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Passions in Poetry

Oh, those Little Details!!

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Denise
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225 posted 08-15-2009 05:58 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

A plan that includes tort reform, free-market choices for patients, portability, and ability to purchase insurance without restrictions by geography and elimation of fraud and abuse in the Medicare & Medicaid systems, and is patient centered, would be a big step in the right direction, Grinch. Nothing will be perfect, but the less government bureaucracy the better. Once government entitlement programs are instituted it is difficult if not impossible to dismantle them, but maybe one day, before the system collapses in on itself, Medicare and Medicaid could be phased out over time and vouchers and tax credits given to offset cost of insurance given for those as well.

Just like most of the country, Bob, I was in shock at the intial bailouts by Bush, and then even more so by the subsequent ones by Obama that led to his virtual takeover of banks, insurance companies and the auto industry. Obama isn't cleaning up any mess, he's just making it worse while telling us to shut up and get out of the way so that he can clean up the mess left to him.

As I said before, this issue is the one that broke the camel's back, in that he now wants to take over 1/7 of the U.S. economy through the healtcare bill. His latest power grab has opened the eyes of many, finally, to his M.O.  It's too important and personal of an issue not to scream about. It hits much closer to home than bailouts of impersonal financial institutions.

It wasn't the Republicans (though they spent like drunken Democrats in recent years) that brought us big government socialistic programs like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. We have FDR (New Deal) and LBJ (Great Society) to thank for instituting systems that were economically unsustainable, and have brought us to the point we are today where we have politicians devising schemes to 'off' the elderly.

A week's salary is probably comparable to what most American's give voluntarily during the year toward charities, Bob, some even more. Conservatives tend to give more than liberals, maybe because liberals believe charity should come from the state.

Denise
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226 posted 08-15-2009 06:16 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

“The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.” — Lady Margaret Thatcher
Grinch
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227 posted 08-15-2009 06:49 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Denise,

The bill you suggested wouldn't do a darn thing one-way or the other regarding health care. It's very carefully designed not to.

States aren't obliged to join the scheme, in fact they'd be stupid to consider it, what with all the additional penalties tied into accepting a proportion of the 300,000,000 handouts each year.

How many additional people will gain health care under this bill?

I predict exactly ZERO.

The premise is that an uninsured person buys health cover and they get part of the cost back as a tax credit when they fill in a tax return the following year. That's called a catch 22 situation, they can't afford health care so you offer to pay them back some of it if they pay for all of it first - brilliant!

Unless you're self-employed - in which case you can't claim any of it. You can if you are fully employed and earn up to 3 times the poverty level. Which means if you earn $60,000 a year you can claim but if you're self-employed and earn £13,000 you can't.

Your proposed bill wouldn't reduce the cost of Medicare to any degree greater than Obama's proposal, however Obama's proposal increases the number of people covered, would reduce the cost of existing cover and generates additional revenue.

The only proposal you've suggested so far that makes more economic sense than Obama's bill is the dismantling of Medicare, Medicaid, VA health cover and the other government funded schemes. They wouldn't be that hard to dismantle either Denise. All you'd need to do is pass one simple bill repealing the existing legislation then turn up your TV to drown out the sound of all the riff-raff begging for handouts to pay their health care costs.

Simple solution - end of problem.

Of course the cost of your health care will immediately more than double and the number of health care providers would probably halve but at least you won't be paying other people's bills.

Denise
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228 posted 08-15-2009 08:30 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

If you open up the insurance market nationwide, increase competition for consumer dollars you'll see prices come down. Offer many different plans with different coverage options, deductibles, etc, custom designed for the consumer and watch prices come down.

Keep coverage optional and flexible, ranging from full coverage to catastrophic coverage.

The States should only be involved in the area of the indidgent who can't afford care and in those who are high risk and can't get affordable care independently.

Insurers could also be mandated not to drop people with health issues and mandated not to refuse people with pre-existing conditions tthrough some type of incentive program.

There are many things that could be tried before we give our healthcare system over to the government which has never successfully run anything except into the ground.
Balladeer
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229 posted 08-15-2009 10:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Government suspends 'cash for clunkers' program amid confusion USA Today

These are the people we want to run health care?????
Denise
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230 posted 08-16-2009 07:16 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

What was the confusion, Michael? Did the car dealers actually think that the government was going to reimburse them?
Grinch
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231 posted 08-16-2009 09:51 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Have you got a link Mike?

The only article I can find is from last month when they reported, falsely, that the scheme had been scrapped. Most of the articles say that the scheme is going so well that the money allotted has been trebled.

Perhaps that's where the confusion has come from.

Huan Yi
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232 posted 08-16-2009 09:56 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“In Britain, they use a “Quality-Adjusted Life Year” formula to decide that you don’t really need that new knee because you’re gonna die in a year or two, maybe a decade-and-a-half tops. So it’s in the national interest for you to go around hobbling in pain rather than divert “finite resources” away from productive members of society to a useless old geezer like you. And you’d be surprised how quickly geezerdom kicks in: A couple of years back, some Quebec facilities were attributing death from hospital-contracted infection of anyone over 55 to “old age.””

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OTAxYzFjODdiN2E3OWUyNzY1MDU1ODM1ZjZjYmY3YjM=


“Quality-Adjusted Life Year” formula

How does that work?


.


Balladeer
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233 posted 08-16-2009 10:14 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually, I don't have a link and I apologize for that. The story was on my Yahoo home page under the Top Stories from USA Today. I read the story and then made my entry here. Around 10 minutes later, it dawned on me that I should have included the link and I went back but the headlines had been updated by others. My mistake...

Balladeer
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234 posted 08-16-2009 10:30 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ok, my brain is awake enough now to use my computer history to find it

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-07-30-cash-for-clunkers-program-suspended_N.htm?obref=obnetwork

The Obama administration promised Friday that the financially strapped "cash for clunkers" program would be alive at least through the weekend, and the House of Representatives approved additional money for the program later in the day.

Before the vote, John McEleney, chairman of the National Automobile Dealers Association, said many dealers have been confused about whether the program will be extended and for how long. Many stopped offering the deals Thursday after word came out that the funds available for the refunds had been exhausted.

"We are hoping for some clarity from the White House and Congress before the day is over," McEleney said Friday.

Carmakers and dealers have booked expensive advertising to capitalize on buyers' interest in CARS, and now will be left promoting a tie-in with an uncertain government program — one that wasn't supposed to end until Nov. 1. "Disappointed," said Chrysler spokesman Scott Brown.

"It's too late to recall the ads," says Beau Boeckmann of Galpin Ford, the nation's largest Ford dealer, in Los Angeles. Galpin had done about 100 clunker deals and was hoping for more. " We had increased our ad budget to get the word out. We are very heavy on radio, newspaper and getting direct mail together," Boeckmann says.

"Now what do you tell people when they walk in" for a clunker deal? "It's tough."

Some dealers had stepped back, worried the program would go broke before paying them. "If you don't have an absolute guarantee of payment, you could be left floating a lot of money" in anticipation of federal CARS reimbursements, says Peter Greiner, a Ford dealer in Casper, Wyo. "They made the right call," says Will Churchill, a Honda and General Motors dealer in Fort Worth. "The government doesn't have any idea how big this deal is."


That seems to be the main issue. The government finally came up with a good thing and miscalculated it completely and now the dealers and the public are in limbo through the government's lack of planning. Seems like I've heard that before. Oh, yes...when the unemployment figures didn't go down based on Obama's expectations. The reason? They "miscalulated" how bad the economy really was. I repeat....these are the people we want to run health care?
Denise
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235 posted 08-16-2009 10:30 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Here's a Healthcare rationing primer, John.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afuekTcSFfM

Can we spell lobbyist?
Grinch
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236 posted 08-16-2009 11:00 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Quality-Adjusted Life Year

It's a method of measuring the quality of life rated against a standard year of perfect health, which has a rating of 1.0

For instance:

If you had an incurable disease but your life expectancy could be extended by one year of full health by taking a pill your QALY would be 1.0

Under this system 0.0 would mean you were dead 0.5 would mean your quality of life was half of the norm etc. In almost all health care systems the QALY is used to calculate the benefit of any treatment.

The QALY is also used in other situations. One example being in cases where there are competing patients for a single treatment, a heart transplant perhaps. If two or more people could receive the heart their QALY figures can be used to decide who gets it.

It's also used in conjunction with an acceptable cost per year figure to allow or disallow specific treatments. In such cases the individual patients QALY is replaced by a general QALY claimed or proven for the specific treatment.

If the QALY offered by the treatment is 1.0 and the acceptable cost per year figure is $100,000 a treatment that cost $100,000 or less would be deemed acceptable.

It's used in almost all health care systems in some form or other, including those in the US.

.
Grinch
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237 posted 08-16-2009 11:05 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Mike,

That's an old article.

The scheme wasn't suspended; it was actually extended to keep up with demand by trebling the allocated cash available.

.
Balladeer
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238 posted 08-16-2009 11:19 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, but it was forced to be adjusted based on the lack of planning and miscalculations of the government due to their not thinking it through in the first place, which is typical of this government's record so far. I repeat...is this the type of government we want handling our health care?
Denise
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239 posted 08-16-2009 11:27 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

News from the American College of Surgeons:
http://www.facs.org/news/obama081209.html
Balladeer
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240 posted 08-16-2009 11:55 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Good link, Denise! (which will also be ignored)

Obama has based this entire campaign on lies and misinformation. First he claimed that it would actually show a profit and, when the CBO came out and stated that was an impossibility, he changed it to "Well, it will have to be paid for some way (in response to a town hall meeting question about will his plan create higher taxes). He claims that America wants his plan, even though over 70% claim they are satisfied with their current plans. He had declared that he has the endorsement of AARP, which caused AARP to come out immediately and repudiate it. He has painted doctors in the worst possible light, stating how doctors will forego treating a situation until it gets worse and they can make more money from it. He trashes everyone he can without regard for their professionalism or integrity. The fellow he put in charge has declared that "Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously" while Obama claims just the opposite. Specter claims he will never vote for a plan that raises taxes and will vote for it, anyway, even though Obama concedes taxes will have to be raised. The town hall speakers are lying through their teeth and outraged that they are being called on it. This government is "the gang who couldn't shoot straight". The only thing they can hit is their foot....over and over.
Ron
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241 posted 08-16-2009 11:57 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Yes, but it was forced to be adjusted based on the lack of planning and miscalculations of the government due to their not thinking it through in the first place, which is typical of this government's record so far. I repeat...is this the type of government we want handling our health care?

LOL. I'm not sure your correlation between the two would hold up for long, Mike, but my quick answer would have to be a resounding YES. Too much success is a problem, sure, but it's a problem most individuals and businesses would love the chance to face.

Of course the alternative to unexpected success is to do nothing at all. Or, at least, delay doing anything for as long as possible. Gee, that sounds strikingly familiar, doesn't it?
Bob K
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242 posted 08-16-2009 12:07 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


8/16/09


Dear Mike,

quote:


Bob, I can't tell if you are referring to Denise or yourself.    There will come a time shortly when you can't just poke fingers at the past and say, "It's not Obama's fault!" Actually, that day is here.



     I don't think I remember a time when you were able to give a a limit on the time when you were willing to stop blaming FDR.  Kennedy you were actually gracious about, and I thank you for that.  LBJ still came in for occasional less than admiring comment, despite the civil rights bill.  Carter came in for more than excoriation at your hands, not only for activities during his administration but for activities widely admired throughout the rest of the world during the years since his retirement.  I believe you may have actually called President Clinton "President Clinton" once or twice during our conversations about the man.  I confess, I remember either 'Clinton" or the more frequent and more deliberately insulting "slick willie,"  a reference that uses a trope that substitutes the part for the whole.  In this case a deliberate and vulgar anatomical reference for a President of The United States

     I have done my best to avoid speaking of even President Nixon in this fashion, the man who actually did the things that other presidents since have only been accused of doing.

     At the drop of a hat, you have shown yourself willing to blame President Clinton for many of the things that it seems clear that President Bush bore responsibility for well into President Bush's second administration with proof evading even the most subtle theorizing of Niels Bohr's Uncertainty Principle...

     With your Republican affiliation, of course, — the party whose grip on both science and logic remains sketchy, the party for whom Sarah Palin remains the center of hope and direction, and the party whose major spokesman heaped savage scorn and rage upon law breakers and drug addicts until his arrest for oxycontin use made him understand that draconian measures were not really the right way to proceed against people with his particular set of problems — I can't imagine that you'd see any irony or even contradiction in this.

     I would imagine that "the day is here" when the Democrats aren't trying to clean up the problems that the Republicans have quite possibly on purpose created.  I believe I mentioned David Stockman above.  Not before.  And certainly not while there appears to be a causal chain between the Republican  actions and the following economic catastrophe, both predictable and, ahem, predicted.  I told you, if you remember, that the longer we waited to start paying back the debts we were running up the more nasty the solution would look.  

     Your response, if I remember correctly, was "what problems?  It's all in your mind!"

     Welcome to Bob's world, smartie pants.  You could have made it much simpler a year or two ago, but you were in denial.  You could make it reasonably simple now, though certainly painful, but you're still in denial.  You can probably manage to put it off longer, too.  Your party recommends it, as it has right along, and you're nodding like one of those bobble headed dashboard figures as the Republican Party powers that be drive you down the highway.  I guess you figure they have to be right eventually, on the stopped clock being right twice a day theory.  I figure they had their shot with the first bailout bill.  I didn't like it, but I thought that was right.  Maybe I'm wrong this time.  I've got to tell you, I sure hope so.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Grinch
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243 posted 08-16-2009 12:48 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Denise,

I saw the video last night and I think Obama made a few gaffes in the speech regarding the cost of preventative treatment for Diabetes versus subsequent amputation costs.

He said that the preventative treatment costs were a pittance; the total actual costs are estimated to be $7000 to $10000 with an additional $27,000 in aftercare costs.

He also replaced the "physician" in his first example with "surgeon" in the second - the obvious comparison he wanted to make was like-for-like total cost not the total cost of one versus the partial cost of another.

His claim that the physician would actively chose amputation over preventative surgery to make more money is, to my mind, just plain stupid. If he'd have said, "spurred by the fear of litigation" I may have agreed.

Finally he got the total cost of amputation wrong. It's $30,000 to $60,000 total cost for the amputation and $43,000 to $63,000 for additional aftercare costs.

I got the gist of what he meant though, which is that prevention is better, and cheaper, than the subsequently required cure.

.
Denise
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244 posted 08-16-2009 01:37 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Nobody would disagree that prevention isn't cheaper. It's not always and either/or situation though, as the letter from the American College of Surgeons states.

He has to stop demonizing everybody, from the protestors, to the insurance companies, to the doctors and surgeons. It's just politically stupid.  
Huan Yi
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245 posted 08-16-2009 03:53 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


The ‘Preventive Care’ Myth


http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTA3MTVjOWM4MWVkNTk3NDQ0Mjg3MDVkMGY4M2EwMWY=


.


Denise
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246 posted 08-16-2009 05:25 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I stand corrected, John. Thanks for sharing the link.
Denise
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247 posted 08-16-2009 05:29 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Here's another eye-opening article:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/death_panel_is_not_in_the_bill.html
Denise
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248 posted 08-16-2009 05:38 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Cool video, including some scenes from Philadelphia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LBU2UHgqsQ
Grinch
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249 posted 08-16-2009 06:33 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


A very good article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_Universe_Theory

 
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