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Passions in Poetry

Oh, those Little Details!!

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Denise
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125 posted 08-07-2009 09:16 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I understand enough of what I read to know that it is a massive government intrustion into our lives.
Denise
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126 posted 08-07-2009 09:42 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Obama's Health Policy Adivser, Ezekial Emmanuel's views on healthcare delivery should shed some light on where this administration wants to take this country. One of his beliefs is that medical care should not be expended on the disabled, and those, for instance, with dementia, (the useless eaters? Where have we heard that before?) but rather given to those who can contribute to society. The views of two other advisers are also shared here, including one who wants to set up that independent board to determine healthcare policy, completely taking it out of the hands of Congress and the public:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CHBvKGmevI
Balladeer
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127 posted 08-07-2009 11:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Most of the Bush speeches were in front of vetted audiences.

Bob, you simply CANNOT be serious!!!! To a manwho asks for facts to back up claims, I ask for your facts to back up that incredible statement.
Grinch
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128 posted 08-08-2009 04:27 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
I understand enough of what I read to know that it is a massive government intrustion into our lives.


Denise,

That's because you're reading the wrong thing.

You're reading an interpretation of the bill that's twisted and slanted to fit somebody else's biased beliefs and agenda. What you should be reading is the original text.

Have you ever heard of Chinese whispers?

There's a good example that purportedly happened during the First World War when Communication between the front line and the command centre at the rear was a real problem. Sometimes the only way to get a message from the front line was to pass it verbally from man to man, but that has its problems too. Allegedly on one occasion the simple message "Send reinforcements, we're going to advance" was sent from the front line by this method. Unfortunately the message was somewhat misheard and corrupted as it was passed from man to man. The message that was finally received by the confused commanders at the rear was "send three and four-pence, we're going to a dance".

I dare say that if you asked each person who passed the message along whether they'd got it right they'd be adamant that they had, I also suspect that if each of them went back to the source of the message they'd realise their mistake.

You're deriving what you know from a Chinese whisper Denise; the garbled interpretation from some poor sap who's probably repeating, with errors, what another fool has passed on to him. Just like you he knows it's true based on what he heard and read and the people who hear and read what you're repeating will be just as adamant.

In the trenches of the First World War misunderstandings and garbled messages were understandable and excusable. In the case of the health bill however you have the source of the message that is as easy to access as the garbled messages you're being given but you choose to ignore it.

I honestly can't understand why somebody would intentionally do that.

.

[This message has been edited by Grinch (08-08-2009 06:27 AM).]

Balladeer
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129 posted 08-08-2009 07:41 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Keep fighting the good fight, Denise. There are millions fighting with you. There are plenty of videos to support you. Obama is a good example of "Are you going to believe what you see or what I tell you?" Fewer people are going with the 'what I tell you' option...and with good reason. The direct quotes from the presidential advisors in your video presented are not Chinese to those who understand English. Have a sunny Philly  day  
Grinch
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130 posted 08-08-2009 08:05 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Fewer people are going with the 'what I tell you' option...and with good reason.


If only that were true..

Unfortunately it isn't. People are going along with whatever any fool tells them instead of reading the source themselves. The consequence is they end up looking just as foolish as the dipsticks that are originating all the twaddle and rumour that's being bandied about.

You still haven't told us if the claim you posted to start this thread has any truth in it Mike, or whether it's simply another example of the lies and rumours being spread about.

Personally, and after reading the bill, I maintain that it's the latter. Feel free to offer any evidence that I'm wrong, I haven't seen any so far but we all live in hope.

Huan Yi
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131 posted 08-08-2009 10:37 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"You're reading an interpretation of the bill that's twisted and slanted to fit somebody else's biased beliefs and agenda."

And what is to prevent someone in power from making the same interpretation as fulfills
worst fears?  Are the words somehow magical
that once law they will strike down anyone not reading them as you do now?

.
Denise
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132 posted 08-08-2009 11:06 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I was referring to the actual bill that I was reading, Grinch, when I said it was a massive intrusion of the government into our lives. I guess folks born into freedom, with only moderate socialistic programs here and there, as opposed to those born into full blown socialism, can spot attempts at tyranny more easily. Two different mind sets reading the same words have differing interpretations.

Thanks for the encouragement, Michael. It means a lot. Yes, hearing the words of Obama's very own personal advisors on health can't be called a misinterpretation by anyone.

Exactly, John. I was flabbergasted to see an on the run interview of one of the congresswomen who said words to the effect, "the important thing is to get this bill passed now. We can fill in the details later." Unbelievable. Do they take us for complete idiots?
Grinch
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133 posted 08-08-2009 11:13 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
And what is to prevent someone in power from making the same interpretation


Perhaps the fact that the bill doesn't actually say anything that even resembles the wild claims that are being made might be a slight disadvantage to someone trying to make suicide compulsory.

Hopefully if some lunatic decides to try to say otherwise there may be one or two people who actually care enough to read the bill and say "Hold on there dipstick - it doesn't say anything like that in this bill".

On the evidence so far though I don't hold out much hope. Folks are just as likely to say "Hey I saw it on You Tube so I guess it has to be true".

.
Grinch
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134 posted 08-08-2009 11:20 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I guess folks born into freedom, with only moderate socialistic programs here and there, as opposed to those born into full blown socialism, can spot attempts at tyranny more easily


Or maybe they can't.

We can prove it one-way or the other though.

Post one section of the bill, just one, that shows the tyrannical intentions you say are easy to spot.

.
Denise
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135 posted 08-08-2009 11:51 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You aren't getting it Grinch. Just the fact that the government is attempting to insert itself into the system, to control the system, to essentially call the shots, is evidence enough of its tyrannical intentions.
Grinch
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136 posted 08-08-2009 12:22 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Denise,

Why didn't you say so right at the start, all the false claims you keep posting were throwing me. You don't really believe any of them are really in the bill you just don't like your Government - I can understand that.

Do you want some ammunition to use against them? How about this piece of law - it's a dowser:

"The President may prescribe, such interest or property shall be held, used, administered, liquidated, sold, or otherwise dealt with in the interest of and for the benefit of the United States, and such designated agency or person may perform any and all acts incident to the accomplishment or furtherance of these purposes"

If this isn't tyranny writ large I don't know what is.

According to the above the US Government can just claim anything they want and they can do anything they like, including shooting you in cold blood, while doing it.

Am I getting the hang of it Denise?

Grinch
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137 posted 08-08-2009 12:32 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Denise,

A provider of electronic communication service or remote computing service shall disclose a record or other information pertaining to a subscriber to or customer of such service to a governmental entity

This one seems to make it legal for a service provider to hand all your computer information to any government entity - your postman is technically a government entity.

I'll dig up some more there are oodles of them.

Grinch
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Whoville


138 posted 08-08-2009 12:47 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Denise,

It's not only your computer data Denise - the government can take any written material too!

The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items), provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution

Including all your bank records if you've made an overseas payment.

The Secretary of the Treasury may require any domestic financial institution or domestic financial agency to maintain records, file reports, or both, concerning the aggregate amount of transactions, or concerning each transaction, with respect to a jurisdiction outside of the United States, 1 or more financial institutions operating outside of the United States, 1 or more classes of transactions within, or involving, a jurisdiction outside of the United States, or 1 or more types of accounts

How did all this stuff get passed!!

Grinch
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139 posted 08-08-2009 12:52 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


That's if they let you set a bank account up in the first place:

The Secretary, in consultation with the Secretary of State, the Attorney General, and the Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, may prohibit, or impose conditions upon, the opening or maintaining in the United States of a correspondent account or payable- through account by any domestic financial institution or domestic financial agency

Grinch
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140 posted 08-08-2009 01:18 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


You can't sue the bank if they hand your details over either.

Any director, officer, employee, or agent of such institution who makes, or requires another to make any such disclosure, shall not be liable to any person under any law or regulation of the United States, any constitution, law, or regulation of any State or political subdivision of any State, or under any contract or other legally enforceable agreement (including any arbitration agreement), for such disclosure or for any failure to provide notice of such disclosure to the person who is the subject of such disclosure or any other person identified in the disclosure.

Denise
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141 posted 08-08-2009 02:57 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It's scary what the government has managed to pass into law, isn't it, unbeknownst to most regular folks, I'm sure.

We don't need to give them even more control over our lives, especially in the health care field.
Grinch
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142 posted 08-08-2009 03:33 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

I'd go further than that Denise, what you should do is demand that all these tyrannical laws that have already been enacted are kicked into touch.

All the passages I posted would be a good place to start, they're more akin to something you'd have in a communist dictatorship than a supposedly free country. I took them all from H.R. 3162, you've probably already read it. For those who haven't it's full title is:

Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001

Or the Patriot Act

I'll dig out some more selected passages and maybe a few You Tube links - just in case anybody doubts how bad your Government is.

.
Grinch
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143 posted 08-08-2009 03:41 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Frightening!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFVQ0HZz2mc

The government needs to be stopped, now!!
Grinch
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Whoville


144 posted 08-08-2009 03:43 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Can you believe it they never even got the chance to read it either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdT0RNYoFfM&feature=related
Balladeer
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145 posted 08-08-2009 03:46 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Denise, you only have to look at selected comments on Grinch's other threads to recognize what his true philosophy is. Don't waste you time. I'm not.
Grinch
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146 posted 08-08-2009 03:47 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


This Judge read it and thinks it never should have been passed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNRSs6LsGeI&feature=related

Grinch
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147 posted 08-08-2009 03:57 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Keep fighting the good fight, Denise.


That didn't last long Mike.



quote:
Are you going to believe what you see or what I tell you?" Fewer people are going with the 'what I tell you' option...and with good reason.


I'm hoping Denise will take your advice and doesn't just do "what you tell her".

.
Grinch
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148 posted 08-08-2009 04:19 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvu12z832Xc&feature=related

How did this happen?
Balladeer
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149 posted 08-08-2009 04:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

There many ways to fight the good fight, Denise. Wasting time arguing with someone declaring how bad our government is is not one of them. Don't be baited. You are going up against a master

The link is interesting, though. It appears Judge Napolitano's (who happens to be a regular on FOX news and blows that bias theory to bits) complaint was that only two people in congress had read the 300+ page Patriot Act before signing. 300+?? Hardly compares to the 1200 page stimulis package or the 100+ page health care bill or the (how many?) paged cap and trade bill, which congress didn't read.....but those were democrats not reading so that's ok.

,,,so it's off to the poker game as the Alley and  cyberspace characters fade from view.

Have a good night, everyone
 
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