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Witch Hunt

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Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


0 posted 08-24-2009 08:08 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

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In a memo to the agency Monday morning, CIA Director Leon Panetta urged his staff to stay focused in the face of the "politicized" debate the report is expected to stir up, and defended the way the agency has handled allegations of abuse over the past several years.

"This is in many ways an old story," Panetta wrote, saying many of the techniques have already been made public. He wrote that the CIA obtained intelligence from high-value detainees "when inside information on Al Qaeda was in short supply," and that his role now is to "stand up" for officers who followed the legal guidance given to them.

Parts of the report suggest the intelligence gleaned through the enhanced interrogations was invaluable -- but it also is not clear whether that intelligence could have been extracted through more conventional interrogation methods.

According to a memo by an unknown author included at the end of the report, the program was considered an "absolute success."

The memo said detainees provided information that led to the arrest of other terrorists and revealed a number of terrorist plots -- including a planned attack on the U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan; a plot to derail a train; a plot to blow up several gas stations; and a plot to attack the tallest building in California.

A federal judge had ordered the IG report made public Monday, in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union.

Both the report and the announcement of a probe drew split reactions from lawmakers on Capitol Hill.

Democrats like Sen. Patrick Leahy, Vt., said the report showed "clear evidence" interrogators overstepped their bounds. Republicans like Rep. Pete Hoekstra, Mich., said the probe "risks disrupting CIA counterterrorism initiatives."



http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/24/justice-dept-advises-pursuing-cia-abuses/  


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Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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1 posted 08-24-2009 08:14 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

If it was an absolute success -- then that's why we have Osama Bin Laden sitting in a cell down at Guantanamo awaiting trial?
Balladeer
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2 posted 08-24-2009 09:19 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Obviously it's time to get the health bill out of the headlines....same tactic, different day.

Is it just coincidence this story comes out the day before the release of updated economic forecasts and deficit estimates on Tuesday, when officials release two government reports projecting huge budget shortfalls over the next decade? Methinks not....

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (08-24-2009 10:36 PM).]

Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


3 posted 08-25-2009 12:07 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"If it was an absolute success -- then that's why we have Osama Bin Laden sitting in a cell down at Guantanamo awaiting trial?"


Where he would be a lot more comfortable . . .


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Ron
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4 posted 08-25-2009 01:28 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Obviously it's time to get the health bill out of the headlines....same tactic, different day.

Chew gum. Walk. Same time. It's really not that difficult, Mike.

I have to admit, it's really nice to know what Fox News is thinking. Maybe we should ask them to choice the forums?
Grinch
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since 12-31-2005
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Whoville


5 posted 08-25-2009 01:47 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
According to a memo by an unknown author included at the end of the report, the program was considered an "absolute success."

The memo said detainees provided information that led to the arrest of other terrorists and revealed a number of terrorist plots -- including a planned attack on the U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan; a plot to derail a train; a plot to blow up several gas stations; and a plot to attack the tallest building in California.


How can we believe any of this when one of the claims has been proven to be an out and out lie on numerous occasions?

No wonder the author wanted to remain "unknown".

Balladeer
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6 posted 08-25-2009 02:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thank you, Ron, for pointing out that I must not have a mind or thoughts of my own. That's very comforting...much appreciated.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


7 posted 08-25-2009 02:16 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

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"The media has led with the story of our interrogation of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and in an effort to shock our national conscience, the report says, among other things, that he was told that if there was another attack on American soil, the CIA would “kill your children.”

I’m sorry but I’m left cold by this. The man who masterminded the actual murder of 3,000 Americans and changed our country forever, wanting to do more, was told that his children would be threatened if another attack took place. Let’s recall what we’re actually doing right now: We use Predator drones to actually kill terrorists with missiles — and we actually kill their children, friends, and relatives at the same time.

We truly have forgotten 9/11.

Back in 2001, without naming names, there were serious, intellectual people in Washington who spoke among themselves of doing things far worse than this to prevent another attack. There were learned moralists and foreign-policy experts who privately discussed schemes like threatening to target Mecca if another attack took place. Of course that never became policy, and it wasn’t the administration, but that was the mindset of an awful lot of serious people.

Did we intern thousands of Arab citizens in this country, as FDR did with the Japanese? Did we execute saboteurs once we found them, as FDR authorized? Did we use weapons of mass destruction, as Harry Truman did? Did we suspend habeas corpus on U.S. citizens, as Abraham Lincoln did? No. We did not, and terrorists like KSM and Al-Nashiri, who has 17 dead U.S. sailors from the USS Cole on his hands, are given three squares a day, Korans, and prayer mats in our custody.

CIA director Leon Panetta wrote this to his charges at the CIA yesterday:
This much is clear: The CIA obtained intelligence from high-value detainees when inside information on al-Qa’ida was in short supply. Whether this was the only way to obtain that information will remain a legitimate area of dispute, with Americans holding a range of views on the methods used. The CIA requested and received legal guidance and referred allegations of abuse to the Department of Justice. President Obama has established new policies for interrogation.
We obtained intelligence when it was in short supply. We received legal guidance along the way."

.......................

"Charles Krauthammer put it this way yesterday:

The administration is in a deep health care debate, a national debate, and every hour that passes, support for his plans are diminishing and his own popularity is tanking.

All of a sudden, this issue explodes on a Monday. Friday, the administration met at 5:00 after hours, releases a $2 trillion error in estimates of deficits, and on bright Monday, you get this re-litigation of the Bush administration all of a sudden exploding upon us.

Look, I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but I’m not a child. It’s not a coincidence.


And secondly, you get the president pretending he is against all this and that it is Holder, the attorney general whose initiative all of this is about, as if Holder isn’t an employee and under the direction of the administration.

So, the president is the good cop who is magnanimous, who really wants to look ahead as the messianic visionary he is, and Holder is the bad guy.

Obama knows exactly what is happening and this serves his purposes wonderfully."


http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZWQwYzBjYWM1ODg0NTVkMjA4Yjk0MmVlZGQyYzNhNDA=


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Grinch
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since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


8 posted 08-25-2009 03:38 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Huan,

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed may rank as the most despicable excuse for a human being ever to walk the earth. But it's still a lie to say that information he supplied while being tortured 183 times led to the authorities foiling the planned attack on the Library Tower. To be honest I don't care whether they tickled him with feathers or stuck bamboo under his fingernails; he didn't give them any information to foil that particular plan.

I can be pretty confident when I say that because:

The Library Tower attack was foiled in 2002 according to George Bush.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was arrested in 2003.

I readily admit that confessions extracted during torture can be very very useful though. For example one of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's confessions has been extremely useful to Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh. He's on trial for the execution of Daniel Pearl in Karachi. He's denying that he did it of course, his defence?

It's a matter of fact that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has already confessed to expert American interrogators that he'd beheaded Pearl. So how could Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh be guilty too?

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed did a lot of confessing apparently because there's a whole bunch of terrorists planning to use the same defence. I wonder if the prosecution is going to put a CIA operative on the stand to admit that any information extracted during torture can't really be trusted or whether Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh has been handed a get out of jail card by the American Government.

Hell of a catch that Catch 22.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


9 posted 08-25-2009 05:26 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


.

This reminds me of comment by Victor Davis Hanson in a conversation regarding revisionist
efforts on World War II saying there is  “this notion of  post facto utopianism”
that says of our ancestors:  “ They weren’t perfect, therefore they weren’t good.”

.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


10 posted 08-25-2009 06:01 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Hopefully it'll remind people that 2002 was 12 months before 2003

falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


11 posted 08-25-2009 08:28 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Putting aside the morality questions:  If torture works where is Osama Bin Laden?  The capture of one terrorist should have given us all of them like dominoes.

The only demonstrated use for torture is to get people to say what the torturer wants them to say which is not usually in correlation with facts.
Balladeer
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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


12 posted 08-25-2009 10:27 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I remember watching The Untouchables movie with Kevin Costner and Sean Connery when it came out.

In one scene they were interrogating bad guys the had just captured to get info on Capone. Elliot Ness (Costner) put the body of a bad guy, who had been killed, into a chair and, while another was waiting outside the door to be interrogated, Ness exclaimed loudly, "Tell me what I want to know or I'll shoot you!" and then fired his gun. The fellow outside was then brought in, saw the body in the chair and screamed, "Don't shoot me! I'll tell you everything!" The eyebrows of Connery's character rose in appreciation of the tactic, I personally felt that was a very smart move, and the audience at the theater broke into applause. I guess we must all be warped because that is one of the tactics being proclaimed to be a real no-no.

Blame it on Hollywood...
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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Southern Abstentia


13 posted 08-26-2009 07:48 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Perhaps then Mike,  we're going about this the wrong way -- we should be showing the terrorists US, watching the movies.  (and 24)
Balladeer
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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


14 posted 08-26-2009 09:32 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Hey, not a bad idea, reb. If they saw videos of  the millions of people who cheer on Jack Bauer, it might give them second thoughts, for sure.
Ron
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15 posted 08-26-2009 11:57 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Thank you, Ron, for pointing out that I must not have a mind or thoughts of my own.

Sorry, Mike, that was not my intention at all.

My first comment about chewing gum and walking at the same time was directed to your implication we can't focus on two important topics at once, that one must be intended as a distraction from the other. I think most human beings can handle at least two topics, though not necessarily at the same time (which is what you did by injecting health care into this thread).

My second comment was a reflection of John's propensity for posting quotations sans commentary. I would love to actually read John's opinions rather than assume his exactly parrot those of Fox News.

quote:
I personally felt that was a very smart move, and the audience at the theater broke into applause.

It was a clever move, but that's not the same thing as a smart move. Outside Hollywood, a person truly in fear of their life will say anything they think might keep them alive a few minutes longer. That might be the truth. Might not.

Personally, I think the efficacy of torture is a non-issue.

Even if you convinced me that the torture of a stranger could save the life of my daughter, I still wouldn't condone it. I would find alternatives, other ways to save her life, because the torture I accepted today to save her will, tomorrow, surely be inflicted upon her. History proves you can never protect the ones you love unless you are willing to protect the ones you hate. That's simply the way our Universe works.

Balladeer
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16 posted 08-26-2009 01:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No problem, Ron..

My first comment about chewing gum and walking at the same time was directed to your implication we can't focus on two important topics at once

Sure we can but the interesting point is that the torture business only seems to come up into the headlines when there is another issue detrimental to the White House. Somehow the headlines change to focus on either Gitmo, the CIA, interrogations or other past issues immediately from whatever had been occupying them almost immediately. Coincidence?

You may not condone the torture of one to save your daughter's life but you would do it. At least that's what you said in a past thread here. I hope you remember because it would be a devil of a job to find it if you reject it, but I'll try.

The torture you accept to save her will be inflicted on her in the future? OK, that's very philosophical in the "what goes around comes around" sense of it but I wouldn't try to sell it to your daughter or wife. I suppose it's a question of one's perspective. If you consider your daughter's kidnapper on the same level you see yourself and your daughter then fine. I would not be able to see it that way and I would not have any hesitation in threatening him with bodily injury to save her.  Different strokes...

BTW, even though we have all gove over this topic ad nauseum, I'll state once more that I do not condone torture. I simply disagree with what they are labeling torture. In my movie example, THAT action is considered torture in this day, to which I can only respond "Bull.....".

At any rate, putting it in the spotlight yes once again is serving the purpose they want. Should some news favorable to the president come up, it will go back on the shelf until the next time it's needed.  
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


17 posted 08-26-2009 06:00 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“Reporting from Alexandria, Va. - A Lebanese citizen being held in a detention center here was hooded, stripped naked for photographs and bundled onto an executive jet by FBI agents in Afghanistan in April, making him the first known target of a rendition during the Obama administration.

Unlike terrorism suspects who were secretly snatched by the CIA and harshly interrogated and imprisoned overseas during the George W. Bush administration, Raymond Azar was flown to this Washington suburb for a case involving inflated invoices.

Azar, 45, pleaded guilty Tuesday to conspiracy to commit bribery, the only charge against him. He faces a maximum of five years in prison, but a sentence of 2 1/2 years or less is likely under federal guidelines.

Defense lawyers and prosecutors declined to comment on the case Friday.

But Joanne Mariner, terrorism and counter-terrorism director at Human Rights Watch, called the case "bizarre."

"He was treated like a high-security terrorist instead of someone accused of a relatively minor white-collar crime," she said.”


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-rendition22-2009aug22  ,0,1840939.story?track=rss


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