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Passions in Poetry

Oh, those Little Details!!

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Balladeer
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0 posted 07-28-2009 07:55 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Page 425 of Health Care Bill
Health Care for ALL???
On page 425 it says in black and white that EVERYONE on Social Security, (will include all Senior Citizens and SSI people) will go to MANDATORY counseling every 5 years to learn and to choose from ways to end your suffering (*and your life*). Health care will be denied based on age. 500 Billion will be cut from Seniors healthcare. The only way for that to happen is to drastically cut health care, the oldest and the sickest will be cut first. Paying for your own care will not be an option. Interviews* > * *
http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=13798591&content_dir=ua_congressorg


Yoinn
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1 posted 07-28-2009 08:26 PM       View Profile for Yoinn   Email Yoinn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Yoinn's Home Page   View IP for Yoinn

Oh, those little rumors

page 425 a different view of it

http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/2009/07/27/health-care-bill-page-425-the-truth.htm
Balladeer
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2 posted 07-28-2009 09:01 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

that Medicare will pay for — not mandate —

Thanks for the link, sir. I contend that it's quite a difference to mandate rather than pay for. I know of no senior citizen (and I know many) who is  required to attend these "end of life" sessions, by order of the government.
Yoinn
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3 posted 07-28-2009 09:06 PM       View Profile for Yoinn   Email Yoinn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Yoinn's Home Page   View IP for Yoinn

perhaps...lol I don't debate such stuff. Just giving people some reading on the matter

yoin...(now where is my golf clubs )
Huan Yi
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4 posted 07-28-2009 09:06 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"during which the entire spectrum of end-of-life options can be explained and discussed so said individuals can knowledgeably choose their own treatment preferences in advance:
SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING "

And what might those
"preferences" offered be
to those, apart from the unborn,
the most vulnerable:

Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony,
or something else for their end equally soothing?


.

Yoinn
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5 posted 07-28-2009 09:18 PM       View Profile for Yoinn   Email Yoinn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Yoinn's Home Page   View IP for Yoinn

that Medicare will pay for — not mandate —

this line is not implying that citizens are now mandated it is refering back to the line in your post that implies that the health bill will make it so.

"On page 425 it says in black and white that EVERYONE on Social Security, (will include all Senior Citizens and SSI people) will go to MANDATORY counseling every

Yoin
Balladeer
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6 posted 07-28-2009 09:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

‘‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the
7 term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner de9
scribed in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning,
10 if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has
11 not had such a consultation within the last 5 years.

Page 425
Ron
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7 posted 07-28-2009 11:44 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

LOL. Here we go  again.

It does make you wonder, though. I mean, if this thing is really so bad and all, why do people apparently feel it necessary to fabricate stuff like this?
Sunshine
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8 posted 07-28-2009 11:49 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Ron, consider me the ostrich for the moment, but I've been "hearing through the sand" of these very moments...

so you infer that what is written above is not true? I mean, before I eat my earthworms and all and go searching for myself when I hear every day from my own "highly regarded to himself intellectual" [read hubby] that it "is"! ?



I hold all of my PiP constituents in high regard...but I just don't know which piece of paper, anymore, that they hold high, that I might be able as an ostrich, to chew upon...



Brad
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9 posted 07-29-2009 09:44 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Soylent Green
Grinch
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Whoville


10 posted 07-29-2009 02:33 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Mike you've surpassed yourself.

The only problem I can see, apart from the claim being complete twaddle, is that there's a distinct possibility that people will start to think that you actually believe this rubbish.

Please tell the good folks reading this that you were only joking and you don't really believe it.

.
Denise
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11 posted 07-29-2009 04:37 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Obama himself stated at the last 'townhall' meeting in response to a question about the treatment of an elderly person (who received a pacemaker) if that would have been available under his plan and he said that perhaps a pain pill instead of surgery is the better route to take. But pain pills don't correct cardiac arrhythmias.
Grinch
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12 posted 07-29-2009 05:03 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
But pain pills don't correct cardiac arrhythmias.


You're right Denise, sometimes cardiac arrhythmia doesn't require any treatment at all, that's probably the point your President was trying to make. If not it's a point he should have been making.


.
Denise
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13 posted 07-29-2009 06:26 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

And they can be life saving, Grinch. Is that a decision that the government should be making instead of it being a decision between the patient and the doctor, similar to the argument made by those favoring abortion rights?
Bob K
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14 posted 07-29-2009 06:45 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Folks,

quote:
‘‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the
7 term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner de9
scribed in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning,
10 if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has
11 not had such a consultation within the last 5 years.

Page 425




     I believe that there may be some confusion here.  

     The Advanced Care Directive is not an attempt to get people to kill themselves.  My wife and I each have one.  So should you, and they should be updated regularly to conform to your wishes.  

     What they are is a written document about what you wish to happen if you are not available to make health care decisions for yourself.  They will be used by the health care providers as a guide to what they will do in case you become unable to communicate your wishes directly; should you, say, lapse into a coma.  In my case, I have said that I want my wife to make the health care decisions for me, if I'm not available to do so.  

     In this document I am allowed to stipulate whether I wish heroic measures to be taken to keep me alive — repeated resuscitation, being maintained on a ventilator, being maintained if I show not vegetative signs of life, being maintained if I cannot breath for myself, being maintained if I show not higher cortical function and so on.  I can specify these things, and let my own personal wishes be known.  The medical folks will then carry out these wishes, or the wishes of my nominated health care proxy — in my case, my wife.

     These documents should be reviewed every five years because some of your thinking may have changed in that time — perhaps you now want your cousin to be your proxy rather than your father.  Perhaps your father has died and you no longer have him available to make those proxy decisions for you.  Perhaps you would now wish to be kept alive as long as the professionals can manage it rather than wanting them to pull the plug if you're brain dead.  These things can change over time, and the documents should reflect your current thinking.

     In terms of the government wishing this to be the case, it means that there is less overall dissatisfaction with the system, and that folks are more likely to be getting the care they want to be getting at the moment.

     I've just had to go through this with the death of my own father in December and the death of my father in law last month.  Both of them were fortunate to have had directives to make their wishes known and to make sure they were followed, since neither of them were conscious at the end.

     If you do not have a health care directive on file with your hospital and you physician, you really ought to consider one.  At the very least, you could consider researching the subject and decide on the pro and con elements yourselves.

     Don't let the difficulty over partisan quarrel over health care get in the way of your finding out about something that will give you more control over your health care and your treatment instead of less, and which would have headed off much of the terrible problems with the Terry Schiavo case a few years back.  If she had left her wishes in writing on file with her health care providers, much of the divisive struggle might well have been availed.  We would actively know whether she wished to be still on life support today, or whether she had been kept alive for years against her expressed wishes as a political football.


Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Grinch
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15 posted 07-29-2009 06:58 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


They can be life saving Denise, I agree, but that doesn't mean that a pacemaker is the correct treatment in every case.

Perhaps a pain pill instead of surgery is the better route to take in some cases.

quote:
Is that a decision that the government should be making instead of it being a decision between the patient and the doctor


It should be a decision made by the patient based on the best advice of a qualified Doctor, which is what is being proposed. It won't actually work that way though, for the same reason it doesn't actually work that way at present. You see Doctors don't always give the best advice Denise, they sometimes give the advice that's less likely to result in costly litigation.

If you have cardiac arrhythmia you may not need a pacemaker, but a pacemaker will cure the symptoms regardless of whether you need one or not. So the Doctor covers his rear and suggests a pacemaker when perhaps a pain pill is the better option.

.
Huan Yi
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16 posted 07-29-2009 07:19 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Simple question: under those words
can a doctor legally offer for equal
consideration an option he knows
will shorten a patient’s life
compared to other alternatives?


.
Grinch
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Whoville


17 posted 07-29-2009 07:58 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
can a doctor legally offer for equal
consideration an option he knows
will shorten a patient’s life
compared to other alternatives?


Simple answer:

Yes, in fact they do it all the time.

But that isn't what's happening in the case of pacemakers; in the case of pacemakers an estimated 30% are being fitted when they will not affect the length of a patients life one way or the other. Cases where a pill, drug or no treatment at all would achieve the same result.

.
Local Rebel
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18 posted 07-29-2009 09:09 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

All this provision does is give Doctors a mechanism for billing Medicare for counseling the elderly patient on end of life decisions -- as Bob described it -- something they are already doing -- this gives them compensation for it -- thereby making more time for the patient in the process.
Bob K
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19 posted 07-30-2009 03:44 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     It should be more than elderly patients who have advanced care directives on file.  Terry Schaivo was not elderly.  A lot of patients who end up with others making the decisions for them will not and are not elderly and may not have predicted they would be in the situation beforehand.  It is a good idea for everybody to have an advanced directive on file and to keep it updated unless you don't mind other people, and perhaps random other  people at that, making these decisions for you.

     I had a perfectly charming conversation with my wife one morning, went into the kitchen to pour myself a cup of coffee, and walked back in to find her having what looked like a stroke.  She was in the hospital for a month.  Fine one moment, does she need life support ten minutes later.  Fine now.

     I was able to act in accordance with her wishes because not only did I know what they were, but they were written down, so that if her dad or her brothers and sister had wanted to quarrel I could have showed them right there in black and white in the hospital files, no questions.

     Everybody would have known her wishes.

     It's better that way.

     Of course somebody's always going to think that you're trying to kill them.  Folks like that are useful, they keep the system as absolutely explicit as it can possibly be, and the rest of us can rest comfortably knowing that as explicit as that may be, it will never be explicit enough.  I want people that suspicious on my side.  I may not like dealing with them all the time, but I am grateful for the job they end up doing and I know it works out well for me in the long run.  And it keep my linguistic skills up, learning how to swear in new languages or how to get more inventive in the language that I have.  Very useful all around.
Klassy Lassy
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20 posted 07-30-2009 11:53 AM       View Profile for Klassy Lassy   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Klassy Lassy

There is plenty to worry about in the wording of bills being sent to congress, because there are people in government who are narcissitic and drunk with self-imprtance.  We see the corruption in waste and fraud and prejudice all too often.  Usually there is greed at the base of it, which, by its nature, precludes compassion and thrives upon manipulation.

This is not the first time I've read that the elderly and the terminal should accept their fate without recourse and that health care assistance should not be an option for them.  

It is the first time however, that I've read they should not be allowed to buy their own if they can afford it.  It is despicable that those in congress,  have written for themselves and their spouses huge amounts of money for their well-being for the entire rest of their lives at taxpayers expense, setting themselves above the rest of the citizens, while there are those who do not have enough to eat or to even see a doctor when they need one.  

I can't help feeling, whether or not this particular line referred to in the bill is being misconstrued or not, that there are those in high places who will leave the old and sick to perish. Were it not for charitable organizations among the private sector of America, there are many who would fall the through the cracks with catastrophic illnesses.  One of the segments of society that includes is housewives, who, for one reason or another, have not been in the workforce for 10 years or more outside of their stay-at-home duties with family.

We need to pay attention. What if these lines had not been amended, and what of the person responsible for writing them? I am not convinced that anyone intelligent enough to write a healthcare bill is ignorant of the meaning of the word "mandatory".  That the line had to be amended to begin with makes red flags go up.  There is an underlying current of a very unhealthy motivation (or apathy) here, and a need to be aware.  It seems to me, that is getting to be harder to do as days pass and we have to dig to get at the truth.

My opinion...for what it's worth!

Mysteria
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21 posted 07-30-2009 12:27 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Brad, I had to respond to you as that is exactly what I was thinking.  By the way, that is my all-time favorite movie.  Definitely more than "food for thought" came to mind.

Here is what Snopes has to say about this rumor: Snopes

Huan Yi
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22 posted 07-30-2009 04:51 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

There should be no ambiguity, as there obviously is, concerning this matter;
ambiguity lends opportunity to abuse.

.
Grinch
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Whoville


23 posted 07-30-2009 05:25 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Ambiguity?

What ambiguity?

All you have here is a serious case of someone ignoring the blatantly obvious truth written in black and white and replacing it with the obviously ridiculous.

The most frustrating thing about this nonsense is that all you have to do is read the proposed bill to debunk this myth yet there are people who prefer to perpetuate the myth instead of looking for the truth. Why is that? Why do otherwise seemingly intelligent people read the inane outpourings of a complete stranger and start repeating them as if they were handed down by JC or his dad without checking them out?

When someone offers you a pig in a poke people doesn't it make sense to actually take at least a quick look inside the sack?


Essorant
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24 posted 07-30-2009 06:26 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

It is because some people seem to want such myths to be true.  They want to make Obama and his healthcare reform look as bad as possible and if a false myth may help them, they will use it as far as they can.
 
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