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Passions in Poetry

Lack Of Encouargement

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Yoinn
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0 posted 08-22-2009 01:32 AM       View Profile for Yoinn   Email Yoinn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Yoinn's Home Page   View IP for Yoinn



Yoin


Alison
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1 posted 08-22-2009 03:01 AM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

Yoin,

I agree that all of us can make more of an effort to provide encouragement to each other.  I tend not to go to the teen section because I feel that is their place to share thoughts and explore through poetry.  However, I did sign up to be an Admin there within the next few weeks because I agree that we do need to help out and share our thoughts.  There are other boards that are overlooked by the majority - maybe we should just broaden our horizons throughout PiP and reach out to others more freely.

Thank you for making me take some time to think about this issue.

Alison
serenity blaze
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2 posted 08-22-2009 03:32 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Yoinn?

I haven't been around for a while, so I don't know if words of the weary should be given an audience.

When I first came here, I was anxious and unsure, and through much encouragement, I learned a little bit. Not enough to make me a proper poet, but enough to make me stick around for a bit.

And I am at a loss as to what to say to you now. I went through several stages, the first being utter and total joy at finding my people (*smile*) nad wanting to pay that encouragement forward. So I tried very hard to read everything posted--and it was easier to do that when Pip wasn't so big.

I tried to accentuate the positive in my replies--but then I got to the "critique" part--and almost everyone has their critique flag turned on--but I found my critiques misunderstood for hostility, very many times.



As a student of poetry myself, I began to question my own authority...so I stopped.

As a student of poetry, I began to question my own ability...so I stopped writing too.

I understand what you're saying, but I have never reached a point where I felt happy about doing much but replying that I had read and enjoyed. This has chaffed me arse so much that I quit writing for a long time, too.

And I still don't like what I write.

But there are workshops, and the Deputy Mod forum is helpful to understand how delicately the diplomacy of critique should be handled, especially by the novice.

If you have some fresh ideas/solutions, please enlighten me.

I'm forty-eight years old and all it did was confuse me.

And to think, I once aspired to be a teacher!

Balladeer
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3 posted 08-22-2009 03:59 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


It IS a good thing to encourage our younger poets. As Karen pointed out, however, PIP has grown an awful lot during the years. I have a difficult time just keeping up with the poems in Open, where I moderate. People normally tend to frequent most the forums that interest them first. The Dark and Spiritual forums also lack the quantity of responses that the Open forum generates but they don't complain because they know they are playing to a limited audience. Same goes with teen. Obviously, many of the teen members don't relate to the fact that, to get replies, you need to make replies. In the poem you  reference, the author who is bemoaning lack of responses has posted eight poem and made NO responses to other's poetry. I would say that weakens her complaint, wouldn't you? Life is giving and receiving and, if PIP can help point that out to our youth, that's not a bad thing.

Yoin, you are also classified as a senior member and yet I can only see once in your time here where you responded to a poem in Teen, mentioning that the poet "enjoy her tattoo". So here we have a senior member who doesn't respond to teens chastizing senior members who don't respond to teens concerning a post by a teen complaining of lack of responses who doesn't respond to others. Is this a great world or not?

Welcome to the Alley  


Yoinn
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4 posted 08-22-2009 08:56 AM       View Profile for Yoinn   Email Yoinn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Yoinn's Home Page   View IP for Yoinn

I too wondered if only teens should be in the teen forum. But I think reading and repling is fine for adult members. Like I said it would show encouargement for them to write. Thanks Alison.

Serenity,
I understand the diffculity in giving critiques, there is fine line to walk for sure. But lets be honest, there isn't a lot of hardcore critiquing goin on PIP, And I think thats a good thing and part of what makes PIP succesful. There are other web sites centered on that. I understand as most do that most poem replies are simply a " we appreacitate you" type of response. My point is maybe some of that can be given to the youth that are interested in writing. I don't see why anyone would chaff at helping in that manner. Thanks for responding.

Never do injustice to a man who isn't afraid to die because of it.  - Yoin
Yoinn
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5 posted 08-22-2009 09:40 AM       View Profile for Yoinn   Email Yoinn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Yoinn's Home Page   View IP for Yoinn

Balladeer,
I got exactly the response from you that I anticipated.

A plea by me for people to find the time to help others, you want to turn into yet another flame war.
  
"welcome to the alley"...( shakes his head..) Typical.

Yoin
Balladeer
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6 posted 08-22-2009 10:07 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yoin, if you can point out anything I said that was inaccurate, please do so. People give to get in all aspects of life. You have championed a poet who wants to receive without giving. You have admonished senior members for not doing what you do not do. No actual or implied insult at me will change those facts. Yes, I admit, I will say it like it is. Encouraging young poets is a good thing. Do it...and then admonish the rest. Find a young poet willing to respond to others and then champion her. Then you will add validity to your cause.

Have a nice day.
Yoinn
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7 posted 08-22-2009 10:34 AM       View Profile for Yoinn   Email Yoinn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Yoinn's Home Page   View IP for Yoinn

Balladeer,

Im not going there with you dude. Make up all your own words you want. I champion no one, I admonish no one. I just wanted to point out maybe an area we can as a group could improve on.

Now run along and go play already will ya.

Yoin
Balladeer
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8 posted 08-22-2009 10:55 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

This sorta surprised me. With all the poetery minded people here at PIP we are not promoting poetery to the youth?

Silly me. I took that as an admonishment, must be my sensitivities

I apologize, Yoin. I realize I put you in a defensive position by actually investigating your complaint and finding that you do not participate in what you want others to participate in, nor does the poet who complains about lack of responses participate in responses to others. I did not mean to move you to insults, even though you will not find an insult to you in my posts. Perhaps I should have just said "Nice entry" the way others say "nice poem" and let it go at that. That way we can all walk around with a rosy feeling.

NOW I think I'll go out and play....FORE!
Balladeer
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9 posted 08-22-2009 11:02 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Btw, I did respond to her poem...

There's a simple rule by which we live..
If you wanna get you have to give.
You want responses? Hey, that's cool.
Let's see you live that golden rule.

Don't criticize the others who
Don't do the same things you don't do.
One's time here can be really great
When we learn to participate.

Noww, for the last time.....FORE!!!
Falling rain
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10 posted 08-22-2009 11:14 AM       View Profile for Falling rain   Email Falling rain   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Falling rain's Home Page   View IP for Falling rain

I usually stay in Teen myself. And I have noticed that. But the teens in there will post and not comment on others. Its a give an receive type of thing.

Sure it would help for Senior Members (or higher) commented on the new and junior members work.

But like I said before. Give and you'll receive.   
Grinch
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since 12-31-2005
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Whoville


11 posted 08-22-2009 11:58 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


As Mike pointed out if you want more replies all you need to do is reply to everyone and his brother telling them how good they are and sit back and wait for the reciprocal praise. The quality or potential of the poems or poets, or even poetry in general, is purely incidental, the main goal of this site is to encourage participation and social interaction.

crosscountry83
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12 posted 08-22-2009 12:32 PM       View Profile for crosscountry83   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for crosscountry83

"Obviously, many of the teen members don't relate to the fact that, to get replies, you need to make replies."

Being a relatively new member and a teen myself, I can see all sides of this. I would try to encourage people to encourage teens to comment.     Take it from someone who knows...

Rileigh
Yoinn
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13 posted 08-22-2009 01:53 PM       View Profile for Yoinn   Email Yoinn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Yoinn's Home Page   View IP for Yoinn

I see now very clearly that I posted this in the wrong forum. The Alley Trolls have shown that its beneath them to reach out to anyone to help. Making it very clear if there is nothing in it for them then why should they. Take Balladeers statement

" People give to get in all aspects of life."

Im sorry Mike, not all people share that jaded view. I know I don't and I know many others who give because its the right thing to do and don't expect a thing back. [Edit Personal attack removed - Ron ]As far as my own responses in Teen Poetry. I included myself in those that needed to do more thats why there is a "WE" in my statement you quoted.

"This sorta surprised me. With all the poetry minded people here at PIP "WE" are not promoting poetery to the youth?"

I know i haven't responded in teen poetry and i knew this BEFORE you pointed it out in your statement. If my intention was to attack anyone I certainly could have gone and made some replies and waited a few days then posted this. Perhaps that is the way you would have done it Mike but not me. I just was pointing out, as I said before, an area that all of us could help improve on.
    I took the post down and will contact the people personely that I think are evovled enough to perhaps understand the purpose of the post.

"Grinch".... nice handle...appropriate

Yoin

[This message has been edited by Ron (08-22-2009 02:02 PM).]

Ron
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14 posted 08-22-2009 01:56 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
The quality or potential of the poems or poets, or even poetry in general, is purely incidental, the main goal of this site is to encourage participation and social interaction.

That's an opinion, Grinch, one based on a limited view and the simple fact that we don't follow the same course to our destination that you might follow.
Ron
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15 posted 08-22-2009 02:07 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Im sorry Mike, not all people share that jaded view. I know I don't and I know many others who give because its the right thing to do and don't expect a thing back.

Then do it. Talking about it just implies you DO want something back.

Your request for people to change their behaviors was admirable, Yoin. It just wasn't very credible. Lead by example, not by admonishment.

quote:
I took the post down and will contact the people personely that I think are evovled enough to perhaps understand the purpose of the post.

That's a problem, Yoin. When you invite people into a conversation, you don't get to rescind your invitation willy-nilly. Doing so is rude. Do it too many times and you'll find you have to no one willing to listen.


Yoinn
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Michigan


16 posted 08-22-2009 02:41 PM       View Profile for Yoinn   Email Yoinn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Yoinn's Home Page   View IP for Yoinn

I can and will rescind any post that i make at my descreation Ron, if, as in this case I feel it better suited else where. Im sorry if you have a problem with it.

As far as leading by example, I fully intend to and really don't need you to tell me to DO it. Why else would I have taken the time to post it in the first place?. Credible?. I already admited that I included myself in with everybody else. You don't folllow logic or make a bit of sense Ron. How can sombody act on something BEFORE they aware of it.

It appears I have struck a nerve with some of the folks here in Alley.
This is my last post on this. It doesn't matter how big my feet are....if the shoe fits your foot..then it fits your foot. Period.

Yoin

Yoin
Grinch
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Whoville


17 posted 08-22-2009 04:44 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
That's an opinion, Grinch


Of course it is Ron.

I thought that's what was being asked for.

Obviously the one I gave may not necessarily match yours, or anyone else's, but thatís probably due to the simple fact that I don't follow the same course to my destination that you might follow.

Balladeer
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18 posted 08-22-2009 04:55 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

It doesn't matter how big my feet are....if the shoe fits your foot..then it fits your foot.

Well, there's no way I can top that one so I'll retire, also
Alison
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19 posted 08-22-2009 05:12 PM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

Yoin,

I think you brought your post into the Alley ready to do some kind of battle, even before a battle was declared.  You are the one who made jabs about political posts - and you did admonish senior members who spend more time on political style posts rather than responding to teens.

It doesn't take members of PiP long to figure out how the process works.  If you want responses to your poetry, reach out to others and offer responses to their poetry.  Another way to gather responses is to thank those who do take the time to share their thoughts.  It's simple.

There are a group of people who don't want to read any one else's poetry - I'll respond to those people for awhile.  However, if I see that they never reach out to others (and no - it doesn't have to be my poetry), I will stop responding to theirs in time.

It really doesn't matter which board - there are those who participate and those who want to only read remarks on their own poetry.

I actually laughed at Balladeer's response to you and thought - I wish I had written that.  I thought he was respectful, but honest in his opinion and his facts.

Yoin, I don't really like the Alley either.  I find it hard to keep up and I am not a very good debater.  However, I think you came in here with attitude blaring.  That's too bad because you clouded what could have been a learning conversation.

Why not apply to be a DM?  Why not participate more in the growth of PiP?  If you don't want to that's fine - but don't wait for others to do what you can do yourself.  If you think that Teens need more encouragement.  Encourage them.  Some of us might follow your lead when we see the positive response.

I am sorry that you removed your original post.  It seemed petty to me.

Alison
Ron
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20 posted 08-22-2009 05:18 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I can and will rescind any post that i make at my descreation Ron, if, as in this case I feel it better suited else where. Im sorry if you have a problem with it.

I'm sincerely sorry to hear that, Yoin. That being the case, you leave me little choice but to exercise my own descreation and rescind them for you. In advance.
moonbeam
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21 posted 08-22-2009 05:20 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

I understood the purpose of the post Yoinn and appreciated why you said it.   I think you intended to say something that you felt the youngsters here might not have the nerve to say for themselves.  The fact that you haven't posted much in teen yourself doesn't matter at all in my book - I think you did a good job and you ought to proudly put your post back and not worry about sniping.  

By Mike's criteria I'm probably more qualified to say thanks to you than most, and also to appreciate that it's sometimes not easy for seniors to post in teen.  

For a start there's the prevalent paranoia in society with child abuse which regrettably extends to doubting even the most innocent actions.  Then there is the problem (for some) of communicating and relating to young people.

Next there is what to say.  Personally I've found the teen forum here at PiP the last bastion of worthwhileness.  A while back, before your time, PiP was in fact more than what Grinch now accurately describes it as.  Alas that has all finished, except possibly just sometimes in the Teen forum where there is still an eagerness to learn and to discuss among some of the participants.

There is also a good deal of raw talent, and a sincerity about writing for writing's sake which doesn't regrettably find much of an echo elsewhere in the site.

Chatting and responding to the person rather than the words is a fun past time, but some people come here perhaps believing they will find more.  They won't except perhaps in Mike's Workshop   , and it's dishonest of anyone to pretend otherwise.

Ron himself states it clearly:

"... the forums are dedicated to fostering an understanding of the human condition through communication. Our poetry is a vehicle ..."  

As Grinch said, the poetry in these forums is merely a vehicle.  

Teens are demanding Yoinn, rightly so, they see through pretence and dishonesty and generally want progress and answers.  It could be a lively forum even here at PiP.  Go to it!  

But if you ever feel you need more:
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum29/HTML/002394.html

Peace.

brneyedgrly
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nowhere and everywhere


22 posted 08-22-2009 05:55 PM       View Profile for brneyedgrly   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for brneyedgrly


____________________________________________

There is also a good deal of raw talent, and a sincerity about writing for writing's sake which doesn't regrettably find much of an echo elsewhere in the site.
____________________________________________


I have to take issue with this statement, moonbeam...

I call a foul...

shellie

.
Balladeer
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23 posted 08-22-2009 06:04 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I have to agree with Shellie. Criticizing the other forums makes little sense to me here.
brneyedgrly
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nowhere and everywhere


24 posted 08-22-2009 06:23 PM       View Profile for brneyedgrly   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for brneyedgrly


thanks, deer...first dip into the alley...

was a little nervous  

.
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