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Passions in Poetry

Oh, those Little Details!!

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Balladeer
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300 posted 08-23-2009 10:18 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Library - health care
Reading room - abortion

Ah, yes. I can see the equality now. Thanks for pointing it out. Your record of making sensible comparisons remains constant.
Grinch
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301 posted 08-23-2009 10:25 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


No problem Mike.

I don't mind taking the time to point out your mistakes.

It's what friends are for.



BTW, you still haven't told us whether you still believe in all that twaddle you posted at the start of this thread. Do you still believe that the government is going to force old folk to attend suicide clinic?

.
Balladeer
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302 posted 08-23-2009 10:27 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Until a bill has been voted in or out, it can't be considered finalized.   True enough, Ron, but there is no bill to be voted on...at last count there were three. Why not go to the American people and say "This is the final draft of the bill Congress will vote on concerning your health care"? Then valid questions could be asked and answered. Does that seem unreasonable?

They're still legal, aren't they? Yes, Ron, they are, but you're not paying for them. Are you ready to begin?

Are you suggesting we should add a third alternative and let some people die? That seems to be Obama's plan in a nutshell.
Balladeer
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303 posted 08-23-2009 10:29 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, Grinch, the government is not. Obama has since stricken that part from the bill....the polls, you know.
Grinch
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304 posted 08-23-2009 10:32 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Obama has since stricken that part from the bill


Rat-a-tat-tat

It was never there in the first place Mike - it was a lie.

Ron
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305 posted 08-23-2009 10:59 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
They're still legal, aren't they? Yes, Ron, they are, but you're not paying for them. Are you ready to begin?

I'm not crazy about being forced to pay for ANY medical procedure, Mike. I'm still the guy who thinks people should pay their own way, remember? Insurance, in any form, is evil.

However, if I'm going to have to pay one person's medical bills for them, I don't think that person should be able to tell me not to pay someone else's medical bill just because they ostensibly don't like the procedure or the person. If we're going to have bread and circuses, let's at least be fair about it.


Balladeer
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306 posted 08-23-2009 11:31 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

OK, grinch, they have stated publicly that they have eliminated that part of the bill that was never there...sounds good to me.

Our conversations have taken their same predictable path....carry on without me.
Grinch
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307 posted 08-23-2009 12:04 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Our conversations have taken their same predictable path


I know - odd isn't it - you make a claim, I shoot it down then you wander off to sulk for a while.

Like you say - very predictable.

Balladeer
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308 posted 08-23-2009 12:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Even your insults are predictable, Grinch.

We are done here.
Ron
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309 posted 08-23-2009 12:32 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
they have stated publicly that they have eliminated that part of the bill

Do you have a link to that, Mike? I'd love to read it.
Local Rebel
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310 posted 08-23-2009 12:42 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

However, if I'm going to have to pay one person's medical bills for them, I don't think that person should be able to tell me not to pay someone else's medical bill just because they ostensibly don't like the procedure or the person. If we're going to have bread and circuses, let's at least be fair about it.



As I understand the proposals right now Ron, it's a question of buckets of money.  There would be, as proposed, different public plans one could choose.  One plan would cover abortions, one wouldn't.  Assuming a model where the insured's premiums are used within that plan to pay claims-- a person's money (or government money for that matter) who didn't want to participate in a plan that covered abortions -- wouldn't be paying for any abortions.

If, on the other hand, the public option is to be treated like medicare and medicaid today -- that is; merely lumped into the general fund -- then it could be argued that 'government' funded abortions were taking place.  I think the offensiveness of this prospect to some of the voters would be undesirable.  

It can also be legitimately argued under such a scenario -- that regardless of which plan one chose to enroll under -- if tax money being paid by the top 2% is being used to subsidize the premiums for those falling below 300% of the poverty line -- then tax-dollars would be used in some instances to pay for abortions.

I think this is one of the few legitimate points to debate in this issue, and it's one where the Dems aren't being completely honest with the public -- if not with themselves.
Local Rebel
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311 posted 08-23-2009 01:09 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Obama is touting his health plan. The minions he sends out to town hall meetings are touting his health plan. The Democrats are praising his health plan.......and there is no health plan! That certainly gives Obama and company nice wiggle room, doesn't it? Sebilius can't be expected to answer  questions about the health plan...because there is no health plan. Obama is outraged that there are lies about a health plan that doesn't exist. Participants at the town hall meeting are branded as terrorists, Nazis, organized crime and right wing conspiratists by demanding to know what is in a health plan that doesn't exist. Obama demanded that COngress pass his health care plan before they recessed, even though there was no health plan.



No Mike.  Obama is not touting 'his' health plan -- and I think that's one of the problems this process has faced.  He took the lesson too well from the HillaryCare plan and hasn't submitted a plan at all -- leaving all the work to the Congress and Senate.  

What he is doing is talking about what kind of a bill he'd be willing to sign into law when it comes to his desk, and, he's talking about the lies that are proliferating through the media about details that are not in any of the proposals in the House or Senate.  

What the President has talked about was eliminating waste from Medicare by looking at what procedures work best and advising Doctors and patients about the best outcomes and treatments -- as modeled by the Mayo clinic.  John McCain just today -- on 'This Week' made a total train wreck out of the issue by denouncing that very thing -- and then a few paragraphs later saying we need to cut waste out of medicare.  Now -- which one is it Mike?  Do we need to cut government spending or not?

The status quo is -- fight with your insurance company for whatever tests, treatments, or medications your doctor wants to perform/prescribe.

Now -- who has the best motive to authorize a treatment (which, by the way is never done under Medicare -- doctors simply do what they want without pre-authorization) a CEO and board of directors who are interested in quarterly earnings, salaries, and bonuses -- or elected officials who will stand or fall by the vote of the people who are receiving health coverage?
Grinch
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312 posted 08-23-2009 02:09 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
the public option is to be treated like medicare and medicaid today -- that is; merely lumped into the general fund


Based on everything I've read LR this is how it's supposed to work although my understanding us that there will be 5 public health plans (or options) available, ranging from the base level minimum standard up to a super-inclusive plan. So far none of the plans have been formalised and they won't be until the proposed commission outlined in the bill is set up to decide what each will cover. If that's the case all, some or none of the available plans might include cover for abortions, we simply don't know at this point.

The Dems are shuffling their feet on this issue when they don't really need to. Whether abortion, in-growing toenails or breast enlargement are covered in the public plans should be an argument debated under the auspices of the commission at a later date. In my opinion they should be saying that loud and clear to clear up the confusion.

.
Local Rebel
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313 posted 08-23-2009 05:42 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Under the Capps amendment Grinch, public plans that include abortion would be allowed -- but federal subsidies to cover them would be dis-allowed.  The decision as to what coverage would go into what plan would be ultimately the decision of the Secretary of Health and Human Services, who works, of course, for the President.  

So, the legislation as it stands right now would put it in the President's hands -- who says there is no truth to the allegation that abortions will be covered by Federal tax dollars.  Technically true -- but a tad too ambiguous and a little bit of accounting slight of hand going on if you ask me.

There is enough dis-ingenuousness going on in this debate already coming from the right -- why not put the buck down and say we're simply not going to do it?  The house narrowly defeated the Stupak amendment which would have kept abortion out of the public option -- which was a mistake in my opinion.  This would have been a great way, and still would be, to bring along the blue dogs.

The concern is that there are millions of women now who have abortion coverage through their employer supplied insurance that would lose it if they were enrolled in the public plan through either the choice of their employer -- or in the event they were unemployed.

I think the easy way to do this is to merely leave abortion coverage in the realm of the private insurance plans -- that could be purchased as a supplement to whatever public option one is enrolled in -- of course with the public plans still allowing for coverage of abortion in cases of rape or incest as originally outlined in the Hyde amendment back in the 70's.

As usual -- two good sources for separating fact from friction --
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/07/john-boehner/boehner-says-democrats-health-care-plan-would-lead/
http://factcheck.org/2009/08/abortion-which-side-is-fabricating/

Denise
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314 posted 08-23-2009 05:45 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Since this plan/non-plan, otherwise known as HR3200, the only one released so far and ready to go to the floor for a vote as soon as Congress reconvenes, it having passed all the necessary committees, has provisions in it for a Board to call the shots on coverage, payments, fee schedules, etc., and all amendments to address the concerns of the citizens regarding abortion and illegal alien coverage have been thrown out, I'd say it's a pretty good bet that those will be covered. If the government wants to do that, fine, as long as our tax dollars don't go to paying for it. And that's what they are saying right now, isn't it, that this plan will be deficit neutral? Anyone want to place a wager on that one?

That's about as true a statement as the one they keep touting that if you like your insurance you can keep it, if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor. What about those of us who have already been told by our employers that we can't keep our current insurance, that they will pay the 8% and put us all in the public option or government co-ops? And the CBO said millions will find themselves in that position if this particular bill is passed.

No Ron, there is another option. Pay for emergency care only for illegals just prior to their deportation.

How about this for a plan: We have the government offer government insurance, optional, of course, in a free society, to those who need insurance and can't get it elsewhere, and leave the rest of us the hell alone.

No, but that won't do, will it, because health coverage for the uninsured is not the issue with them. Controlling the entire system is their aim.
Balladeer
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315 posted 08-23-2009 05:45 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, Ron, I don;t have a link. I watched on This Week with George S.

Do we stick with the status quo that over 70% of Americans say they are satisfied with? Good question. In a country where one child in a classroom objecting to having God in the Pledge of Allegiance  can cause the school to stop using it, I suppose so.

Yes, LR, we need to cut government spending. We also need to cut government takeovers. The issue is not whether or not we need health care reform. The issue is...is government takeover the solution? The government says nothing about reigning in the insurance companies, the pharmaseuticals or tort reform. They say nothing about the estimated 700 million dollars annually lost to fraud. They simply say, "Let us run it". There are many areas they can go after to streamline the system. Have you heard them say anything about tort reform, for example? Is that mentioned in the bill somewhere? Can any reasonable person look at the government's plan and not see it's designed to put private insurance out of business? Can any reasonable person look at it and not see that it will add more to the deficit? Obama's government wants to run the show....period. Look at the outrage by Democrats at the mere suggestion by  Obama that the public option is not essential. Pelosi had a cow! They just want to run it, whether it is better or not for the American people. Obama doesn;t want to run it the same way he doesn;t want to run the auto companies....and then proceeds to run the auto companies.

People deserve to know what the final bill will contain and when the Health Secretary can't even explain it because SHE doesn;t know what it will contain, there's a problem.
Local Rebel
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316 posted 08-23-2009 06:29 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

That's about as true a statement as the one they keep touting that if you like your insurance you can keep it, if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor. What about those of us who have already been told by our employers that we can't keep our current insurance, that they will pay the 8% and put us all in the public option or government co-ops? And the CBO said millions will find themselves in that position if this particular bill is passed.



This merely points to the obvious Denise -- that you don't have any choice right now.  Your only choice is to quit and go somewhere else -- or somehow come up with the money to buy an individual plan.

Back in 1993 I found myself in the unenviable position of trying to turn around a company that was facing newly-found competition due to the falling of the iron-curtain and certain technological advances that made the distance from there to here unnoticeable.

I had to take the company down from around 100 employees to six -- to focus on a particular market segment that I could defend through pure talent and automation.

The problem that I didn't expect was that health insurance -- even then -- would shoot me in the foot.

I no longer had enough employees to buy group coverage -- which I knew would be the case -- but what I didn't know was how difficult it was going to be to obtain individual policies for my remaining people.  

Ultimately I wasn't able to do it -- not from a cost standpoint -- which was tremendous in and of itself -- but because when these key players were 'screened' for coverage it couldn't be bought at any price.

One was too overweight.  One had diabetes.  One had cancer that was in remission -- you get the picture.

While you'll find me agreeing Denise -- that you'll have about as much choice about what health coverage your employer has as you do now -- which is none -- I disagree that you won't be able to keep your doctor.... in fact -- it's going to be easier to choose a doctor.

I remember when I went to work for a company with an HMO -- try keeping the doctor you want under one of those.

quote:

How about this for a plan: We have the government offer government insurance, optional, of course, in a free society, to those who need insurance and can't get it elsewhere, and leave the rest of us the hell alone.



I'm completely in agreement Denise -- and that's what's being proposed -- the only difference you notice is that if it's left to your employer to provide the coverage -- you don't have an option now -- under a public option (let's just call it medicare for anybody who wants to buy into it) you'll have access to it.

quote:

No, but that won't do, will it, because health coverage for the uninsured is not the issue with them. Controlling the entire system is their aim.



I disagree. In fact -- I wish it was more the aim.  A single payer system would be much more efficient than the compromise position the President and Max Baucus started from.  But even at that -- single payer isn't National Health Care -- it's just the insurance company that would be paying private doctors and medical institutions for their services rendered.

Mike -- show me where tort reform has done anything to reduce premiums anywhere -- let's start with the State that has the most radical Tort reform -- Texas -- get me the facts.  Or Missouri -- Or Indiana.  

quote:

Can any reasonable person look at the government's plan and not see it's designed to put private insurance out of business?



Yes.  Private insurers exist even in countries that have national systems.  If they can provide a supplemental or superior coverage here -- they will be able to 'survive'.  But 'survival' isn't the aim of these companies is it -- protecting their bloated profits they extort from us is. I haven't seen Fed Ex or UPS shutting their doors and grounding fleets -- have you?

quote:

Can any reasonable person look at it and not see that it will add more to the deficit?



Yes -- because this is being done two ways -- the reduction in unnecessary spending takes care of 500 billion Mike --  that leaves about 250 billion or so to be taken care of by eliminating the Bush tax cuts -- and of course the premiums that will be paid by the insured.  Of course when the Republicans wanted to pass Medicare part D -- the prescription drug coverage -- they didn't care about adding a trillion dollars to the deficit -- or controlling the costs of the drugs -- they just did it and gave us the bill.  You should feel good this time that the Dems are approaching the solution in a fiscally responsible manner.    

quote:

Obama's government wants to run the show....period. Look at the outrage by Democrats at the mere suggestion by  Obama that the public option is not essential. Pelosi had a cow! They just want to run it, whether it is better or not for the American people.



When you contradict yourself that quickly Mike it just really leaves me with nowhere to go.
Balladeer
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317 posted 08-23-2009 06:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

show me where tort reform has done anything to reduce premiums anywhere

You'll have to show me where tort reform has been initiated at all. Do you not think that exhorbant lawyer fees and multi-million dollar lawsuits fit into the cost of premiums? Really? You don't think the cost of mal-practice insurance figures into premiums? Then you must not feel that major stores do not fit the costs of shoplifting into their prices as an off-set. Tort reform certainly would lower premiums...if it were ever done.

Ron, here's one. There are others..

Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA), ranking member on the Senate Finance Committee, announced yesterday that the end-of-life counseling provision would be removed from the proposed House health care bill.

The provision provided for Medicare to pay for counseling on advance directives, such as living wills and durable powers of attorney, but in recent days Republican “deathers,” such as Sarah Palin, have misled the public with scare tactics, by making false claims that the counseling sessions amounted to “death panels” that would kill seniors.

Sen. Grassley said the provision was dropped, because it “could be misinterpreted.” And he later added, “Maybe others can defend a bill like the Pelosi bill that leaves major issues open to interpretation, but I can’t.”
http://chattahbox.com/us/2009/08/14/end-of-life-c ounseling-removed-from-bill-after-deathers-falsely-say-it-would-kill-granny/
Local Rebel
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318 posted 08-23-2009 06:45 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I already gave you three states that have enacted Tort Reform Mike.  You want more -- okay:
http://uspolitics.about.com/library/bl_tort_reform_state_table.htm

Of course these costs are considered -- and they represent somewhere between 1 and 2 percent of the costs of our healthcare system.  The only problem Mike -- is that when these reforms have been put in place the insurance companies haven't reduced premiums at all -- in fact -- how much have they gone up in the last 10 years?  Nearly 100 per-cent?

It's just nothing to hang your hat on Mike -- and it's an issue you'll recall we discussed at length in the past.
Grinch
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319 posted 08-23-2009 06:48 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


LR,

I thought section 123 of the original bill proposed that the details of the health plans would be formulated by committee. Specifically the newly formed Health Benefits Advisory Committee who would forward their recommendations to the Seretary of Health and Human Services..

Has that been changed to exclude the committee stage?

If so that's definitely a worrying move. One of the things that impressed me was that the public plans would be formulated by a wide range of interested parties. Including representatives of patients, doctors and health care experts.

.
Local Rebel
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320 posted 08-23-2009 06:52 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

That's the thing Grinch -- a committee that forwards recommendations isn't setting the policy -- the Secretary is....who works for the President.
Huan Yi
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321 posted 08-23-2009 06:56 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“One section titled, "What Makes Your Life Worth Living?," offers a checklist of scenarios -- the person filling out the form is asked to rate whether life would be worth living under each of them.

"I am a severe financial burden on my family," says one of them. "My situation causes severe emotional burden for my family," says another. “


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/23/sen-specter-calls-hearings-end-l ife-care-guide-veterans/


It could be in the near future
just a simple cut and paste
from one government brochure to another . . .


.
Denise
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322 posted 08-23-2009 06:57 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I have a choice right now, LR. I can choose from two different plans or choose to have nothing.

The government plan will not allow non- participation. There will be serve penalties for those who can't prove coverage in a 'qualified plan' (definition yet to be determined) at the end of the year when they do their taxes. But they aren't sure yet what the penalty will be. That will be up to Sebelius.

Technically we can choose not to participate, but only in the sense that we can choose not to pay our taxes. Abut the only thing the government is very good at is coercion.

This is another reason that people don't trust the government with life and death decisions:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204683204574358590107981718.html


Denise
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323 posted 08-23-2009 06:59 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I see you beat me to the punch, John!

Grinch
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324 posted 08-23-2009 07:03 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
The provision provided for Medicare to pay for counseling on advance directives, such as living wills and durable powers of attorney, but in recent days Republican “deathers,” such as Sarah Palin, have misled the public with scare tactics, by making false claims that the counseling sessions amounted to “death panels” that would kill seniors.


Thank you for confirming that your original post was a misleading scare tactic and a false claim Mike.


 
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