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Passions in Poetry

Oh, those Little Details!!

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Grinch
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100 posted 08-06-2009 03:29 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
could lead to a White House database of political opponents


And they could be made into a pretty daisy chain decoration to brighten up the Oval office.

Or paper airplanes.

Or napkins.

Or folded into those neat origami animals.

Or anything else you could possible imagine.

It's a great word - could - it allows you to make almost any claim you like without any evidence whatsoever.

.
Denise
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101 posted 08-06-2009 04:30 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Thank God the request for citizens to spy on and report fellow citizens who disagree with legislation being pushed by this administration was done openly!

What's next, teachers telling kids to spy on and turn in their parents if they disagree with anything the administration says or does?



Denise
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102 posted 08-06-2009 04:37 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

http://www.defendyourhealthcare.us/

If you can, watch Glenn Beck today at 5pm EDT on Fox News. He will be discussing the proposed legislation and how it can effect seniors.
Denise
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103 posted 08-06-2009 04:49 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

http://www.newsmaxstore.com/contribute/lav/video.htm

Grinch
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104 posted 08-06-2009 05:10 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

The purported "facts" on the page you just linked to in post 102 Demise are just plain wrong; in fact I'll go even further, in some instances, they're out and out lies.

I don't really understand the logic of repeating lies when the truth is so readily available; I guess it must be one of those cultural differences.

I've spent quite a bit of time debunking the inane claims other people make that you like posting links to, do you disagree with any of the explanations I've given so far? I only ask because you keep posting the same claims, which suggests that you still believe some of them.

I'm quite willing to go into each one of the claims in-depth, I'll even retrieve the relevant sections of the bill and break them down line by line if you like to prove how true, or untrue, they are. All you need to do is specify what you believe is in the bill and why it's wrong.

.
Balladeer
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105 posted 08-06-2009 06:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Of course, if true, the story describes something done out in the open, doesn't it?

Wow, Bob,I'm amazed at the lengths you will go to in order to justify democratic actions. SOmewhere it is written that the government cannot interfere with free speech. WOuld one not call intimidation interference? Of course they put it out in  the open. They want it stopped. They want people to know that speaking against Obama health care puts you on a list. You, despiser of the Patriot act, don't have a problem with that?

Perhaps there will be rewards for children turning in their parents. Hmmmm...some past world leader tried that same tactic....can't really really remember who.  
Balladeer
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106 posted 08-06-2009 07:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, you keep asking what polls? What Americans?  Ok....

Obama, who took office in January, remains popular with Americans, although his overall job approval rating slipped to 56 percent, down 5 points from April, according to an NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll.

Nearly 70 percent said they had concerns about federal intervention in the economy, including Obama's decision to take an ownership stake in General Motors and the prospect of more government involvement in healthcare. Obama has made healthcare reform a top priority of his administration.

The CBS/New York Times poll also found a distinct difference in Obama's overall standing and how Americans viewed his major initiatives.

Obama's job approval rating held steady at 63 percent from the previous poll last month, but fewer than half of respondents approved of how he was handling healthcare reform and efforts to save GM and Chrysler, according to the survey.

The poll also found that Americans were alarmed by the amount of money doled out to boost the economy and a majority thought the government should focus instead on reducing the federal deficit.

Both polls also found a majority of Americans opposing Obama's decision to close the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

The NBC/Wall Street Journal survey of 1,008 adults, conducted Friday to Monday, had a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 percentage points.

The CBS/New York Times telephone poll of 895 adults was conducted Friday through Tuesday and had a margin of error of plus or minus 3 points.
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE55H06I20090618

Polling data show that Mr. Obama's approval rating is dropping and is below where George W. Bush was in an analogous period in 2001. Rasmussen Reports data shows that Mr. Obama's net presidential approval rating -- which is calculated by subtracting the number who strongly disapprove from the number who strongly approve -- is just six, his lowest rating to date.


Overall, Rasmussen Reports shows a 56%-43% approval, with a third strongly disapproving of the president's performance. This is a substantial degree of polarization so early in the administration. Mr. Obama has lost virtually all of his Republican support and a good part of his Independent support, and the trend is decidedly negative.

Recent Gallup data echo these concerns. That polling shows that there are deep-seated, underlying economic concerns. Eighty-three percent say they are worried that the steps Mr. Obama is taking to fix the economy may not work and the economy will get worse. Eighty-two percent say they are worried about the amount of money being added to the deficit. Seventy-eight percent are worried about inflation growing, and 69% say they are worried about the increasing role of the government in the U.S. economy.

When Gallup asked whether we should be spending more or less in the economic stimulus, by close to 3-to-1 margin voters said it is better to have spent less than to have spent more. When asked whether we are adding too much to the deficit or spending too little to improve the economy, by close to a 3-to-2 margin voters said that we are adding too much to the deficit.

Support for the stimulus package is dropping from narrow majority support to below that. There is no sense that the stimulus package itself will work quickly, and according to a recent Wall Street Journal/NBC poll, close to 60% said it would make only a marginal difference in the next two to four years. Rasmussen data shows that people now actually oppose Mr. Obama's budget, 46% to 41%. Three-quarters take this position because it will lead to too much spending. And by 2-to-1, voters reject House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's call for a second stimulus package.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123690358175013837.html

Now I will concede that if you consider Gallup, Wall Street Journa/NBC, Rasmussin and CBS/New York Times as all right wing sponsored polls which don't seem to reflect very much reality, then this won't matter much to you at all but it appears that you are saying that since you don't agree with the polls, the polls must be wrong.....ok, that's fine.
Denise
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107 posted 08-06-2009 07:38 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I do appreciate your interpretation of the bill proposed by Congress that you provided, Grinch. And no matter how vague and non-threatening some of the provisions may "seem" to some folks, some of us are extremely skeptical of the government and its intentions by inserting itself so drastically into our health system. These people (lawmakers and lobbyists) are expert at wording legislation for maximum deception. Even if it could be said that its intentions were good, experience tells us the results won't be.

Here is a link for those wishing to sign a petition and contact your representatives via email or mail. It's all free.
http://www.cprights.org/
Balladeer
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108 posted 08-06-2009 08:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

In a letter to Obama Tuesday, Republican Sen. John Cornyn wrote that, given Phillips' request, "it is inevitable that the names, email address, IP addresses, and private speech of U.S. citizens will be reported to the White House."  Cornyn warned the president that "these actions taken by your White House staff raise the specter of a data collection program."

"I can only imagine the level of justifiable outrage had your predecessor asked Americans to forward emails critical of his policies to the White House," Cornyn continued.  "I urge you to cease this program immediately."
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Obamas-dissident-database-could-be-secret----and-permanent-52571822.html

How about that, Bob? If Bush had requested critical e-mails of his policies being sent to him and placed in a database, how loudly would you be screaming about that? Is it different since it's Obama?
Denise
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109 posted 08-06-2009 08:22 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

http://spectator.org/archives/2009/08/06/serfs-up
Bob K
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110 posted 08-06-2009 11:21 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I've looked at the article quoted by Huan Yi and and Mike.  My feeling is that the White House didn't think the statement through.  The way it was stated might well have a chilling effect on Freedom of Speech, and I don't like it for that reason.

     That said, there has been a certain amount of disinformation being spread about the Health care debate and the health care issues.  At this point there is no health care bill.  There are multiple proposed bills —and they may be at odds with each other —; and that's in the House.  I don't have any idea what version the Senate is working on.  There has been not reconciliation of the differences to provide a text, etc.

     The Republicans are bringing up issues in a bill as yet unwritten, which may or may not have these elements in their final text.  Certainly it sounds as though some of our folks here believe it.

     So if there is a certain amount of this disinformation being distributed, then it would be nice to be able to confront those people who are spreading it.  That would be nice, it would be satisfying, and I'm not sure that it can be done within the constraints of upholding the civil liberties that a Liberal administration should hold itself to.

     Should there be some method of gaining that information without trampling over the civil liberties of the jerks and liars who are spreading this pernicious garbage so freely about the country, I would be all in favor of it.   I simply don't see a way to do that right now.

     It doesn't mean that I think the spreading of this disinformation is something that I'm fond of.  But I think there should be some more non-chilling way of dealing with the information itself.  What folks say about currency may also be true about information:  Bad money drives out the good.
Ron
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111 posted 08-07-2009 12:02 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Free people have the right to tell any lie they want. Without fear of repercussion.

Any interference with the right to lie only serves to diminish our Truths.

Bob K
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112 posted 08-07-2009 02:09 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Ron,

          As a poet, I am fond of the right to lie myself.  To assert the right to do so without repercussion asserts control over the freedom of others.  They may have something to say about that.   There are laws about libel, fraud, and breach of contract which limit a person's right to lie freely and without repercussion.

     Whatever the lies you tell yourself in the privacy of your own home are your business.  If a lie of yours damages somebody else, your wish to avoid repercussions is merely wishful thinking.  You have thrown yourself on the mercies of antagonists.  Indeed, in reality this may be one of the things that limits the lies we tell.  We fear the retaliation we may have provoked.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Balladeer
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113 posted 08-07-2009 05:43 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So if there is a certain amount of this disinformation being distributed, then it would be nice to be able to confront those people who are spreading it.

I won't disagree with that, Bob, but Aunt Mabel or Jerry who cashiers at the grocery store?

If an agency, or a newspaper or some facet of the society that has the ability to influence the public comes out with out and out lies about policies, then the government has the means and ability to confront them...but to compile a list of ordinary citizens airing their gripes, even if their assumptions or informations are wrong? To send out a public request to have that information forwarded to them is valid? That takes Big Brother to a whole new level.
Denise
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114 posted 08-07-2009 10:59 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Obama called out the troops and they are coming out.
http://patterico.com/2009/08/06/angry-mob-of-racist-extremists-beats-black-man-at-town-hall-meeting/
Bob K
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115 posted 08-07-2009 11:06 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I don't want to chill free speech.

     I don't want to give speeches only in front of vetted same party audiences, and only take pre-prepared questions, as has happened at various times.  I think it is highly unlikely that this is an enemies list and think that the notion that it might be is nutty.

     However, it doesn't matter that I think it's nutty.  I understand that somebody someplace will actually think it isn't, and that person's civil liberties will be  curtailed, and that should not be allowed to happen.  So I'm unhappy with this particular announcement.  I also think that they'd be silly not to know where the disinformation is coming from.  

     I am puzzled how to balance the two needs.  

     I doubt anybody is interested in Aunt Sally or cousin Elroy.  I think that the interest is in the organizations that fund the disinformation campaigns and in tracing back their funding.  It would be interesting to shine a little light on that funding and see where it comes from and try to find out what motivates it, and have a truth squad operation to counter these various pieces of disinformation as they show up.

     That, I think, is somewhat alarming.  I believe in part that that is what this business about Nixonian "enemies lists" is all about.  In large part.  I'd be very interested in finding out where the funding for these disinformation campaigns is coming from.  RNC?  Pharma?  The Insurance Companies?  I don't know.

    Again, these are realistic concerns, but some other way needs be found to deal with them.  The right of free speech must not be abridged.

    
Yours, Bob Kaven

By the way, Mike, thank you for footnoting your references on the polling.  I found them interesting.  The organizations you mention are all, as far as I know, good organizations who know how to run a poll.  It would be interesting to know exactly what the questions were that they were asking as well.  In a couple of cases, I noticed, Obama's popularity remained high, but there was disagreement on specific issues.  Exactly how to read that result is difficult for me to know.

     I do, very much, however, appreciate the extra time and energy you put into doing that research.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Balladeer
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116 posted 08-07-2009 12:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I doubt anybody is interested in Aunt Sally or cousin Elroy.

I doubt that, too, Bob, but I also doubted it about Bush being interrested in them in his wiretapping.

Pelosi and the others had no problem with the protests against Bush, the ACORN disruption of rallies, the placards of Bush wearing a Hitler moustache. Nor did she have a problem with Sauros doing major contributions to contribute to those activities. Now, however, she is horrified at the "mysterious funding" from unnamed sources behind this "astro-turf" grass roots movement, consisting of mainly right-wing wackos. She is simply shooting herself in the foot once again because the American public can remember when it was the democrats on the side they are now screaming about. Also, included in these protests and demands for answers, are democrats and independents, which have found themselves labeled as right wing wackos, also. I doubt they appreciate that. Regardless of all of the Bush faults, he took the constant abuse and never screamed foul of tried to get people to turn in others who presented contrary views. Obama has lowered the bar to a new level and this shows a very shakiness on his part.
Denise
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117 posted 08-07-2009 01:19 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Also Thursday, the AFL-CIO announced plans to mobilize labor activists to attend town hall meetings in 50 congressional districts this month to counter the conservative protesters.

White House aides David Axelrod and Jim Messina traveled to the Capitol for their presentation to Democratic senators.

Senators saw videos of disruptions at events held by House members, and were told to organize their events more carefully as well as work with labor unions and other friendly groups to generate enthusiasm.

They also were urged to use these events to stress insurance reforms such as a limit on out-of-pocket expenses for those covered by insurance, a ban on coverage cancellation for the seriously ill and protections for small businesses.

Messina, the deputy White House chief of staff, also said any advertising attack would be met with a bigger response, these officials said.

"If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard," Messina told senators, according to two people in the room.

"It's a challenge, no question about it, and you've got to get out there and make the case," Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., said afterward. "This is not the time for the faint-hearted."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/07/health-punch-back/
Grinch
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118 posted 08-07-2009 01:58 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
And no matter how vague and non-threatening some of the provisions may "seem"


They don't "seem" vague to me Denise, they're pretty clear and I haven't seen one section that contained anything that could be interpreted as "threatening".

Mind you I've actually read the original bill, I dare say the provisions could seem vague and threatening to someone who hasn't read them.

Denise
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119 posted 08-07-2009 02:48 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You are of exceptional intelligence, Grinch. I, like some of our congress folks, have tried, but would need legal counsel to even begin to decypher what we are reading.

What I do know is that this bill represents the biggest intrusion into our lives by the government.
Bob K
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120 posted 08-07-2009 03:40 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

           Most of the Bush speeches were in front of vetted audiences.

Bob Kaven
Grinch
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121 posted 08-07-2009 03:56 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I, like some of our congress folks, have tried, but would need legal counsel to even begin to decypher what we are reading.


Hmm.

Isn't that simply an admission that you don't know what you're talking about? I mean if you can't decipher what it means how do you know it contains all the bad stuff you keep linking to?

Huan Yi
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122 posted 08-07-2009 04:51 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


" Isn't that simply an admission that you don't know what you're talking about?"

Which leaves you, (“The Senator is wrong”), God, and Obama?  Wait a minute,
there is no God . . .

Not sure I'm comfortable with that.


.
Grinch
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123 posted 08-07-2009 05:55 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Huan,

I agree you shouldn't be comfortable with taking the word of somebody else, that's why I said this:

quote:
The devil is indeed in the detail, and the detail in this case isn't that hard to find, it's written down in black and white in the text of the bill. Don't take the word of somebody who hasn't read it, don't even take the word of someone who has read it - like me. Go read it yourself, make your own mind up.


For all you know I'm as dumb as the senator you quoted.

Luckily the truth is in black and white in the text of the bill. All we, that's you, Mike, Denise, the senator and me have to do is read it. It isn't written in ancient Greek, Aramaic or Klingon - it's in English and available all over the Internet. I've read it and I maintain that:

It doesn't say that people are going to be forced to go to suicide lessons
It doesn't say that treatment is going to be withheld based on age.
It doesn't say that you'll be forced to take the government Option.

If you've read it and believe that it does post the section and page and I'll be happy to discuss it.

Huan Yi
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124 posted 08-07-2009 06:16 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Well, people, (even dumb US Senators), can have different interpretations,
as can future superior being bureaucrats.  As a wise man said:

"It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is."

.


 
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