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Passions in Poetry

How to Lie Without Lying

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Balladeer
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0 posted 07-16-2009 05:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


OBAMA: There are 50 million Americans without health insurance

45.7 million of the inhabitants of the U.S. are uninsured. From that figure..

6.4 million are a Medicare undercount
9.3 million are not U.S. citizens
10.1 million earn over threetimes the poverty level
5.0 million are childless adults between the ages of 18-34
That leaves 10.6 million uninsured, who will still receive treatment in cases of emergencies. http://keithhennessey.com/2009/04/09/how-many-uninsured-people-need-additional-help-from-taxpayers/
How to lie without lying....lesson number 1

OBAMA: People will be able to keep their own private health insurance.

The provision would indeed outlaw individual private coverage. Under the Orwellian header of "Protecting The Choice To Keep Current Coverage," the "Limitation On New Enrollment" section of the bill clearly states:

"Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day" of the year the legislation becomes law.

So we can all keep our coverage, just as promised — with, of course, exceptions: Those who currently have private individual coverage won't be able to change it. Nor will those who leave a company to work for themselves be free to buy individual plans from private carriers.

The nonpartisan Lewin Group estimated in April that 120 million or more Americans could lose their group coverage at work and end up in such a program. That would leave private carriers with 50 million or fewer customers. This could cause the market to, as Lewin Vice President John Sheils put it, "fizzle out altogether."
What wasn't known until now is that the bill itself will kill the market for private individual coverage by not letting any new policies be written after the public option becomes law.
The legislation is also likely to finish off health savings accounts, a goal that Democrats have had for years. They want to crush that alternative because nothing gives individuals more control over their medical care, and the government less, than HSAs.
With HSAs out of the way, a key obstacle to the left's expansion of the welfare state will be removed.
The public option won't be an option for many, but rather a mandate for buying government care. A free people should be outraged at this advance of soft tyranny.
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=332548165656854

So that's how to lie without lying, Obama style. Yes, you can keep your private insurance. You just can't change it, update it, or get rid of it and buy one from another private company....right there on page 16 of Obama's health bill. The day the bill is passed, no private insurance carries will be able to issue new policies.....guess how long they will be in business? If they are YOUR carrier, you will have to buy the government insurance once they go belly up.
How to lie without lying...lesson number 2

OBAMA:  No family will pay higher tax rates than they would have paid in the 1990s.  (Obama's  campaign promise)

The top rate in New York City, home to many of the state's wealthiest people, would be 58.68 percent, the Washington-based Tax Foundation said in a report yesterday.
That means New York's top earners, small-business owners and most dynamic entrepreneurs will be facing new fees and penalties.
The non-partisan think-tank calculated the average local tax rate in New York State at 1.7 percent, and combined it with the 8.97 percent that high-bracket state taxpayers will shell out in 2011, when the health care plan is set to take effect. Tack on the 39.6 percent federal tax rate, 2.9 percent for Medicare and 5.4 percent for the health care "surtax," and the figure is 56.92 percent for the Empire State.
In New York City, the top tax rate is 3.65 percent, making the Big Apple's top combined rate even higher.
The $544 billion tax hike would violate one of President Obama's ironclad campaign promises: No family will pay higher tax rates than they would have paid in the 1990s.
Under the bill, three new tax brackets would be created for high earners, with a top rate of 45 percent for families making more than $1 million. That would be the highest income-tax rate since 1986, when the top rate was 50 percent.

The legislation is especially onerous for business owners, in part because it penalizes employers with a payroll bigger than $400,000 some 8 percent of wages if they don't offer health care.

But the cost of the buy-in to the program may be so prohibitive that it will dissuade owners from growing their businesses -- a scary prospect in the midst of a recession.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07162009/news/regionalnews/dem_health_rx_a_poion_pill_in_ny_179525.htm

Oops! Guess he DID actually lie on that one.

Be proud, Obama supporters. Your man is doing what our opponents in two world wars couldn't.
Grinch
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quote:
Your man is doing what our opponents in two world wars couldn't.


I agree Mike, your country is probably doomed but Obama shouldn’t get all the credit, the foundations for the debacle that is the American economy were laid a long time before he took office.

.
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2 posted 07-16-2009 06:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Glad you found a sentence to comment on in that entire entry, grinch. Can't say I blame you for ignoring the rest.

"Sure, I shot him, your honor, but he would have died of old age someday, anyway".
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3 posted 07-16-2009 06:20 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Can't say I blame you for ignoring the rest.


If something’s worth doing..

Seriously though Mike there’s so much twaddle in your post I didn’t know where to start. Perhaps you could select just one particular point to discuss, I like kippers but too much of a good thing and all that.

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4 posted 07-16-2009 06:28 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Nah, never mind. Anything we bring up that is contra-Obama magically becomes twaddle, unimportant, or a non-issue. If  you can't find anything there, especially the private health care bait and switch, I'm not up to your games. Besides, you're just having fun. Don't concern yourself with my twaddle...it's not important to you, anyway. Have a good evening or day or whatever it is over there.
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5 posted 07-16-2009 06:50 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


It's evening Mike - almost midnight.

.
Ron
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LOL. I hear the tax rate in Canada is going up, too, Mike? And maybe in Sudan?

Yea, I know, those probably don't have a lot to do with anyone's Presidential campaign promises. I figure they're at least as pertinent as New York's, though.

quote:
... who will still receive treatment in cases of emergencies.

That's not the solution, Mike.

That's the problem.

The title of this thread strikes me as ironically poignant. Any good points you might make, Mike, always seem to get lost in your recurrent attempts to sound like Rush Limbaugh. Have you ever tried to be unbiased? You might find it a lot more persuasive. Spite, I think, only sells to those already spiteful.


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7 posted 07-16-2009 09:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I will be one of those forced by my union and employer into the federal plan if passed, with no option to keep what I currently have. I guess the same is true for all city, state and federal employees (with the exceptions being the President and Congress, who can keep the coverage they have), and most likely true for many others in the private sector as well if the premiums for the government plan are cheaper initially (and they will make sure that they are) than what can be purchased from the private insurers, and especially after the "Limitation on New Enrollment" provisions put the private insurers out of business.

If they pass this I think it should only be with the stipulation that Congress and the Executive Branch and their families must also be subjected to it.

What demented minds were able to come up with this absolute nonsense?  
http://www.ourcountrydeservesbetter.com/files/House-Democrats-Health-Plan.pdf
Balladeer
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8 posted 07-17-2009 01:02 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Tried to be unbiased, Ron? Surely you jest.

Obama stood in front of the American people and proclaimed that he would not destroy the private insurance companies. He then slipped in a provision in his health bill that private insurance companies would not be able to write new policies the day his health plan went into effect. That was a blatant lie.

He told people they could keep their private insurance. What he didn't tell them was they could not upgrade to change it to another agency unless it was  the government agency. That was a blatant deception.

How many other things have gotten slipped into these bills no one reads before they sign? We know now how much pork got slipped into the stimulus package. How much has been slipped into the cap and trade bill?

You think I should look at these things with an unbiased eye? How could anyone not recognize them for what they are and call themselves non-biased? They are what they are and if you, or anyone else, do not care to recognize them as such, then I suggest you are the biased ones, to the point of deliberate and selective blindness.

No one expected Obama to solve the national problems in the first 6 or 7 months but then no one expected him to quadruple the national debt, take over private industries, and putthe insurance companies out of business, either. Obama is playing a "Let's try this and see how it works" philosophy, with no thought to what these things will do the American people or the country.

If you go way back to when Obama was elected, you will find statements from me stating that, like it or not, Obama was now president and it was our obligation to give him a chance to see what he could do - which almost gave Bob K a heart attack that I said such a thing. So what has Obama done? Broken almost every campaign promise he made, for starters. Spent billions on pork when he promised there would never be any in his bills. Has business so worried about controls and rising taxes that they are downsizing and laying off workers at a time when unemployment is through the roof. Tries to pass his cap and trade bill which will lead to more unemployment and higher taxes. Tries to pass a health care plan that will destroy private insurance and put everyone under the control of the government.

What he is trying to do will cause extreme hardships and do possible irrevocable harm to the country and you feel I should look at it in an unbiased way? Sorry, I care about the country a little too much for that and I grieve for what he is doing to her.
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9 posted 07-17-2009 01:19 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

This was Joe Biden today...

The event, sponsored by the AARP – which supports the Obama administration’s plan – was attended by mostly AARP members who were bussed in for the meeting.
Biden told the group that the Obama health plan will not eliminate people’s ability to choose their health care insurance and that people who cannot afford insurance will be covered by the plan.


The same blatant lie being told once again and they don't even care, knowing that the mainstream press won't call them on it and who cares what the public feels about it?
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10 posted 07-17-2009 10:00 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
Have you ever tried to be unbiased? You might find it a lot more persuasive. Spite, I think, only sells to those already spiteful.

At last something interesting in these interminable anti-Obama threads.

Ron is so very right.  The more biassed, spiteful and partisan one sounds the less convincing one is in persuading others of your point of view.  I learned that forcefully in a recent wind farm debate.

Which, given that you Mike are normally such a happy-go-lucky, easygoing sorta guy, and usually so acute in your perception, makes me wonder whether these threads are really about persuasion at all or simply an outlet for your frustration.  Whatever, you're gradually succeeding in doing to me what McCain and Palin could not do, and that's making me wish the GOP had got in.  Surely Obama's sins must end somewhere?  Or you might get tired?  Or bored?  Or go on vacation?  I have a spare room with no computer if you'd care for a nice trip to the UK ... there's a lock on the door too, lol   
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11 posted 07-17-2009 10:53 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, Moonbeam, if I'm normally so acute in my perceptions, why do you think I'm not here?  

Venting my frustrations? You may be right. I do get frustrated when I see constant attacks on Republicans for eight years and people like Obama getting free passes for whatever he does, including open lying to the public. I get frustrated when otherwise intelligent people simply close their eyes and minds to whatever they don't wish to acknowledge.

Perhaps I shouldn't. There is certainly no frustration in my personal life. I AM a fairly happy-go-lucky guy and have a life I'm satisfied with, certainly luckier than many. Even this health care issue doesn't touch me personally, with the VA picking up my bills. I just happen to love this little piece of dirt called the US and hate what Obama is trying to do to it and hate the way the press gives him free passes, instead of being objective. Maybe I should just stifle the passion and wait for the day I can say, "Told you so". It really doesn't matter here, anyway, does it? PIP - where the emperor is always finely dressed (as long as he's a liberal).

You're right, though. These threads serve no useful purpose in the long run. I should go back to Atlas Shrugged, where Dagny, when refusing to debate some "expert" on national policies and was chastized for it, replied, "You fools! Why do you think I consider the matter debateable?" Who is John Galt, anyway?
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12 posted 07-17-2009 11:10 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

These threads DO make a difference, Michael. It may be the only place where some people are exposed to the truth, since truth is in such short supply elsewhere.
Ron
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quote:
He then slipped in a provision in his health bill that private insurance companies would not be able to write new policies the day his health plan went into effect.
...
He told people they could keep their private insurance. What he didn't tell them was they could not upgrade to change it to another agency unless it was the government agency.


That might be true, Mike. I honestly don't know.

But here's the thing.

When you talk about things that I recognize as simple spite, like New York City's tax rate somehow making a liar out of Obama or a breakdown of the 50 million Americans without insurance made into something it's obviously not, then I pretty much stop listening to the rest of what you have to say. I really don't know what the new health care bill says about individual private coverage, but I have to guess this, too, has been twisted into something it isn't.

How many individuals in America really pay for their own insurance any way? Less than one percent? I have to suspect it's a lot less than the 10.6 million that are of no concern because they'll "still receive treatment in cases of emergencies." It's probably even less than the 5 million who are of no concern because they're between 18 and 34 and have no kids? How many people paying for their own insurance does it take, Mike, to make it a real issue? More or less than those without any insurance?

I know I should go do my own research to discover the truth about individual private coverage. You haven't really given me any reason to make the time to do that, though, Mike. It's much easier to assume the things you mention that I don't know much about probably follow the same course as the things I recognize as simple spite. If you (or those whom you choose to quote) are not going to be forthright with me about everything, I have to expect you to not be forthright about anything. It's all about credibility, Mike. Talking about Obama's control over New York City's tax rate, and why that makes him a liar, doesn't do a lot to bolster yours (or those you quote).

FTR, I think there are terrible, terrible things wrong with this rush to a national health care system, not the least of which is the inane concern over coverage instead of treatment. There's very little about the plan that I find right.

However, the precise number of people without health insurance, and how many are above or below the poverty level, really isn't on my list of concerns. And trying to twist Obama's words into subtle lies when no blatant ones can be found probably isn't going to sway me one way or the other.

I think the current plan is a problem because the plan is a problem, not because it's being advocated by someone I don't like.


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14 posted 07-17-2009 01:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I really don't know what the new health care bill says about individual private coverage, but I have to guess this, too, has been twisted into something it isn't.

Thank you, Ron, for proving a  valuable point. Obama's speeches where he claims not to want to destroy private health coverage is on record. You can watch it on video if you missed it on tv. The inclusion into the bill of the restriction of private coverage companies to sell any new policies after the health bill is implemented is on record, there on page 16, the same words I used at the opening of the topic. There can be no clearer indication of Obama lying to the public to get his health bill passed and yet you will claim, without knowing anything about it, that it must be twisted into something it isn't. Funny that I can't recall any instance where you felt that anything derogatory toward Bush might have been twisted but I CAN recall your irritation at Bush for being lied to.

Moonbeam was right. It IS frustrating. Here we have an issue that is about as cut and dried as an issue can be, all documented with no escape. What responses did I get? From you, it was about my personal bias. From grinch, it was too confusing for him to understand. From moonbeam, it was about my frustration. LR and BobK were no-shows, possibly too busy with real life or perhaps smart enough to realize it was a no-win situation. Not one person had the honesty or the chutzpah to say, "Ok, that was not good on his part",at the very least. Not one....and it IS a little frustrating to know that the same people avoiding this would have jumped all over a Republican president attempting the same deception.

It's also frustrating because it shows very clearly that there will be no intelligent political threads here. When people use subterfuge to avoid such a glaring example of dishonesty and deception, the bias is obviously too strong to allow any type of reasonable discourse....and I think that's a shame.
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15 posted 07-17-2009 02:01 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I know I should go do my own research to discover the truth about individual private coverage.


Allow me Ron.

I’ve read the bill and the section Mike supplied which suggests that private cover is going to be outlawed is, as you surmised, quoted out of context. Basically the claim that private cover won’t be allowed is incorrect, misleading, an error and other similar words that may or may not be contained in the title of this thread.



The whole section is pretty convoluted and boring but it boils down to this:

If you have an existing policy the current bill doesn’t apply, if you amend or take out new cover after the bill is enacted the insurer must comply with the bill.

Not quite as sexy as claiming that private insurance is going to be outlawed but it happens to be the truth.

.
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16 posted 07-17-2009 02:04 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
These threads DO make a difference, Michael. It may be the only place where some people are exposed to the truth, since truth is in such short supply elsewhere.


Please see above post.

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17 posted 07-17-2009 02:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Let me understand, grinch. Are you saying that these words...

"Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day" of the year the legislation becomes law.

do  not appear in that section? What interpretation do you get from them?
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18 posted 07-17-2009 02:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

“Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan. ”

This is on page 19. Same question, please....

I have not said that Obama will outlaw private coverage. He will simply make it impossible for private coverage to exist.
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19 posted 07-17-2009 02:57 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Of course those words appear Mike. They just don’t mean what you said they do, which is pretty clear when you read the paragraph above and around them.

That’s what I meant by “taken out of context”. Go and read the paragraph above the one you quoted (the paragraph your quote is talking about), you’ll find that it’s simply stating that existing policies will be “Grandfathered”.

Grandfathered is a legal term – in this case it means that an existing policy inherits previous rights that cannot be affected by new legislation.

Your paragraph is a continuation.

All existing policies will be grandfathered ..

Except where enrolment is in the year of the bills enactment.

Saying that private insurance is going to be outlawed is complete twaddle – the evidence is right there in black and white Mike.

Post the whole section and I'll explain it word by word if you like.

.
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20 posted 07-17-2009 03:23 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


http://www.nowpublic.com/world/bill-does-not-make-private-health-insurance-illegal

This may help.

.
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21 posted 07-17-2009 04:01 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The point remains Grinch, doesn't it, if your policy ends due to a job change you can't get a new private policy but must go with the government plan?
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22 posted 07-17-2009 04:56 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
It really doesn't matter here, anyway, does it? PIP - where the emperor is always finely dressed (as long as he's a liberal).

Oh I dunno about that Mike - there's a pretty good cross-section here at PiP I think.  And even if people of your persuasion are in the minority, it's a case of "outnumbered but not outfaced" I suspect.
quote:
These threads DO make a difference, Michael. It may be the only place where some people are exposed to the truth,

Maybe it IS the truth Denise, but that's not the point at issue.

What you can't seem to grasp is that presentation is everything if you want to make a difference.  It's hard to take a rant seriously even if it does have some nuggets of truth in it.
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23 posted 07-17-2009 05:00 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
The point remains Grinch, doesn't it, if your policy ends due to a job change you can't get a new private policy but must go with the government plan?


That’s not true either Denise.

Which section of the bill made you think that?

.

[This message has been edited by Grinch (07-17-2009 05:31 PM).]

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LOL. Thanks, Grinch, for the research assist. It's so hard to find the time to squash all these conspiracy theories and still get anything useful done.

I can't say that I'm surprised to discover all the hoopla is over grandfathered policies that will no longer be allowed to be written after (or, I hope, a big if) the bill is passed. That passage is basically saying that, going forward, all policies have to follow the strictures laid out in the bill. That they allow older policies they consider inadequate at all is fairly generous of them. It's hardly surprising they don't want to let new policies that are inadequate to continue to be written.

quote:
Funny that I can't recall any instance where you felt that anything derogatory toward Bush might have been twisted but I CAN recall your irritation at Bush for being lied to.

Actually, Mike, I think I stuck up for Bush a couple of times, especially in the early years. I didn't do it then because I liked Bush, just as I don't stick up for Obama now because I particularly like him. I'm usually the most likely to jump in when the "anything derogatory" just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'm surprised you can't see why the tax rates in New York City and the breakdown of uninsured Americans qualifies?
 
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