional obligation, I'm not sure if you understand this.  It's the same law that protects patients from having their private records published and their confidentiality breached.

     The other piece is that Humana is trying to present themselves as a public agency, according to this letter.  Is this fraud?  You'd have to be more qualified than I am to say, and I'm not qualified at all.  But if it's honest and aboveboard, why go to the bother?

BK
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


229 posted 09-29-2009 04:24 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     About the three day prior posting for the health care bill.  It seems to me that a three day prior posting would be a good idea in many ways.  However, let me raise a few points that came to mind while I was doing a Google search.  

     The posting in at least a few of the sources that I checked was supposed to be in plain English.  Plain English is terrific, and would be even better if that's how the bill were written in the first place.  Since it is written in legalese, this means that the bill would have to be re-written with congress debating every comma and nuance of the bill all over again.  This would amount to completely different bill being presented to the public than the one that was being voted on, and a whole reconciliation process.

     Three days my foot.  By the time the foot dragging was done, another five years would have passed.  This is more Republican delaying while they continue to mount a disinformation campaign against the whole concept of health care reform.

     If people are interested in what the bill contains, they can follow the progress of the bill though house and senate and then through reconciliation and know what the contents of the bill are ahead of time.

     It might be a very good idea indeed if future bills were actually written in English rather than legalese, at least as an experiment.  I can understand the frustration here, having been through it myself on THE PATRIOT BILL and on some of the more difficult bills of prior administrations.  Plain English ought to be the language the bills are written in to begin with.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


230 posted 09-29-2009 04:41 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Could be if you can show me where the republicans have misrepresented something.


Do you mean stuff like this Mike?
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/001845-3.html#54

Where's the evidence that people are averse to reading proposed bills?

Well the first piece of evidence has to be the initial post in the same thread I've linked to above, where you posted outlandish and incorrect claims rather than read the relevant bill to verify if the claims were correct.

Then there's your own conclusion that no politician has read it (odd because I'd been reading it for months when you first made the claim).

Finally there's the fact that I keep having to correct all the false claims - like those in the above link. It's obvious when you read the bill that the outlandish claims are patently false and obviously written by someone who was averse to reading the bill itself.

It's a point I've raised before.
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/001845-4.html#88

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


231 posted 09-29-2009 04:57 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Plain English ought to be the language the bills are written in to begin with.


I agree Bob,

I've read quite a few of them, yes I know it's sad but if you're trying to argue a point you need to read the source document to get at least some idea regarding the subject at hand. In most cases I don't have a problem, reading contracts and legal documentation for years has tuned my ear to the convoluted contortions that are common parlance in such documents. There are parts though where you really need to read and re-read parts to distil the actual meaning; I usual get the meaning on the third or fourth pass, even when faced with the most contorted effort, but plain English would be a whole lot easier.

http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/examples/before_and_after.html

.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


232 posted 09-29-2009 05:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Grinch, the politicians themselves have claimed not to have read it. It's right there in the town hall videos on youtube...hard to believe you haven't seen them, since the links were posted here. No, you haven't read the final bill because there is no final bill yet. SOmehow I seem to recall you pointing out that there is no final bill to prove some kind of point defending the town hall democrats.

Also, I don't see where the initial response to the topic you highlighted means that people are averse to reading the health care bill. How many people? All of them? The majority of them? On what basis can you judge "people"? What is written there to lead you to that conclusion. People may misunderstand something but that really doesn't mean they are averse to reading it, is it? Your judgement of "people" strikes of sounding a little egoistical on your part, I think.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


233 posted 09-29-2009 06:01 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I haven't read the final bill Mike because the process of amending and refining the version that'll get voted on is a continuous process and until that process is concluded the final version doesn't exist. I have read the original version, the amendments to the original, the version debated and altered by committee, the alternatives offered by the Republicans and several of the suggested amendments put forward to be included in the final bill.

To all intents and purposes I have read the bill as it stands today and, thanks to your governments open access policy, I'll have the components of the final bill - the final version to date plus any subsequently agreed amendments - before the stenographers and document writers have got their pens out.

I just don't understand why I seem to be in the minority.

quote:
Grinch, the politicians themselves have claimed not to have read it.


I believe you, 100%, no argument. People, including politicians, are averse to reading the bill.

I go back to my original question. Why are they so averse to reading it Mike?

.
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


234 posted 09-29-2009 06:05 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Dare I use one of “their” favorite words? Yep, “Thugs"!

The Lie Machine
GOP operatives are running a secret campaign to kill health care reform, and it's based on Karl Rove's old playbook

“In fact, Scott's own group had played an integral role in mobilizing the protesters. According to internal documents obtained by Rolling Stone, Conservatives for Patients' Rights had been working closely for weeks as a "coalition partner" with three other right-wing groups in a plot to unleash irate mobs at town-hall meetings just like Doggett's. Far from representing a spontaneous upwelling of populist rage, the protests were tightly orchestrated from the top down by corporate-funded front groups as well as top lobbyists for the health care industry. Call it the return of the Karl Rove playbook”
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/30219673/the_lie_machine
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


235 posted 09-29-2009 06:23 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
What is written there to lead you to that conclusion. People may misunderstand something but that really doesn't mean they are averse to reading it, is it?


Mike,

Your first post in the link I supplied was an out and out lie by someone else that you repeated. You could have found that out yourself by reading the bill it referred to, as you rightly point out though it's also possible that you read the relevant section and simply misunderstood it. If so I may owe you an apology for presuming that you hadn't read it, I thought the section of the bill was very clear but I could be wrong.

So which is it Mike?

Did you misunderstand the bill or didn't you read it?

If you didn't read it would you mind explaining why you didn't you read it?

And why do you think that the politicians (those we agree didn't read it) avoided reading it?

.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


236 posted 09-29-2009 06:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I go back to my original question. Why are they so averse to reading it Mike?

Which takes me back to MY original question..how can you pass judgement on the "people"?

Perhaps there are those who are not in the top 2% of MENSA. Perhaps they have a little more difficulty than you have. I confess I got lost in it. Does that make me averse to it, too? Why didn't the politicians read it? For the same reason they admitted to not reading the stimulus bill and the cap and trade bill. Obama wanted them passed....period. That was enough to get their votes.

There are over 600 amendments recently added to the bill in Congress. I assume you have read those, also?
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


237 posted 09-29-2009 07:32 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Which takes me back to MY original question..how can you pass judgement on the "people"?


Where's all this "passing judgement" stuff coming from Mike?

I asked a couple of simple questions looking for opinions and all of a sudden I'm Hitler's evil twin!



Here's what I asked:

quote:
Whose fault is it if some people don't understand the health care reforms under consideration?

Is it the Democrat's for not explaining them? The Republican's for misrepresenting them (or vice versa)? Or is the responsibility down to the people themselves who seem to be averse to actually reading them?

Perhaps there's a case that can be made, as Denise suggested in another thread, that the language used in the health bill and other bills naturally leads to confusion. What do you think?


Which bit of the above has wound you up so much Mike?

You suggested people were confused and I offered some possible causes for discussion, the questions seem quite innocuous to me. Have I goofed and used one of those words that means something completely different in the US?

.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


238 posted 09-29-2009 07:58 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! No, Grinch, I do not consider you to be Hitler's evil twin. Soulmate? Well, that's something else...

Actually, Grinch, I have more respect for you than you think. At times, though, speaking as if you know everything can be irritating to those of us who do.

My problem with the comment? Or is the responsibility down to the people themselves who seem to be averse to actually reading them? I took that to mean that people were averse to reading them. If I misinterpreted you meaning, I apologize.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


239 posted 09-30-2009 07:41 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
At times, though, speaking as if you know everything can be irritating to those of us who do.


I actually agree with you here.

Quite a few times while reading through old threads I've started to say "You condescending bast.." then realised I'm reading my own post.



I don't do it on purpose; it just comes across that way sometimes. A failing caused perhaps by trying to be succinct and precise in an environment where misunderstandings of intent are easily made. It might help if you imagine me whispering rather than shouting as I type - I very rarely shout.

I think you'd actually be surprised if we ever met, I'm not the pompous, overstuffed, bombastic know-it-all that I sometimes come across as.

quote:
Actually, Grinch, I have more respect for you than you think.


I never doubted it Mike and the feeling is mutual. We may disagree, argue and misunderstand each other from time to time but two threads down the line we're having a nice chat. Granted it doesn't take long for us to start to disagree, argue and misunderstand each other all over again but there's no real harm in that.

quote:
I took that to mean that people were averse to reading them. If I misinterpreted you meaning, I apologize.


I can see how you could have read it that way - it wasn't my intent. When I wrote averse I was aiming for a meaning closer to disinclined but even that was posited as an option to be accepted or rejected along with the others. A bit like this:

Is it the bears fault that some campers are attacked? The park rangers? The campers themselves for being averse to following the no food in camp rule? Or is it the nature of the bear itself that almost guarantees attacks will happen?

All of the above are options Mike, offered to instigate discussion, hopefully you can see the similarity in the above and my original post.

Sans bears, obviously.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


240 posted 09-30-2009 08:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes,I do
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> The times...   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors