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Birth of a notion
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Birth of a notion |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia 
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Just how 'fringe' is this thing? http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/07/23/daily_show_takes_on_dobbs.html#030659a Sorry I haven't been able to participate -- but I want to get some reaction to this -- and preferably from more than just the usual suspects... come on lurkers! I hope to return soon.  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Jon is doing what Jon does...being an extremely talented and funny guy. Personally, I have given little input to the question of Obama's birth. It's almost like ignoring Capone's record of murders, extortion, racketeering, bootlegging and overall nogoodesness and going after him for income tax evasion. His actions of quadrupling the deficit and attempt at destroying the health care system as we know it ranks a lot higher up the importance ladder than where he was born to me. I have seen nothing in the local papers here about Obama's birth for a very long time, with the exception of the use of a word which normally indicates that one's parents were not married at the time of a child's birth. What I HAVE seen is his stance on a stimulus bill that has not stopped the unemployment level from rising, a cap and trade plan to raise the taxes of every American who uses energy, and a health plan that will give grandma pills to ease her pain instead of treatment to prolong her life....and Miami is a cut-and-dried Democratic stronghold! Go figure..... |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
I enjoyed watching this clip! Thanks for posting it. MHO, it just proves how some people refuse to acknowledge truth when they already have embraced multiple layers of misinformation and outright lies, to further their own bizarre agendas. Good to see you, Reb. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I enjoy Jon's humor even when I don't agree with his views. He is talented. Unfortunately I can't view the clip until I get home from work. But I was curious as to whether or not you would list some of the multiple layers of misinformation and outright lies that some are embracing causing them not to acknowledge the truth in furtherance of their bizarre agendas, Midnitesun? |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
I will Denise, though it may take a day. Cancer chemotherapy side effects are nailing me hard today, I'm a bit shaky and weak. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Whenever you can is fine. I hope you are feeling better soon. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Grandkids Okay, Denise? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
They are all doing well, Bob, thanks for asking. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZmJhMzlmZWFhOTQ3YjUxMDE2YWY4ZDMzZjZlYTVmZmU=&w=MA== |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Showing his birth certificate wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference Denise. Fruitcakes intent on perpetuating this particular conspiracy theory wouldn't believe it even if they saw it. They'd just adjust their tinfoil hats and start screaming "forgery". . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: This goes way beyond just his refusal to release his birth certificate, Grinch. He has spent upwards of $900,000 to keep any and all records from being released, from his birth certificate on through to his school records, university applications, passport and selective service records, medical records, etc. Why would he do that?He has shrouded his entire personal history and sealed every document and record of any kind that could validate his assertions about himself. That doesn't instill confidence in people that he isn't hiding something. What, we don't know, but he seems to be hiding something. And the certification of live birth (not a birth certificate - they are two different documents) that was posted on the DailyKos site and then on Obama's Fight the Smears site, listed his father's race as African. That was not one of the racial designations used back in 1961. The designation used then was Negro. That, in addition to some document experts stating that the certification online showed numerous signs of tampering leads people to believe that it isn't the genuine article and that the original birth certificate needs to be examined. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: quote: That was certainly fast.  |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
We're talking about two different documents, Ron. The one I was referring to was the one posted online, the 'Certification of Live Birth', not the 'Birth Certificate' on file in Hawaii. It was the disparities found in the online 'Certification', during the campagin, that led to the request for the release of the 'Certificate'. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: And, I dare say exactly the same outcome. Some people asked to see proof that Obama was a citizen and the Certification of Live Birth was released. A couple of numpty "experts" using a jpg image posted on the internet adjusted their tinfoil hats and pronounced it a definite forgery. If his birth certificate were posted on the Interweb what's the betting those same numpty "experts" would be firing up Photoshop, between episodes of Star Trek, intent on proving it a forgery. yIn tIq je chep |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Posting even the 'certification' online was a joke, nothing but a diversion, as was the 'verification' of it by the DailyKos, Snopes, and Factcheck. That shouldn't have been the way it was handled and no one's asking for the original birth 'certificate' to be posted online. It should be presented to a judge, Congress, or other controlling legal authority, the way John McCain presented his birth certificate and other corroborating documentation when it was requested. Say what you will about the documents experts that analyzed the online jpg 'certification'. They didn't put 'African' for Obama Sr.'s race instead of 'Negro'. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
I am not sure of the point of this. If The President's history was presented to you completely to your satisfaction — a situation that I do not believe possible, and would not even attempt to try — I cannot imagine it making any difference at all in the way you speak about him or his policies. I don't believe that it would make a difference to Glenn Beck or Lou Dobbs either; it is simply something has no national utility except as a partisan attack on the man, and one essentially without contact at that. Getting involved with it simply makes me feel that way that Glenn Beck and Lou Dobbs act, and I'd rather spend my time seeing what I can help build rather than what or whom I can tear down. There is an economic challenge in front of us. There is a human rights challenge in front of us. There is a constitutional challenge in front of us, for we very badly need to roll back the inroads the PATRIOT Act as made into our freedoms as Americans, and we need to confront the balance between Congressional and Presidential power. There are international issues of importance in front of us as well. While those people who wish to continue the discussion of President Obama's birth continue endlessly to do so, I suggest that the rest of us talk about issues that are not endlessly acrimonious, or at least may admit to some sort of solution with the application of some effort, thought and goodwill. Say, which are better, Republican or Democrats. That question is much more open to rational discussion. Or, Is there a God? Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. Have I asked anybody recently, What's the point of all this? If I haven't, I really really should. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Truth and transparency are the point of this, Bob. He hasn't provided much transparency, so how are we to know the truth? I think we do have a right to the truth, whether anything comes of it or not. I do hope in the future though that candidates are required to show documentation when entering a race, instead of just signing a card stating they are eligible. I'd also like to see the Supreme Court define the term 'natural born'. I tend to believe the Framers were influenced by the definition used in the Law of Nations by Vittal, a person born in a country of 2 parents who are citizens of that country at the time of the child's birth, someone who does not have dual citizenship at birth, and possible divided loyalties. Obama has stated on his campaign website that he was born with British citizenship through his father, and he stated that he was a citizen through the 14th Amendment. He never said he was a 'natural born' citizen, a requirement to be President. The 14th Amendment doesn't grant anyone 'natural born' status. It defines some as naturalized and some as citizen at birth, neither of which is natural born (through nature, not through statute). But since the Framers didn't define the term, perhaps because they didn't think they needed to, that it was simply something that was understood, the Supreme Court should render a decision. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Speaking of government violating privacy, and Glenn Beck, whom I haven't heard mention anything about the eligibility issue, how about this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy8wgS69xjI |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
There is a constitutional challenge in front of us, for we very badly need to roll back the inroads the PATRIOT Act as made into our freedoms as Americans Bob, if you're concerned about the inroads of the Patriot Act, how do you feel about the inroads of governmental intrusion into our personal and business lives that have occurred under Obama? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Here's a just released possible headache for Obama. It would need authentication, of course, through the courts. http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105764 |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Mike, The ones that I'm aware of are possible by the PATRIOT Act, especially the ability to designate who is an enemy alien, and warrentless wiretaps, and no notification searches. I thought the act was unconstitutional under Bush, I still think it is under Obama, and I'm quite upset that both parties are so spineless as to let the think stand. Not to mention the various aspects of the law that may impact on habeas. I told you that there wouldn't always be a Republican administration, (which I was rightfully worried about) and that the law would not always be administered by your pals. Your comment was a request for me to tell you which of my civil rights had been damaged. That was a foolish way to respond then, and it's foolish now. The problem isn't party, it's the darn law. Then we can fight about party. Which of my civil liberties had been damaged indeed. Yours, Bob Kaven |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Not a good comment here, pard me. [This message has been edited by Bob K (08-03-2009 01:20 AM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Worse than calling my comments foolish? Must have been a doozy! |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
They ran too long and were provocative. The PATRIOT Act and the damage done by it have not been undone by President Obama. Most of the assaults on freedom that are possible from my perspective these days stem from that law. Your may be different certainly, but I am angry at the President for not trying to undo the Security State created by that law. I am angry at the Congress for not seeing the need for the repeal of that law. I think that each side thinks that to repeal it would make them seem "soft on terror" and would throw the election to the other side. I have hopes that a decent Supreme court will throw out substantial blocks of it as being unconstitutional, but it won't be soon. Am I answering your question, Mike? I don't want to be evasive here. Your upset about the way things may go today under that law and future laws predicated upon the inroads made possible into the constitution because of it says that your support of that law was probably for partisan reasons. Otherwise you would not be upset by today's situation. You would feel cheery and supportive, as you did then. At that time I thought the bill was a bad bill. I thought that it was bad no matter who presented it. If you don't like my choice of words, I'm sorry my choice upset you. I'm sorry I used the word at all. By shifting the focus onto Obama rather than the bill, you may be able to get Obama out of office, but the bill would probably remain. By focusing on the bill, there is some chance of getting rid of it or some part of it. I would be pleased if your main interest was in getting rid of the bill, which is a danger to constitutional government rather than Obama, whose danger — without the bill — seems to be to Republican rule. Sorry to have gone on so long. Bob |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "You could be forgiven for thinking that a serious campaign is afoot - aided and abetted by the national Republican Party - to question Barack Obama's citizenship. Over the past two weeks, an inordinate amount of news coverage has been afforded to "birthers," conspiracy theorists who claim that the President was not born in Hawaii, as his birth records indicate, but in Kenya. It is not Obama's right-wing opponents, however, who are devoting the most attention to this obscure, Internet-driven "movement," if one can even use that label to describe such a paranoid groupuscule. Rather, it's liberals, bent on portraying their conservative opponents as extremists - and changing the subject to help a President under increasing scrutiny for the substance of his policies - who are driving this story." http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/08/05/2009-08-05_liberals_birt her_obsession.html#ixzz0NJfRwQPJ . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Bob, I saw no problem with the Patriot Act, just like all of the Democrats who voted for it. As far as upsetting me, don't worry about that, Bob. You don't have that power. Best to you... |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
What a horrible notion: Donald as President and Sarah as Vice (president, I mean). Or vice versa, an even worse nightmare. And lo and behold, they potentially seemed be in harmony over one of the nuttier Evil O theories: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/The-Vote/2011/0410/Did-Sarah-Palin-just-join-Donald-Trump-as-a-birther Do these people not have better things to do than worry about the trivialities of where someone was born? Does it really matter what the Framers said on this point? Personally, I think Donald should jump off one of his skyscrapers before Sarah tires of murdering moose and bears and takes to shooting ducks. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Does it matter what the framers said? Does it matter what congress says? Does it matter what the constitution says? There seems to be a recurrent theme in many of your comments, mb, but it really doesn't matter |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Actually it matters to me Yes of course there is a recurrent theme, and it's a theme that is generally responsive in nature. By which I mean that I have a tendency to challenge statements that make assertions based upon blind acceptance of human laws (especially antiquated law) and statute rather than commonsense, morality and compassion (to name but a few). Imv over the centuries far too many injustices have been perpetuated by to use of petty legal points, outdated law, and partisan statute. I think it's essential to question the relevance and appropriateness of our laws and precedences at all times. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I couldn't agree more. But, having questioned them, what then? Does one work to change what needs to be changed? Or does one choose to simply ignore the laws and precedences they don't like? Isn't the word for that anarchy? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I think it's essential to question the relevance and appropriateness of our laws and precedences at all times. I couldn't agree more. But, having questioned them, what then? Does one work to change what needs to be changed? Or does one choose to simply ignore the laws and precedences they don't like? Isn't the word for that anarchy? "precedences" - geez, I must have been half asleep. Don't I mean "precedents" - maybe it's just a senior moment. Well Ron, to be honest I wasn't really going beyond the point of expressing mild frustration at the propensity to simply quote law and precedent without, as it were, engaging one's brain. However as you invite me to go further, I suppose the idealists answer to your question is that one works within the system (even if that means the very laws that are suspect) to change what needs to be changed. The pragmatic answer is more complex. Partly, it depends who you are I guess. Some might suggest that one you have worked the system to the point where you are President, then, although not above the law, you at least have a position of authority that allows you to push the boundaries (as with Libya maybe). Then of couse there are times where one might argue that the law is so very out of touch with social acceptability, and is held there only by minority vested interests perhaps, that something more forceful or revolutionary is the "only" option. Of course. it gets very complicated then, far more complicated than I have time for now. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: LOL. That's funny, because I just assumed it was one of those crazy English spelling things. quote: Or one might argue that those sworn to uphold the law should be held to an even higher standard. Mind you, I don't think the President broke any laws. 'Cause if he did those Republicans would be all over him like flies on dead meat. Y'all remember Nixon? And that was back when most politicians arguably cared more about hurting their country than boosting their party. You know, the long lost Good Ol' Days? |
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