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Passions in Poetry

Oh, those Little Details!!

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Grinch
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25 posted 07-30-2009 07:11 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


You could be right Ess.

Maybe Mike will drop in and explain the phenomenon in more depth. I've noticed that it happens a lot and would be interested to find out why people seem so ready to suspend disbelief and lend so much credence to the patently ridiculous without even a cursory check to confirm whether what they're promoting is true.


.
Huan Yi
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26 posted 07-30-2009 08:22 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Then let a paragraph be added denying the misunderstanding so completely that no future
can claim to read differently.

.
Bob K
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27 posted 07-30-2009 08:54 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Can't be done, Huan Yi.  The nature of paranoid thinking is that it cannot be falsified or tested..  Any conclusion is further proof of the initial conclusion, no matter how contrary it may seem.

     Paranoid thinking is thinking under pressure of panic.  I tend to go with the Sullivanian view of unbearable anxiety rather than the Freudian view of homosexual panic.  But if the thinking slows down or widens out, typically the person becomes vulnerable to feelings that may be very difficult to bear, and the tight rapid circular thinking tends to keep these feelings outside the area of consciousness.

     If you want to talk about therapeutic approaches and management, that's outside the thread I think.  

     But that would be why the notion of an unmistakable explanation is one that doesn't tend to work.  It simply offers the new explanation as more material to be included in the scary stuff with which others are trying to fool us.

     But then you already knew that, didn't you, Huan Yi!

     (Sorry, a small paranoia joke there.  I couldn't help myself.)

Yours, Bob Kaven
Balladeer
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28 posted 07-31-2009 01:02 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

grinch, I have no desire to further discuss any issue with you so comments directed to me are a waste of time.
Grinch
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29 posted 07-31-2009 04:32 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Well that's certainly one way of dodging the issue Mike, a tad dramatic but whatever floats your boat.

If you don't mind I'll continue to post my opinions and views though. You never know having an opposing point of view might actually be useful to someone reading these threads. If not they can ignore them too; it's a free country.

Denise
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30 posted 07-31-2009 07:30 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Scary Stuff:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105525

Analysis of Plan:
http://www.liberty.edu/media/9980/attachments/healthcare_overview_obama_072909.pdf
Bob K
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31 posted 07-31-2009 09:03 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




Dear Denise,

          If these nitwits are lying so blatantly about the health care proxy and advanced care directives that I discussed at length above, I can hardly begin to imagine what distortions and lies they are telling about the rest of this stuff.

     The problem with reading folks who are in the business of scaring you, Denise, is that you can count on them to try their hardest to do exactly that.  After you've gotten you daily dose of fear and anxiety, though, why not read some sources that at least try to be objective.  These folks are trying to scare you by quoting their own opinion pieces as though they were researched fact pieces.  At least when I tell you about advanced directives, I've had some experience with them and know about them at least a bit.  Nobody has ever tried to talk me into killing myself.  One puff headed idiot tried to talk my wife into putting her dad onto a ventilator, which would have helped the hospital manage him, but wouldn't have helped her dad or the rest of us at all.  We told him to take a hike.

     Truth be told, if we had it might have prolonged her dad's life a little, perhaps it might not have; but we were all very clear that he did not want that sort of thing.  We'd spoken to him about it and we were all very clear about his wishes and we had a clear advanced directive from him, so the doctor couldn't have gone behind our backs for his convenience.  We were all able to say goodbye to each other in a decent manner.

     Denise, you look at this stuff and you stop reading and trying to understand what's going on.. It's not like there aren't things to be frightened about out there, just try to get more of a balance in your information diet.  Stay critical of the Democrats, certainly; simply start being critical of the Republicans as well.  For that matter, be critical of the independents.  You're doing fine with the democrats, though I do disagree with you about some of your conclusions.  So what!  Simply add a little extra suspicion as well.  Is that asking too much?  Not to be too trusting of folks in general?

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Denise
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32 posted 07-31-2009 09:39 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Bob, the government does not belong in these matters. If someone wants to do an advance directive, fine. The government has no business pushing people in that direction.

Provisions in this bill also give the government direct live access to patient's financial records and bank accounts for electronic funds transactions. What does that have to do with reforming healthcare?

This is the only analysis of the plan that I have seen. Can you provide something similar from another source?

I have heard opinions from two differnet doctors this week. One said that one of my coworker would no longer be able to receive her shots in her hip for bursitis if/when this plan goes into effect since she is medicare age. Another's husband was told today that since he is 65 he will go to the back of the line when it comes to appointments, and that my coworker's mother would not have been able to get her emergency iliostomy since she is 87 years old. So that means she would have been slowly poisened to death? And given pain pills, I'm sure. Maybe offered a fatal dose of Morphine? Don't you see anything even remotely immoral in this, the government madating who will be treated and what they will receive?

Denise
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33 posted 07-31-2009 09:46 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Being told to take a pain pill for an arrhythmia is like being told to put an ice pack on your head for a broken hip. One has nothing to do with the other, so how can someone say it may be the better route to take, Grinch?
Huan Yi
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34 posted 07-31-2009 09:47 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"The problem with reading folks who are in the business of scaring you, Denise, is that you can count on them to try their hardest to do exactly that"


Gee, who comes to mind . . .


.
Grinch
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35 posted 08-01-2009 07:02 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Being told to take a pain pill for an arrhythmia is like being told to put an ice pack on your head for a broken hip. One has nothing to do with the other, so how can someone say it may be the better route to take


Denise,

Unless the medical condition known as Cardiac arrhythmia is different from Cardiac arrhythmia in the UK then they have everything to do with each other.

Cardiac arrhythmia is a term that covers a whole host of conditions where abnormal electrical impulses cause the heart to beat in an irregular pattern, sometimes quicker sometimes slower. Some cases are symptomatic of a more serious condition others are harmless but worrying natural fluctuations which can be classed as normal variants. Palpitations due to chemical imbalance falls into this category.

The causes of this blanket condition are as many and varied as other conditions that describe a general symptom rather than a specific ailment. Take cephalalgia, that's a headache to you and me. Cephalalgia has many causes, from the mudane to the serious, depending on the cause the treatment is different. If you've just returned from a rock concert a pill and a sleep might fix it, if you drank a little too much the night before plenty of fluids and an icepack might be better. If however you've got a brain tumour then unfortunately surgery may be necessary. What you wouldn't expect is to receive surgery every time you went to a rock concert or drank a little too much.

As it happens I suffered from Cardiac arrhythmia a couple of years ago, which is why I got interested in the condition enough to find out as much as I could about it. More recently my sister suffered from it too - neither of us had a pacemaker fitted. She was given a course of drugs to fix a chemical imbalance and I had surgery to fix a blocked artery. On the other hand my friend did have a pacemaker fitted when he suffered from it, I guess what I'm saying is that the treatment needs to fit the cause.

In the case of pacemakers for Cardiac arrhythmia it's a suitable treatment for some but not a panacea for all. In the US however statistics show that doctors fit them at a greater rate than other countries, and just to drill home the fact studies have concluded that in at least 30% of the cases they weren’t necessay.

Given the fact that doctors are fitting pacemakers when they don't really need to you have to ask why. I believe that it's due to the constant fear of litigation, which in the US seems to be a national passtime.

Given all the above I think the statement your president made:

perhaps a pain pill instead of surgery is the better route to take

Makes perfect sense and is more than reasonable.

What do you think?

.
Denise
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36 posted 08-01-2009 09:19 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think medication to remedy a chemical imbalance is not a pain pill, and I think Obama does not know what he is talking about.

I think that studies showing 30% of pacemakers were unnecessary is due to fear of litigation. We need tort reform, not government takeover of our healthcare system.

I think that anyone 65 and older will be denied most care on a cost/benefit anaylysis. And I think that the politicians believe that they have ocme up with a solution to relieve the system of the stress to it by the aging of the baby boomers.

I think that our first class medical care will deteriorate to the level of Europe and Canada and that our lifespans will follow suit.

I think most of our politicians will be voted out in 2010 if they press foeward in the Fall for passage of this montrosity of a bill.

Grinch
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37 posted 08-01-2009 10:13 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
I think medication to remedy a chemical imbalance is not a pain pill, and I think Obama does not know what he is talking about.


If the chemical imbalance is causing pain any pill that removes that pain can, quite rightly, be called a pain pill.

quote:
I think that studies showing 30% of pacemakers were unnecessary is due to fear of litigation. We need tort reform


Yes you need tort reform.

quote:
not government takeover of our healthcare system


But that isn't what is being proposed Denise, what's being proposed is a reform of your health care system, which, everyone seems to agree, is also required.

quote:
I think that anyone 65 and older will be denied most care on a cost/benefit anaylysis.


They will definitely be denied some care, but that already happens under the current system, it will happen under any system. What this bill will do is allow more care.

quote:
I think that the politicians believe that they have ocme up with a solution to relieve the system of the stress to it by the aging of the baby boomers.


I agree. The current system can't continue, it requires reform before it collapses through lack of funds. This bill is a proposal to avoid that.

quote:
I think that our first class medical care will deteriorate to the level of Europe and Canada and that our lifespans will follow suit.


Life expectancy in the US is 2.6 years less than in Canada and 1.3 years less than life expectancy in the UK. It's 3 years less than Sweden, 2 years less than Germany and 3.1 years less than france.

The world health organisation ranks the US 37th as far as health care provision is concerned, just below Costa Rica and Dominica. Canada is 30th, the UK is 18th and France is number one.

Under your "first class medical system" I'd be walking around a house I could no longer afford with a pacemaker I didn't need.

quote:
I think most of our politicians will be voted out in 2010 if they press foeward in the Fall for passage of this montrosity of a bill.


Maybe, one thing's for sure if they don't pass it your health care system is likely to collapse completely in the next 5 to 10 years.

Sorry about all the quotes Denise but I wanted to clearly answer each point specifically and it's often the easiest way.
.
Denise
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38 posted 08-01-2009 03:39 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

This bill will allow more care in the sense that more people will have health coverage, including millions of illegal aliens, as well as 'end-of-life' counseling for seniors.

The some care that this bill will deny is life-saving care to people 65 and over because they won't pass the cost/benefit ratio establiished by the bureaucrats.

Many factors figure into life expectancy rates, probably the strongest being genetics, followed closely by lifesytle and accessibility to health care. Since America is a nation of immigrants, it's life excpectancy averages are effected by the various ethnic differences of the population. But White Americans have the same rates as those of Western Eruope. And a lack of life-saving health care to our senior citizens will have a detrimental impact on the overall rates.

Our system will not collapse in 5 to 10 years without this bill. They need to go back to the drawing board and come up with something better, something that actually addresses the problems, like insurance issues and tort reform, not something that denies care to save money.

Grinch
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39 posted 08-01-2009 04:23 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Our system will not collapse in 5 to 10 years without this bill


Your system will collapse Denise unless something is done, you can't sustain the cost, so what do you suggest instead of this bill Denise?

Or are you suggesting that you just continue on regardless?

.
Denise
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40 posted 08-01-2009 04:51 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Didn't you read what I said above? They need to go back to the drawing board and address the real problems with insurance issues, tort reform, etc. We don't need this bill which will lead to a government takeover.
Denise
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41 posted 08-01-2009 05:03 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdx_2cuPgQQ&feature=player_embedded
Grinch
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42 posted 08-01-2009 05:51 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Sorry Denise, to be honest I ignored most of your last post largely because most of it has already been proven to be a total fabrication debunked on numerous occasions.

I don't mind going over it one more time though if you like.

quote:
including millions of illegal aliens


The bill I read refers to legal residents of the United States - if you've found a section that allows coverage to illegal aliens post the page and section and I'll be happy to check it out again.

quote:
'end-of-life' counseling for seniors


The bill certainly proposes that costs for sessions explaining living wills will, in future, be paid for and included as standard in all health schemes. At present such counselling is either paid for by the individual or, begrudgingly by health insurance companies.

quote:
The some care that this bill will deny is life-saving care to people 65 and over because they won't pass the cost/benefit ratio establiished by the bureaucrats.


As I understand it the comparative analysis and cost analysis suggested is to compare types of treatment not to rate the requirement and eligibility of individuals. This goes back to our pacemaker conversation, if you compare the minimum $12,000 cost of a pacemaker against the $3 pain pill the pain pill wins in a cost/benefit analysis in 30% of the 200000 + cases of pacemakers fitted last year.

What you are actually talking about isn't, as far as I recall, even in the bill. It's a presumption based on similar health schemes such as the NHS. The NHS certainly does restrict treatment for high cost low benefit treatments. Individual cases are judged by an independent but government funded board called NICE.

You have the same restrictions in the US Denise, yours are currently decided by private health insurers who decide which treatment is allowed and which isn't.

This pretty much explains it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/magazine/19healthcare-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2

It's fairly lengthy but worth reading, I've checked out most of the data contained in it, I could nitpick a few of their figures but, on the whole, they'd be inconsequential nits.

quote:
But White Americans have the same rates as those of Western Eruope


Congratulations, unfortunately western Europe has a large population of non-caucasians too so you don't get points for claiming a case of apples and oranges.

We can get into the specific demographics if you like, but I'd rather suggest that race, creed or colour shouldn't even come into it. The aim should be that everyone is healthier and lives longer. Saying that white Americans live long and healthy lives sort of suggests that black and hispanic Americans don't - are you ok with that? Surely the goal should be to at least aim for equality.

.
Denise
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43 posted 08-01-2009 08:20 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Of course the aim should be longer lives for everyone, but I don't create the statistics, and as I shared earlier, genetics plays a big role. Asians live the longest, followed by Hispanics, then Whites, then American Indians and then Blacks. And of course, lifestyle and income levels are contributing factors as well.

The Attorneys at Liberty Counsel read and analyzed the bill, which I provided in an earlier link:
http://www.liberty.edu/media/9980/attachments/healthcare_overview_obama_072909.pdf

And just like Senator Conyers, I must rely on attorney interpretation to understand anything the way this bill is written, and believe me, I've tried. Here is a portion of their analysis:

Sec. 113, Pg. 21-22 of the Health Care (HC) Bill MANDATES a government audit of the books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self-insure in order to “ensure that the law does not provide incentives for small and mid-size employers to self-insure”!

• Sec. 122, Pg. 29, Lines 4-16 - YOUR HEALTH CARE WILL BE RATIONED!

• Sec. 123, Pg. 30 - THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE deciding what treatments and benefits you get.

• Sec. 142, Pg. 42 - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your benefits for you. You have no choice!

• Sec. 152, Pg. 50-51 - HC will be provided to ALL NON-US citizens.

• Sec. 163, Pg. 58-59 beginning at line 5 - Government will have real-time access to individual’s finances & a National ID health care card will be issued!

• Sec. 163, Pg. 59, Lines 21-24 - Government will have direct access to your bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

• Sec. 164, Pg. 65 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions & community organizations (ACORN).

• Sec. 201, Pg. 72, Lines 8-14 - Government is creating an HC Exchange to bring private plans under government control.

This is just way too much government in our lives.

And I suspect that ayone 65 or older will get no treatment of any kind other than pain pills, since that will be the 'best route' going by a cost/benefit analysis. Rationing is rationing, whether Obama tells the Governors to avoid using that word or not.
Denise
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44 posted 08-01-2009 08:37 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Do you think they will handle health care better than they handling the cash for clunkers? God help us.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090801/D99Q3N5G1.html
Bob K
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45 posted 08-02-2009 04:43 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




Dear Denise,

           Thanks for using AP.  I liked the article.

     You seem to see the program as a failure.

     I see it putting a lot of money exactly where it needs to be put to help get the wheels turning again.

     I'm quite possibly wrong on this one, but it feels to me more like an accidental success than an incompetent failure.  I think if we wait a little while and see what the outcome is for this, we'll both have more information.

     Hope the Grandkids are thriving and that you're having a ball with them.

All my best, Bob Kaven
Grinch
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46 posted 08-02-2009 07:19 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Thanks for the specific sections and line numbers Denise, they're exactly what I needed.

I'll read through them, do a bit of research, and try to supply a plain English interpretation of what they mean. It may take me a while though, my wife has just given me one of her famous "to do" lists.

Denise
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47 posted 08-02-2009 08:18 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Thanks, Bob, the grandkids are doing well. I haven't seen them this week though. They are having fun at the beach!

With the Cash for Clunkers deal I was focused more on their poor management of it, the 'tax-form' difficult forms that the dealers must submit on each transaction, the length of time it is taking for them to electronically submit each one, and the large number coming back as 'rejected'. An administrative nightmare that only the government can devise. And let's not forget their under-estimation of how much it would cost. Now they are requesting $2 Billion more.

I don't think this program will have much long term benefit to the economy - just till the next cash infusion runs out. It also doesn't seem to me that it will bode well for those whose income levels push them to the used car lot. The inventory of used cars will be down and prices for what is there will go up.

Enjoy Grinch!
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48 posted 08-02-2009 08:40 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

There were car dealers on tv down here worried. They have been participating in this, and absorbing the rebates while waiting for the government to re-imburse them...and it hasn't been coming and they're worried. Some of them are in bad financial straits because of it.
Grinch
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49 posted 08-02-2009 09:15 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

OK she's still writing the list so I've managed to look up two of the claims - I'll be back with the rest ASAP.




Sec. 113, Pg. 21-22 of the Health Care (HC) Bill MANDATES a government audit of the books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self-insure in order to “ensure that the law does not provide incentives for small and mid-size employers to self-insure”!

True.

It doesn't actually say "books" though. It says that the Commissioner will report on the solvency and coverage of large group and self-insured company schemes. The details of both are a matter of public record - you could do it yourself if you really wanted to.

The reason to include this report is simple. The bill is trying to create a minimum standard, it has access to private schemes and the new public schemes but without this report the self-insurers could slip by without being of the minimum level. Conversely there's a danger that some self-insurers are promising their employees benefits that they can't possibly pay for - hence the solvency check.

If they didn't include this it would create a loophole or "incentive" for unscrupulous employers to create a self-insured or large group schemes that were below standard or under funded.


• Sec. 122, Pg. 29, Lines 4-16 - YOUR HEALTH CARE WILL BE RATIONED!

Untrue

This section simply states that the claimant's co-payment contribution will not exceed $5000 for an individual and $10000 for a family. It also states that the common practice of co-insurance, which can cost a claimant a large amount of money, will not be allowed.

Currently to stop people, mainly hypochondriacs, abusing the system by claiming treatment they don't really need the insurance companies levy a charge or co-payment to dissuade fruitcakes from clogging up the system. Sometimes they do this by using co-insurance instead of predefined co-payments. Co-insurance basically allows the insurers to set a maximum percentage that they will pay - the rest is payable by the claimant. Co-insurance is a bad thing which can leave a claiment with a massive bill which is why the bill stipulates that it shouldn't be used.

Back later.

.
 
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